Iron Deficiency Alters Serum Prolactin (high Prolactin)

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

tankasnowgod said:
The study you posted to start off this thread measured iron deficiency in infants. Babies are born with very high iron stores (ferritin usually measures about 400 ng/ml), but they "grow" into it. Since they grow so much, children usually have declining iron levels until about 12. As such, a study on iron deficiency in infants and toddlers really won't give much insight into what a good iron level is for an adult, as infants are growing rapidly, and adults aren't really growing at all.

The reason Vitamin C leads to more iron absorption is due to the fact that it binds with iron, and this complex is better absorbed by the body, at least in single meal studies with non-heme iron. The longer term study of 16 weeks did not find a consistent raising of ferritin levels with vitamin C taken with meals, and in fact, some participants saw a significant drop in ferritin.

From the Zacharsky studies and other material I have read from Weinberg and such, the range of 25-75ng/ml for ferritin seems to be the range that drastically reduce heart disease, cancer, and other degenerative diseases. Again, if you have studies showing that ferritin in the range of 75-150 can be beneficial for the markers you mention in adults, I would be interested in seeing them.

tankasnowgod · Feb 20, 2019

Douglas Ek said:
The fact that I myself had high prolactin and in my opinion low ferritin at 50 and once I raised it closer to 100 my prolactin went down my tsh went down I felt healthier. There’s a lot of other people here with exact same symptoms and results like i mentioned dezertfox had low ferritin at 30 and high prolactin above range. He was experiencing hair loss. Iron removed his hairloss symptoms and lowered prolactin. I have 30 other private messages since 1 year back here on ray peat forum with people contacting me with high tsh, high prolactin and low ferritin. All same thing happens when they take iron. Prolactin goes down. Symptoms goes away. What is your point?
Dont be stubborn and ignorant
Obviouslt a lot of people are struggling with this and have low thyroid function and high prolactin from low iron stores. You’re just ruining their lives propagating blood donations and aspirin, coffee with food. Just because it works for you doesnt mean it works for everyone.
Google iron and dopamine NCBI and read all the studies.

So far, your only "proof" is your own testimonial. In the exact same message, you then say "Just because it works for you doesnt mean it works for everyone."

This is your idea, I think you should be the one to offer studies to back up your point.

Also, I asked for anything that would back up your idea of higher ferritin levels being beneficial. That is the exact opposite of being "stubborn and ignorant."

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

tankasnowgod said:
So far, your only "proof" is your own testimonial. In the exact same message, you then say "Just because it works for you doesnt mean it works for everyone."

This is your idea, I think you should be the one to offer studies to back up your point.

Also, I asked for anything that would back up your idea of higher ferritin levels being beneficial. That is the exact opposite of being "stubborn and ignorant."

Higher levels?
Ive said previously 50-100 give me evidence of anything under 50 being more beneficial than over 50.
And its me and 30 other people
Ask @sunraiser for another anecdotal evidence
So fed up with stubborn people like you
Time will tell just wait and see.

Cirion · Feb 20, 2019

I have to say, the fact that all 30 people he has helped has had the same benefit from increasing iron is proof enough for me.

tankasnowgod · Feb 20, 2019

Douglas Ek said:
I mentioned 50-100 in the past I mentioned 75-150 because I honestly believe if you have a good antioxidant back up and storage you can handle those levels perfectly. Your body is smart and has systems to prevent the toxic effects only when you get low of these other nutrients so the defence system gets weak iron becomes a problem or if you have a hereditary iron disorder. Show me studies saying ferritin at 25 is good.
Also you asked me several times to post studies showing positive effects of iron and s good amount of it.

Iron deficiency also causes low dopamine which would in turn increase serotonin and lower HPTA function.
Brain iron and dopamine receptor function. - PubMed - NCBI

Iron Deficiency is Linked to Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

Brain iron and dopamine receptor function. - PubMed - NCBI
Brain iron levels in attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder: a pilot MRI study. - PubMed - NCBI
Iron and attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder: What is the empirical evidence so far? A systematic review of the literature. - PubMed - NCBI
Food intake and serum levels of iron in children and adolescents with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder

Iron Deficiency is Linked to Autism

Ferritin and iron levels in children with autistic disorder. - PubMed - NCBI
Association between psychiatric disorders and iron deficiency anemia among children and adolescents: a nationwide population-based study

Iron Deficiency Causes Mental Retardation and Delayed Development

Long-term developmental outcome of infants with iron deficiency. - PubMed - NCBI
Poorer behavioral and developmental outcome more than 10 years after treatment for iron deficiency in infancy. - PubMed - NCBI
Association between psychiatric disorders and iron deficiency anemia among children and adolescents: a nationwide population-based study

Iron Deficiency is Associated with Depression/Anxiety

Poorer behavioral and developmental outcome more than 10 years after treatment for iron deficiency in infancy. - PubMed - NCBI
Neurobehavioral analysis of developmental iron deficiency in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
Association between psychiatric disorders and iron deficiency anemia among children and adolescents: a nationwide population-based study

Iron Deficiency Compromises Immune Function

https://www.jpeds.com/article/S0022-3476(75)80221-6/abstract
NYAS Publications
The effect of iron deficiency anemia on the function of the immune system. - PubMed - NCBI
[Iron, infection and anemia--a classical triad]. - PubMed - NCBI

Iron Deficiency Causes Skin Problems and Poor Wound Healing

The role of iron in the skin and cutaneous wound healing
Assessment and nutritional aspects of wound healing. - PubMed - NCBI

Iron Deficiency and Autoimmune Diseases

The effect of iron deficiency anemia on the function of the immune system. - PubMed - NCBI
Hepcidin, a putative mediator of anemia of inflammation, is a type II acute-phase protein. - PubMed - NCBI
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1079979600903498?np=y
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9792551
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2196102/

Iron Deficiency is Linked to Rheumatoid Arthritis

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8547124
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1003985/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3152850/

Iron Deficiency Impairs Thyroid Function

https://thyroidresearchjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13044-016-0031-0
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12487769
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6703092
https://thyroidresearchjournal.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13044-016-0031-0
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20172476
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12487769

Iron Deficiency Decreases Body Temperature

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6703092?dopt=Abstract
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7435650
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7070226

Iron Deficiency is Linked to Heart Failure

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15007793?access_num=15007793&link_type=MED&dopt=Abstract
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.3181/00379727-218-44306
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21629210
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18687241
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22948485
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21629210
http://www.clinsci.org/content/109/3/277.long
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040798/
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa0908355
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4359359/

Iron Deficiency Increases Risk of Stroke

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4836595/#B34
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8659486/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3857285/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17974743

Iron Deficiency May Cause Restless Leg Syndrome (Tied to dopamine motor-function basal ganglia)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24001490
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23494945
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15956009
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23780623
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25201131

Iron Deficiency Decreases Physical Performance

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2994490
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6303441
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6264804
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7091311
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6264804
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.0954-6820.1970.tb08052.x
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1099895

Iron is Lower in Fibromyalgia 6.5 times

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20087382

Iron Deficiency is Linked to Lung Diseases

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3946070/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19809026/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20087382

Iron Deficiency May Worsen Toxic Effects of Lead Poisoning

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15325155
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S002234768480949X
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_01/sr01_015.pdf

When I have discussed the benefits of keeping iron near deficiency, you clearly missed the word NEAR. Posting a bunch of studies about iron deficiency are irrelevant to that conversation, because near deficiency is NOT deficiency. By definition.

tankasnowgod · Feb 20, 2019

Cirion said:
In the studies that reportedly say 25-75 ng/ml for ferritin is ideal, what is the context? As douglas mentions, we can't look at iron in a vacuum, other things matter like anti-oxidant status, possibly iodine status, etc...

it's quite possible 25-75 ng/ml is ideal for average joes who eat junk food and thus have low anti-oxidants.

I didn't say "ideal range." I said "25-75ng/ml for ferritin seems to be the range that drastically reduce heart disease, cancer, and other degenerative diseases." The context was literally in the statement.

Cirion · Feb 20, 2019

I think the problem is we need to get away from extremes.

Are there cases where iron mitigation / donating blood is warranted? Yes.

Are there cases where iron heavy foods and even supplementation is warranted? Yes.

One size does not fit all.

However the impression that one tends to get around these forums is 100% of people should mitigate iron and donate blood, which can be unhelpful especially for those who actually should be supplementing it.

Luk3 · Feb 20, 2019

FWIW, there’s no link to low ferritin causing high prolactin in my case, as my ferritin was 230 and prolactin 25 the last time I tested!

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

Cirion said:
I think the problem is we need to get away from extremes.

Are there cases where iron mitigation / donating blood is warranted? Yes.

Are there cases where iron heavy foods and even supplementation is warranted? Yes.

One size does not fit all.

However the impression that one tends to get around these forums is 100% of people should mitigate iron and donate blood, which can be unhelpful especially for those who actually should be supplementing it.

This!
Of course theres different scenarios where investigation is needed and that is my point. But in the ray peat world people are scaring each other to even consider that iron deficiency exist and people have problems with it. That’s my point and arguement. And its very dangerous to talk about something in that way. People here recommend blood donations and drinking coffee with meat, takint aspirin so a lot of people donate blood here without even checking iron stores first. Then they come back and explain they feel terrible and no one even considers to suggest that they might be iron deficient now. And no eating liver every now and then wont rebuild your iron stores after blood donations thats why most donation clinics offer iron supplements.

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

Luk3 said:
FWIW, there’s no link to low ferritin causing high prolactin in my case, as my ferritin was 230 and prolactin 25 the last time I tested!

230 is way too high and I never said you should aim for anything remotely in that area. Obviously a case like yours blood donation and restrictig iron untill you lowered your iron is warranted. That doesnt mean someone with a ferritin of 50 shoud donate blood. But people here do that because people scare each other with nonsense. I myself managed to increase my iron to 190 and I donated blood, took some zinc, vitamin E, retinol and B12 and my ferritin went back down to 90 within a month and hemoglobin went from 136 to 155.

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

tankasnowgod said:
I didn't say "ideal range." I said "25-75ng/ml for ferritin seems to be the range that drastically reduce heart disease, cancer, and other degenerative diseases." The context was literally in the statement.

Yes just like antioxidants are heart healthy, anti cancer defend against degenerative disease I dont argue that iron is an oxidant and there’s a warrant to keep levels in check but there is something called iron deficiency that does have dramatic effects on the body and people notice this even at levels between 25-50. Besides those studies are american made on american people who eat no antioxidants or below average. That means their ferritin levels have to be below optimal for iron not to cause destruction in the body.

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

You have a compound like copper that shares the same profile as iron a lot. It acts as an oxidant used in a lot of processes in the body but high levels are bad, low levels are bad. Copper has gotten a bad reputation across the webb aswell its toxic its toxic copper toxicity!!! Well it’s not the copper its the antioxidant deficiency thats to weak to keep your levels at an optimal level. But still its very harmfull for people to skim through the internet reading all these absolute opinions about iron and copper as being the bad guys and having no benefits. You have to consider some people are toxic and some deficient and theres an optimal range. The optimal range for these oxidants can be a bit higher if you have an optimal defense system in place to ward of their bad effects. And probably antioxidant deficiency is a common thing today with all the processed junk food people are eating. This leads to diagnoses like iron overload or copper excess while they actually got sick from poor antioxidant status.

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

Its the whole absolute extreme follow the leader blindly that is so frustrating. Theres not one glove fits all and there is so many factors to account for before making a diagnosis or before saying this is the optimal range.

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

In the study they say that even years later of iron deficiency the kids seemed to have attention deficits and high prolactin. The substantia nigra is very iron rich and contains a lot of dopamine neurons affecting the conditions mentioned in the study. Iron deficiency at infancy when the brain is developing probably reduced the development of the substantia nigra thus leading to long term problems such as ADD etc and probably a higher prevalence for addiction later in life.

tankasnowgod · Feb 20, 2019

Douglas Ek said:
Its the whole absolute extreme follow the leader blindly that is so frustrating. Theres not one glove fits all and there is so many factors to account for before making a diagnosis or before saying this is the optimal range.

The thing that I find so frustrating with you is every time I have mentioned that I am interested in seeing studies that suggest a ferritin level in the range of 75-150 might be beneficial in some ways, you snap at me and yell that I am "stubborn and ignorant." I am literally interested in challenging my own view with information that I might have overlooked. You have constantly misrepresented what I have said.

Again, the range I have seen over and over again for the benefits of reduced heart disease, reduced cancer, improved insulin sensitivity, and other benefits is in that range of 25-75. I have also mentioned that Anthony Colpo, who was very active, found that the middle of that range was better for him personally, and that a level of 40-60 was best for him. This range is in line with Weinberg's book, Fachinni's studies, the Zacharsky studies, and the studies that show increased insulin sensitivity below a ferritin level of 80. I don't state this is an ideal range, but it's the range that comes up over and over again.

I get that you personally felt better with a ferritin level around 150 or so. Great. I felt excellent with a ferritin level lower in the range, that same near deficiency range from the studies I have mentioned above. So your personal experience certainly isn't enough to change my view. On the other hand, I have had ferritin test as low as 18, and at that level, mood and energy were great, and I had no anemia symptoms. Still, I don't recommend that anyone target ferritin that low, as I don't believe my personal experience is at that level is enough to trump the other evidence that is out there, either. I do know that my Hemoglobin was right in the mid range at that low ferritin level (above 14.0), which is why I likely felt good at that level.

For the record, the lab range of Ferritin for men varries a bit, but it is somwhere in the area of 20-400 ng/dl.

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

tankasnowgod said:
The thing that I find so frustrating with you is every time I have mentioned that I am interested in seeing studies that suggest a ferritin level in the range of 75-150 might be beneficial in some ways, you snap at me and yell that I am "stubborn and ignorant." I am literally interested in challenging my own view with information that I might have overlooked. You have constantly misrepresented what I have said.

Again, the range I have seen over and over again for the benefits of reduced heart disease, reduced cancer, improved insulin sensitivity, and other benefits is in that range of 25-75. I have also mentioned that Anthony Colpo, who was very active, found that the middle of that range was better for him personally, and that a level of 40-60 was best for him. This range is in line with Weinberg's book, Fachinni's studies, the Zacharsky studies, and the studies that show increased insulin sensitivity below a ferritin level of 80. I don't state this is an ideal range, but it's the range that comes up over and over again.

I get that you personally felt better with a ferritin level around 150 or so. Great. I felt excellent with a ferritin level lower in the range, that same near deficiency range from the studies I have mentioned above. So your personal experience certainly isn't enough to change my view. On the other hand, I have had ferritin test as low as 18, and at that level, mood and energy were great, and I had no anemia symptoms. Still, I don't recommend that anyone target ferritin that low, as I don't believe my personal experience is at that level is enough to trump the other evidence that is out there, either. I do know that my Hemoglobin was right in the mid range at that low ferritin level (above 14.0), which is why I likely felt good at that level.

For the record, the lab range of Ferritin for men varries a bit, but it is somwhere in the area of 20-400 ng/dl.

I said once 75-150 in a thread months ago and in this post I changed that to 50-100. Why are we arguing over 25 points difference on a scale from 20-400? You just wanna argue with me to argue. My apology if I have offended you. For sure the studies you mention does say between those numbers. My point with it all is not to argue against that iron is dangerous and should be kept within certain boundries. The reason for this thread is to make posts around here that show people that iron is not always bad like @Cirion mentioned.

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

Just an addition to the first study of the original post I like to add another study. Its an individual case but the study argues about the functions of iron in dopamine production and I like to highlight that so people can be aware that iron seems to be good if you want to raise dopamine. You can google iron and dopamine and read hundreds of studies about it and how the substantia nigra is the brain center for dopamine and how its iron rich and the correlation of low iron and symptoms of dopamine deficiency etc

https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/cnpt/7/0/7_9/_pdf

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

Here’s from a forum asking blood results says high TSH high prolactin and low iron.
Just the usual pattern that can be found all over the webb at forums.

Help w/ Labs. High TSH, Low Iron, High Prolactin

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

Prolactinoma presenting as chronic anaemia with osteoporosis: a case report

Douglas Ek · Feb 20, 2019

Early Iron Deficiency Has Brain and Behavior Effects Consistent with Dopaminergic Dysfunction

adults who had iron deficiency anemia in infancy show poorer inhibitory control and executive functioning as assessed by neurocognitive tasks where pharmacologic and neuroimaging studies implicate frontal-striatal circuits and the mesocortical dopamine pathway. Alterations in the mesolimbic pathway, where dopamine plays a major role in behavioral activation and inhibition, positive affect, and inherent reward, may help explain altered social-emotional behavior in iron-deficient infants, specifically wariness and hesitance, lack of positive affect, diminished social engagement, etc. Poorer motor sequencing and bimanual coordination and lower spontaneous eye blink rate in iron-deficient anemic infants are consistent with impaired function in the nigrostriatal pathway. Short- and long-term changes in serum prolactin point to dopamine dysfunction in the tuberohypophyseal pathway.

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Iron Deficiency Alters Serum Prolactin (high Prolactin)

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