High dose vitamin D alter brain waves

[Hans]

A few people report that they feel significantly worse with vitamin D supplementation. It might be either because the dose is too high for them or that they convert it very rapidly to the active form, which can have detriments in large amounts.

This study found that excess vit D lowered all brain waves. They did say it was very high doses, equivalent to 3.5k/kg HED, but it caused these effects after just 4 days. They speculate that it's through an increase in serum calcium concentration.

100 YEARS OF VITAMIN D: Supraphysiological doses of vitamin D changes brainwave activity patterns in rats - PubMed

Low plasma levels of vitamin D causes bone mineral change that can precipitate osteopenia and osteoporosis and could aggravate autoimmune diseases, hypertension and diabetes. The demand for vitamin D supplementation becomes necessary; however, the consumption of vitamin D is not without risks...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Thus, the present study describes the electroencephalographic changes caused by supraphysiological doses of vitamin D in the brain electrical dynamics, and the electrocardiographic changes. After 4 days of treatment with vitamin D at dose of 25,000 IU/Kg, the serum calcium levels found was increased in comparison with control group. The ECoG analysis found a reduction in wave activity in the delta, theta, alpha and beta frequency bands. For ECG was observed changes with shortened QT follow-up, which could be related to serum calcium concentration. This study presented important evidence about the cerebral and cardiac alterations caused by high doses of vitamin D, indicating valuable parameters in the screening and decision-making process for diagnosing patients with symptoms suggestive of intoxication."

 

[Beastmode]

A few people report that they feel significantly worse with vitamin D supplementation. It might be either because the dose is too high for them or that they convert it very rapidly to the active form, which can have detriments in large amounts.

This study found that excess vit D lowered all brain waves. They did say it was very high doses, equivalent to 3.5k/kg HED, but it caused these effects after just 4 days. They speculate that it's through an increase in serum calcium concentration.

100 YEARS OF VITAMIN D: Supraphysiological doses of vitamin D changes brainwave activity patterns in rats - PubMed

Low plasma levels of vitamin D causes bone mineral change that can precipitate osteopenia and osteoporosis and could aggravate autoimmune diseases, hypertension and diabetes. The demand for vitamin D supplementation becomes necessary; however, the consumption of vitamin D is not without risks...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Thus, the present study describes the electroencephalographic changes caused by supraphysiological doses of vitamin D in the brain electrical dynamics, and the electrocardiographic changes. After 4 days of treatment with vitamin D at dose of 25,000 IU/Kg, the serum calcium levels found was increased in comparison with control group. The ECoG analysis found a reduction in wave activity in the delta, theta, alpha and beta frequency bands. For ECG was observed changes with shortened QT follow-up, which could be related to serum calcium concentration. This study presented important evidence about the cerebral and cardiac alterations caused by high doses of vitamin D, indicating valuable parameters in the screening and decision-making process for diagnosing patients with symptoms suggestive of intoxication."

Regarding the part on brain waves, I'd be interested in what shows up on a QEEG before and after dosing for a period of time and where exactly specific brain waves are showing a "reduction." Also, eyes open vs eyes closed when testing are important factors.

Brain waves are such a misunderstood area that even scientists don't really know what they're talking about at times.

 

[Peatness]

After 4 days of treatment with vitamin D at dose of 25,000 IU/Kg, the serum calcium levels found was increased in comparison with control group.

No wonder - such a dose seems insane

 

[youngsinatra]

After 4 days of treatment with vitamin D at dose of 25,000 IU/Kg, the serum calcium levels found was increased in comparison with control group.

No wonder - such a dose seems insane

Keep in mind that rats are very light. Probably 20-40g.

Plus rats are very sensitive to vitamin D.
„D-con“ is a rat poison that effectively kill rats. It’s basically just vitamin D3 in this product.

 

[Perry Staltic]

After 4 days of treatment with vitamin D at dose of 25,000 IU/Kg, the serum calcium levels found was increased in comparison with control group.

No wonder - such a dose seems insane

Insanely high. That would be 10 million IU for a 100 kg person. The highest I've read about is 300,000-600,000 IU per injection that is meant to last for 3 months or more.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Keep in mind that rats are very light. Probably 20-40g.

Plus rats are very sensitive to vitamin D.
„D-con“ is a rat poison that effectively kill rats. It’s basically just vitamin D3 in this product.

Each D Con block contains 11mg of Vitamin D, which is 4.4 Million IU. It's an absolutely massive dose, even for a full grown human. It's a toxic dose to most small animals, 35 pounds and under.

So it's not that rats are any more "sensitive" to insanely high doses than other animals much bigger than them. The dose a rat would get from D Con would still be 10, 100 or 1000 times higher than the dose they were given in the study mentioned in the OP (depending, of course, on the size of the rat and how much of the D Con bait they ate). And the dose used in the study was incredibly high, much higher than even the doses Jeff Bowles experimented with (after getting the HED).

 

[youngsinatra]

Each D Con block contains 11mg of Vitamin D, which is 4.4 Million IU. It's an absolutely massive dose, even for a full grown human. It's a toxic dose to most small animals, 35 pounds and under.

So it's not that rats are any more "sensitive" to insanely high doses than other animals much bigger than them. The dose a rat would get from D Con would still be 10, 100 or 1000 times higher than the dose they were given in the study mentioned in the OP (depending, of course, on the size of the rat and how much of the D Con bait they ate). And the dose used in the study was incredibly high, much higher than even the doses Jeff Bowles experimented with (after getting the HED).

I intuitively thought that a single block could whipe out a dozen mouses and that mouses probably just lick on the block a few times, but I can be absolutely wrong on this.

Thanks for pointing things out, man!

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

Keep in mind that rats are very light. Probably 20-40g.

Plus rats are very sensitive to vitamin D.
„D-con“ is a rat poison that effectively kill rats. It’s basically just vitamin D3 in this product.

This was a surprise to hear!

“Cholecalciferol, or activated vitamin D3, causes a life-threateningly high calcium and phosphorus level in the body, resulting in severe, acute kidney failure. This can progress to chronic kidney failure and have long-term repercussions. Common signs of poisoning may not be evident for 1-2 days, when the poison has already resulted in significant -and potentially permanent – damage to the body. Increased thirst and urination, weakness, lethargy, a decreased appetite, and halitosis (“uremic” breath) may be seen. Acute kidney failure develops 2-3 days after ingestion of this type of mouse and rat poison.

Unfortunately, cholecalciferol mouse and rat poison does not have an antidote, and is one of the most challenging poisoning cases to treat as hospitalization, frequent laboratory monitoring and expensive therapy is often required for a positive outcome. Treatment includes aggressive IV fluids (for 2-3 days) and specific drugs (e.g., diuretics, steroids, calcitonin and bisphosphonates) to decrease calcium levels in the body. Frequent monitoring of blood work (calcium, phosphorus, and kidney values) is often needed for a period of 2-6 weeks after ingestion.

Unfortunately, cholecalciferol has a very narrow margin of safety, which means that even small ingestions of this poison can result in severe clinical signs or death. Toxic ingestions must be treated quickly and appropriately to prevent kidney failure.”

RODENTICIDE REVOLUTION: D-CON SAYS, “GOOD-BYE ANTICOAGULANTS, HELLO VITAMIN D.”

RODENTICIDE REVOLUTION: D-CON SAYS, “GOOD-BYE ANTICOAGULANTS, HELLO VITAMIN D.”

vet.purdue.edu

 

[Kavie]

A few people report that they feel significantly worse with vitamin D supplementation. It might be either because the dose is too high for them or that they convert it very rapidly to the active form, which can have detriments in large amounts.

This study found that excess vit D lowered all brain waves. They did say it was very high doses, equivalent to 3.5k/kg HED, but it caused these effects after just 4 days. They speculate that it's through an increase in serum calcium concentration.

100 YEARS OF VITAMIN D: Supraphysiological doses of vitamin D changes brainwave activity patterns in rats - PubMed

Low plasma levels of vitamin D causes bone mineral change that can precipitate osteopenia and osteoporosis and could aggravate autoimmune diseases, hypertension and diabetes. The demand for vitamin D supplementation becomes necessary; however, the consumption of vitamin D is not without risks...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"Thus, the present study describes the electroencephalographic changes caused by supraphysiological doses of vitamin D in the brain electrical dynamics, and the electrocardiographic changes. After 4 days of treatment with vitamin D at dose of 25,000 IU/Kg, the serum calcium levels found was increased in comparison with control group. The ECoG analysis found a reduction in wave activity in the delta, theta, alpha and beta frequency bands. For ECG was observed changes with shortened QT follow-up, which could be related to serum calcium concentration. This study presented important evidence about the cerebral and cardiac alterations caused by high doses of vitamin D, indicating valuable parameters in the screening and decision-making process for diagnosing patients with symptoms suggestive of intoxication."

Pretty sure no one is dosing that high. I am curious though if anyone has had significant benefits at normal doses?

 

[Riesensackteil]

This was a surprise to hear!

“Cholecalciferol, or activated vitamin D3, causes a life-threateningly high calcium and phosphorus level in the body, resulting in severe, acute kidney failure. This can progress to chronic kidney failure and have long-term repercussions. Common signs of poisoning may not be evident for 1-2 days, when the poison has already resulted in significant -and potentially permanent – damage to the body. Increased thirst and urination, weakness, lethargy, a decreased appetite, and halitosis (“uremic” breath) may be seen. Acute kidney failure develops 2-3 days after ingestion of this type of mouse and rat poison.

Unfortunately, cholecalciferol mouse and rat poison does not have an antidote, and is one of the most challenging poisoning cases to treat as hospitalization, frequent laboratory monitoring and expensive therapy is often required for a positive outcome. Treatment includes aggressive IV fluids (for 2-3 days) and specific drugs (e.g., diuretics, steroids, calcitonin and bisphosphonates) to decrease calcium levels in the body. Frequent monitoring of blood work (calcium, phosphorus, and kidney values) is often needed for a period of 2-6 weeks after ingestion.

Unfortunately, cholecalciferol has a very narrow margin of safety, which means that even small ingestions of this poison can result in severe clinical signs or death. Toxic ingestions must be treated quickly and appropriately to prevent kidney failure.”

RODENTICIDE REVOLUTION: D-CON SAYS, “GOOD-BYE ANTICOAGULANTS, HELLO VITAMIN D.”

RODENTICIDE REVOLUTION: D-CON SAYS, “GOOD-BYE ANTICOAGULANTS, HELLO VITAMIN D.”

vet.purdue.edu

Do those medics ever consider high dose minerals of which the vitamin D is moving around the most? Calcium carbonate maybe.

Their handling of vitamin d poisoned people seems like a possibly good contributor for iatrogenic death count

 

[BibleBeliever]

Ray Peat recommends around 10 000 ius a day. He says any issues are caused by low calcium or magnesium.
Even with sufficient calcium/magnesium I have never been able to make vitamin d a constant.
With high milk consumption, and many kale broths, no noticed effect in correlation.

WestonPrice speaks much about a vitamin A to D ratio. There is discourse on the increased need for vitamin k, which liver would cover.

Anyone ever find greater tolerance of vitamin d when increasing liver consumption (vitamin A)?

I have had greatly varied results from vitamin D. Sometimes causing great digestion, weight loss. Sometimes increasing sprint speed/cardiovascular output dramatically/strength output. Sometimes greatly enhancing clarity of thought/tranquility.
Other times inducing great stress, sorrow, panic attacks.

No constant developed.
Vitamin D from the sun is always a constant benefit, although it doesn't increase the power/sprint anywhere near as much.

 

[Peatness]

@BibleBeliever have a look at this article. It has been posted before

Sunlight and Vitamin D: They're Not the Same Thing

Written by Stephanie Seneff, PhD

www.westonaprice.org

 

[BibleBeliever]

@BibleBeliever have a look at this article. It has been posted before

Sunlight and Vitamin D: They're Not the Same Thing

Written by Stephanie Seneff, PhD

www.westonaprice.org

Thanks for the link, just read through.

I agree that sunlight is far superior and is probably utilized differently. However what is to be done with why would Ray recommend 10 000 iu of vitamin D a day? It is good to address this since we are on a Ray Peat forum.

The basic premise is when sunlight is available use that and go outside to harvest the power of sunlight. Although to digress Ray even state's when sunlight is available he would still take vitamin d, and even found taking it made him utilize sunlight better.

The references of the article of nitric oxide, I am not certain. Ray advises all to decrease nitric oxide, although the normative amount apparently produced by sunlight is probably through healthful mechanisms if the article is accurate. Otherwise cancer requires nitric oxide to feed upon and excess is quite harmful to blood vessels and is related to heart attacks through nitric oxide drugs. Niacinamide for instance completly inhibits all nitric oxide. Many compounds in oranges do the same. Excess nitric oxide is very toxic to the brain as well.

Otherwise the reference of the study in comparing vitamin d supplementation (only 1000 iu, is very very minute), vs sunlight (probably would get 10 000; in strong light as long as eyes have exposure one may absorb that much in 15 minutes)
They reference the fat soluble transporting mechanisms are probably why supplementation was not successful, but that is doubtful, as it requires very minimal fat to utilize; i think maybe 5-10 grams, which anyone would easily consume in a day.

I think the main issue to address is if this article is true, why does Ray recommend supplementing vitamin d, even when sunlight is available?
He parallels it to thyroid and probably metabolism and subsequent carbon dioxide production.
In winter extra thyroid and incandescent light is recommended to help with the lack of sunlight.
Thus suppose the premises of the article is true, what do we do in winter when freshly squeezed sunlight is not readily available?

 

[Peatness]

Thanks for the link, just read through.

I agree that sunlight is far superior and is probably utilized differently. However what is to be done with why would Ray recommend 10 000 iu of vitamin D a day? It is good to address this since we are on a Ray Peat forum.

The basic premise is when sunlight is available use that and go outside to harvest the power of sunlight. Although to digress Ray even state's when sunlight is available he would still take vitamin d, and even found taking it made him utilize sunlight better.

The references of the article of nitric oxide, I am not certain. Ray advises all to decrease nitric oxide, although the normative amount apparently produced by sunlight is probably through healthful mechanisms if the article is accurate. Otherwise cancer requires nitric oxide to feed upon and excess is quite harmful to blood vessels and is related to heart attacks through nitric oxide drugs. Niacinamide for instance completly inhibits all nitric oxide. Many compounds in oranges do the same. Excess nitric oxide is very toxic to the brain as well.

Otherwise the reference of the study in comparing vitamin d supplementation (only 1000 iu, is very very minute), vs sunlight (probably would get 10 000; in strong light as long as eyes have exposure one may absorb that much in 15 minutes)
They reference the fat soluble transporting mechanisms are probably why supplementation was not successful, but that is doubtful, as it requires very minimal fat to utilize; i think maybe 5-10 grams, which anyone would easily consume in a day.

I think the main issue to address is if this article is true, why does Ray recommend supplementing vitamin d, even when sunlight is available?
He parallels it to thyroid and probably metabolism and subsequent carbon dioxide production.
In winter extra thyroid and incandescent light is recommended to help with the lack of sunlight.
Thus suppose the premises of the article is true, what do we do in winter when freshly squeezed sunlight is not readily available?

Perhaps increasing sulfate in your diet, in the absence of sunlight, might help tolerate vitamin D.

From the article

THE ROLE OF SULFATE

Those who are familiar with my research know that I believe that keratinocyte cells in the skin, endothelial cells lining the walls of surface veins and red blood cells are able to exploit the energy in sunlight by oxidizing hydrogen sulfide to make sulfate.3 In the skin, the sulfate is conjugated with both vitamin D and cholesterol, and this makes these otherwise water-insoluble sulfate molecules water-soluble. This greatly facilitates their transport in the blood, because they no longer have to be enclosed inside lipid particles like high-density lipoprotein (HDL) and low-density lipoprotein (LDL). Sunlight exposure thus produces cholesterol sulfate as well as vitamin D sulfate, and it is the cholesterol sulfate that offers many of the benefits that are seen epidemiologically in sunny places. In fact, I believe that systemic sulfate deficiency is a key driver behind many chronic diseases that are on the rise in industrialized nations.

The sulfate that is produced in response to sunlight also supplies sulfate to the glycocalyx, the mesh of extracellular matrix glycoproteins that line the walls of all blood vessels. Red blood cells hand off cholesterol sulfate to the endothelial cells as they traverse the capillaries, and both the cholesterol and the sulfate are of vital importance to the endothelial cell’s health. The endothelial cells also can incorporate the sulfate they synthesize themselves directly into the glycocalyx.

Sulfate in the glycocalyx helps to maintain the structured water in the exclusion zone, a layer of gelled water that coats the surface of all the blood vessels. Not only does the gel protect the blood vessel wall from oxidative and glycation damage, but it also provides a slick surface for frictionless traversal of the capillary by the red blood cells. And perhaps most importantly, it carries a negative charge, creating a battery that is likely the main source of electricity for the body. Light—and most especially infrared light—causes the exclusion zone water layer to expand dramatically, by as much as a factor of four.4 The electricity held in the battery grows in direct correspondence. Professor Gerald Pollack from the University of Washington in Seattle has popularized much of this story in his book, Cells, Gels and the Engines of Life.5

 

[Austin Resch]

Keep in mind that rats are very light. Probably 20-40g.

Plus rats are very sensitive to vitamin D.
„D-con“ is a rat poison that effectively kill rats. It’s basically just vitamin D3 in this product.

I am curious to hear your input as to how vit D3 being a rat poison suggests it may be negative for humans to supplement.

 

[youngsinatra]

I am curious to hear your input as to how vit D3 being a rat poison suggests it may be negative for humans to supplement.

I did not suggest that vitamin D is bad for humans. I just shared my thoughts that a rat study may not have such relevance for us humans as I thought that rats are much more sensitive to vitamin D, because I knew that D-Con is a well-known rat poison. But my assumption turned out to be false.

 

[Austin Resch]

I did not suggest that vitamin D is bad for humans. I just shared my thoughts that a rat study may not have such relevance for us humans as I thought that rats are much more sensitive to vitamin D, because I knew that D-Con is a well-known rat poison. But my assumption turned out to be false.

I understand, I was just curious to get your insights since I have been seeing more folks take a stance against supplementing vitD3 with the main rationale being that it is used as a rat poison. Wanting to learn how valid this is

 

[ww3not4me]

There are books written on high dose Vitamin D3 check Amazon. On top of that when it was discovered the daily normal dose was in the 50Kiu to 100Kiu a day range. You have to research hard because all of this research is pre 1950's but it is out there and online. In fact they gave pregnant women 100,000iu or more for the entire duration of their pregnancy's. Vitamin D3 just like Sodium Chloride and Iodine are not any where near as toxic as modern medicine would have you believe!

Many Doctors around the world use high dose Vitamin D to treat many diseases. One group has you avoid calcium rich foods the other group has you add K2 to your diet to keep the calcium were it needs to be and out of your blood.

I have taken up to 100,000iu of D3 for an entire year with zero issues. I cut the things I thought would be of most interest in this case from my last labs.

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

25-Hydroxy Vitamin D Total

> 200 ng/mL

30-100 ng/mL

H

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Calcium Level

9.4 mg/dL

8.5-10.7 mg/dL

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Carbon Dioxide Level

24 mEq/L

23-34 mEq/L

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH)

3.69 uIU/mL

0.47-4.50

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

25-Hydroxy Vitamin D Total

> 200 ng/mL

30-100 ng/mL

H

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Sodium Level

137 mEq/L

137-155 mEq/L

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Potassium Level

4.1 mEq/L

3.7-5.5 mEq/L

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Chloride Level

103 mEq/L

98-107 mEq/L

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Albumin

4.4 g/dL

3.5-5.0 g/dL

 

[Mossy]

There are books written on high dose Vitamin D3 check Amazon. On top of that when it was discovered the daily normal dose was in the 50Kiu to 100Kiu a day range. You have to research hard because all of this research is pre 1950's but it is out there and online. In fact they gave pregnant women 100,000iu or more for the entire duration of their pregnancy's. Vitamin D3 just like Sodium Chloride and Iodine are not any where near as toxic as modern medicine would have you believe!

Many Doctors around the world use high dose Vitamin D to treat many diseases. One group has you avoid calcium rich foods the other group has you add K2 to your diet to keep the calcium were it needs to be and out of your blood.

I have taken up to 100,000iu of D3 for an entire year with zero issues. I cut the things I thought would be of most interest in this case from my last labs.

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

25-Hydroxy Vitamin D Total

> 200 ng/mL

30-100 ng/mL

H

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Calcium Level

9.4 mg/dL

8.5-10.7 mg/dL

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Carbon Dioxide Level

24 mEq/L

23-34 mEq/L

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Thyroid Stimulating Hormone (TSH)

3.69 uIU/mL

0.47-4.50

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

25-Hydroxy Vitamin D Total

> 200 ng/mL

30-100 ng/mL

H

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Sodium Level

137 mEq/L

137-155 mEq/L

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Potassium Level

4.1 mEq/L

3.7-5.5 mEq/L

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Chloride Level

103 mEq/L

98-107 mEq/L

Jan 04, 2022 3:16 pm

Albumin

4.4 g/dL

3.5-5.0 g/dL

If I'm reading this correctly, you're more than double the top of range for 25-Hydroxy Vitamin D?

How do you feel with numbers that high? Also, what is your average dose of Vitamin D3; as well, what do you take with it? Thanks for sharing.

 

[Homo Consumericus]

Each D Con block contains 11mg of Vitamin D, which is 4.4 Million IU.