How Much A Is Too Much?

[naftaep]

I'm not sure how to start a new thread, so I hope it's OK to ask a question about vitamin A here:

How much A is too much? For over six months now, I've been taking over 250,000 IU of Pure Bulk's Vitamin A Palmitate. When I reduce my dose I get acne or get on the verge of getting a cold, and I still have dandruff (which I suppose means I'm still vitamin-A deficient?). Since despite my best efforts I'm gaining fat weight and have cold hands and feet, I doubt that the reason I need so much A is because I have a great metabolism. So what explains why, in the absence of a super-metabolism, one would need so much A?

Hypothesis 1: I'm taking the wrong kind of A. Weak counter-evidence: I've tried Nutrisorb A, as well as Haidut's Retinil, but at the rate at which I go through A, it's not cost-effective to use them.

Hypothesis 2: I'm "wasting" a lot of the A I take in, so I need extra to compensate. If so, what might cause that wasting?

Hypothesis 3: There is some micronutrient or other deficiency, such that extra A compensates for that deficiency (a la extra sodium compensating for other minerals). If so, what might that be?

What alternative hypotheses should I consider? And is it "safe" to continue taking this much A, since it might (or might not) lower thyroid function? I get headaches occasionally, but I'm not sure it's from the A. I'd be grateful for any pointers.

 

[Brian]

If you are cold still it would be safe to assume it's not helping at best to be taking that much or like you said you are missing something major. Are you taking thyroid or know what your thyroid labs are? What is your main source of calories? Salt/magnesium intake?

 

[zooma]

If you search for Edward's posts on here he basically said that taking zinc can greatly reduce need for vitamin A. He used an example of a person's acne clearing up after reducing vitamin A intake and increasing zinc.

I know that the toxicity of A is high, but 250,000IU for 6 months must be approaching it. Are you taking vitamin E with it? That would probably be wise to protect against toxicity.

Personally if I was taking that much I would use haidut's product, at that intake you probably need to consider any potential contaminants.

 

[naftaep]

I agree, which is why I'm concerned about the perhaps excessive A.

I'm now on 1 grain of thyroid (& lots of progest-e), high end of T3, lowish end of T4, very low TSH. Even when I added Cytomel, still had cold feet even while the rest of me was warm. Food sources: fruit, carrot, rice, cheese, cottage cheese, gelatin, lamb, seafood, some CO, butter, some other supplements, such as Bs, E, K, MB, zinc, calcium, magnesium. But even when I vary my diet/supplements/thyroid intake, my A needs remain high.

 

[naftaep]

Sorry zooma, I didn't see your post. I've been taking about 20-40 mg of zinc; perhaps I'll take more. I do take E.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I'd suggest taking K2 and D3, plenty of it, and E, with the A. Are you taking enough of all those?

 

[YuraCZ]

post 117862[highlight=yellow]I'd suggest taking K2 and D3, plenty of it[/highlight], and E, with the A. Are you taking enough of all those?

Yeah calcified soft tissue is an amazing feeling... If you don't have vit D blood test, then taking plenty of.. it is really not smart move.. I would say under 5000iu a day it's safe...

 

[naftaep]

I take LEF's D, E, & K products; just ordered Thorne's K2 & Haidut's fat soluble mix. I try to limit the D to less than 10,000 IU because it induces constipation, but I assume that's enough? But increasing the D, E & K does not seem to lower the A requirement.

Is dandruff really a sign of low vitamin A? Or getting sick when I reduce my dose of A?

And is it "bad" to increase my zinc to over 50 mg?

 

[milk_lover]

I can't really balance fat-soluble vitamins from supplements so I take food and sun routes to get them. I've read that taurine can help digest fat-soluble vitamins. From personal experience, taurine seems to makes my gut uncomfortable if I don't consume it with a meal (i.e., lamb and bread). Maybe you try to supplement vitamin A (vitamin E could help as mentioned above) along with taurine while you're having a big meal? I haven't tried that but it could theoretically work.

 

[jaa]

post 117864

post 117862[highlight=yellow]I'd suggest taking K2 and D3, plenty of it[/highlight], and E, with the A. Are you taking enough of all those?

Yeah calcified soft tissue is an amazing feeling... If you don't have vit D blood test, then taking plenty of.. it is really not smart move.. I would say under 5000iu a day it's safe...

Doesn't the K2 prevent calcification?

 

[YuraCZ]

post 117881

post 117864

post 117862[highlight=yellow]I'd suggest taking K2 and D3, plenty of it[/highlight], and E, with the A. Are you taking enough of all those?

Yeah calcified soft tissue is an amazing feeling... If you don't have vit D blood test, then taking plenty of.. it is really not smart move.. I would say under 5000iu a day it's safe...

Doesn't the K2 prevent calcification?

In ideal world yeah.. But if there is too much vit D in the blood? Like K2 is not miracle.. Or you think that taking K2 = zero chance for calcification for whatever reason?

 

[naftaep]

Taurine, huh, interesting suggestion--will try. Thanks milk_lover--how many mg/g of taurine do you suggest?

 

[jaa]

More or less.

 

[answersfound]

I'd stay under 100,000 IU Vitamin A, and add some Vitamin E.

 

[zooma]

post 117866 And is it "bad" to increase my zinc to over 50 mg?

I'm not sure that anyone really knows for sure. Ray and many other knowledgeable people seem to strongly favour eating oysters to taking zinc supplements, so I'd consider that.

You could maybe consider taking the A in a different form. Either use haidut's product topically, or try liver.

Are you eating enough protein?

 

[naftaep]

I think so--100-120 grams/day. Why would protein reduce the need for A?

My plan:

Part 1. Increase zinc and other non-A fat soluble vits. while slowly reducing the A. Yesterday I had oysters and increased my supplemental zinc from 30 to 50 mg, for a total of ~220 mg. Nevertheless, by the end of the day I felt the familiar symptoms (being on the verge of getting a cold, acne) return. Will keep A at 225,000 for the next few days to see if these symptoms are really due to inadequate A or whether they are merely "withdrawal" symptoms.

Part 2. I've just discovered through a Genova stool test that I have a strain of pathogenic bacteria in my gut. This confirms my suspicion that my digestion is off and suggests that I may not be properly absorbing my food and supplements. This, in turn, suggests that I try taking my supplements sublingually instead of orally. So this is what I will try with the A; the zinc I take is already sublingual. (As for the pathogen, Genova recommends I take berberine.)

I will report in a week or so, in case anyone is in a similar situation.

 

[tobieagle]

I think you are in a hypothyroid state because of all that vitamin A.
You have pushed your TSH down with the additional thyroid hormones but the vitamin A prevents it from actually doing its job.
You are probably only masking a different cause of the acne.
Unless one is a male teenager with a raging libido who works in direct sunlight everyday und burns like 15k calories, nobody needs this amount of vitamin A for such a long period of time.

I would stop the vitamin A completely and look for other issues.

 

[tobieagle]

post 117855 Since despite my best efforts I'm gaining fat weight and have cold hands and feet, I doubt that the reason I need so much A is because I have a great metabolism.

You have actually found it out yourself.

 

[naftaep]

It's been a little over a week since I began reducing A. Perhaps I overdid it, going down too quickly.

The first day I cut A from 250,000 IU to 225,000 IU; the second day, I cut it to 110,000; the third to 55,000; the fourth to 25,000. At the same time, the taurine I ordered hadn't arrived, but I I increased zinc to over 50 mg, increased D to 10,000/12,500 IU, E to 400 IU, K to 15 mg--taking these, along with the A, sublingually, in divided doses with meals.

Results: A few pimples in odd scattered places (shoulder, thigh), a verge of facial zit breakout--which never quite progressed. Instead my cheeks became covered with tiny bumps. And I became on the verge of getting sick with a cold. Indeed, after the fourth day, with only 25,000 IU, I actually got a full-blown cold.

So on the fifth day, I increased the A to 55,000 IU--no change in symptoms; on the sixth to 60,000, on the seventh and eighth to 80,000; with each increase the cold symptoms become less and less severe. At the same time, those weird facial bumps have decreased.

A symptom I had not expected--which I can attribute only to the reduction in A: the quality of my sleep, which has never been great, really deteriorated on a lower dose of A.

I'm not sure what to make of all this. It seems that I did not need all 250,000 IU of A; my optimal current dose seems to be 80,000--but that still seems high for someone with hypothyroid symptoms, and I'm still concerned that this amount may be lowering my thyroid function.

I did not really test each hypothesis in isolation. While I increased zinc and other fat-soluble vitamins in order to determine whether the A was compensating for a deficiency in other vitamins (hypothesis 3), for the first five days I also took these supplements sublingually, to test the hypothesis that I was "wasting" the A and so needed extra to compensate for inadequate digestion (hypothesis 2). The fact that my current optimal dose is now a mere third of what it used to be, suggests that one or both of these hypotheses is correct.

I should note that on the sixth day, I began to reconsider the wisdom of taking these supplements sublingually. I assume there's some benefit to digesting them and transporting them to the liver? In any case, for the past few days I began taking all of these supplements (except zinc) orally, instead. So this seems to support hypothesis 3. On the other hand, perhaps were I to have continued taking all of these supplements sublingually, my optimal dose would be 65,000 IU, not 80,000.

Well, I hope this long account helps someone (other than me!). And, of course, if anyone has other hypotheses about what may be going on, do tell.

 

[Sheila]

Dear Naftaep, your experiences on Vitamin A are interesting, thank you for taking the time to relate them.
This article may help to explain why lower A upset your sleep
http://www.westonaprice.org/our-blo...setting-circadian-rhythm-allowing-good-sleep/
and Vit A is also (see Haidut post) an anti-cortisolian. As you would know Cortisol rises at night.
I think vitamin A withdrawal occurs in some people, and that Vit A may well take over the place of some other deficiency. I have seen Vit A withdrawal cause leukoplakia to return even after 100,000iu for a few months. One would have thought there was sufficient stored, but withdrawal suggested not and reintroduction sorted it out. I think that eye adaptation to bright/dark/night lights is also a good indicator of the need for Vit A. I suspect the body has a lot of redundancy built in, although some contingencies will require more energy to be used than the most appropriate (but unavailable) chemical. Think of it as either taking the direct route between A & B or going A then C then B.
I know of a 40yo man who had tremendous success in clearing acne from his back using Solban for 6 months and it was only after this success that his poor reaction to bright lights and poor night vision suggested Vit A might have been the issue all along. However, the topical anti-inflam approach seemed to work regardless of that indication.
It really is person specific and trial and error but, contrary to what I was taught, high dose Vit A seems awfully useful in certain cases.
All the best
Sheila