Fructose And Endotoxin [edwardjedmonds]

[Amazoniac]

It's simple: Kartoffel doesn't want to be eaten.

 

[Kartoffel]

It was 25% fructose, 25% complex carbohydrates (starch).

What's your point?

 

[Kartoffel]

It's simple: Kartoffel doesn't want to be eaten.

I require sufficient cooking first.

 

[Peater Piper]

What's your point?

It was accompanied by glucose, even if not bound to the glucose. Your contention is that fructose that begins as a disaccharide impacts the liver differently than unbound fructose? They all have to be monosaccharides before absorption.

 

[Kartoffel]

It was accompanied by glucose, even if not bound to the glucose. Your contention is that fructose that begins as a disaccharide impacts the liver differently than unbound fructose? They all have to be monosaccharides before absorption.

I doubt that starch, especially coming from sources very high in fiber, would catalyze fructose absorption the same way as glucose as a monosaccharide does. So, I don't know whether it affects the liver differently, but I think it's very likely. Apart from that, refined fructose has been shown to cause malabsorption and endotoxin transloacation, whereas no such thing can be seen when equal amounts of fructose are consumed in the form of sucrose. Endotoxin is probably the main cause of NAFLD. Also, the complex carb group in the study got 65% more fiber, which is know to decrease endotoxin absorption and liver fat accumulation.
What do you think about the methods of this study? Don't you think that it's a little odd that no absolute values for liver fat are shown, and the only reference is the median percentage?

 

[tca300]

[1] Taxing the liver with PUFA and excess fructose or alcohol at the same time is risky, but plenty of glucose is safer in that regard irrespective of the type of fat consumed.

Dietary sucrose is essential to the development of liver injury in the methionine-choline-deficient model of steatohepatitis

There are so many studies on this that you can select the animal, its gender, age, size, marital status, criminal record, etc. That's why I mentioned that the person has to be really generous to dismiss them.

[2] No doubt fatty liver is a protective measure but can't be painted in good light because it sounds like it's something desirable.
Ectopic fat, insulin resistance and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease | Proceedings of the Nutrition Society | Cambridge Core

[3] Ich don't think so as long as supported by adequate nutrition. If it's fattening up organs, (of course) it's a sign to back off or change the ways.

Now to be equitable, because I totally am:
Effect of Eucaloric High- and Low-Sucrose Diets With Identical Macronutrient Profile on Insulin Resistance and Vascular Risk
There are people here consuming up to 30% of their calories from fructose without adapting their diet to such high intakes.

[4] What is that supposed to mean? That southern people are indecent? If so, it's a quite hemispherialist. I'll just ignore it and pretend that you weren't offensive. But seriously, regarding ancestry and evolution, it's probably a vit D issue, Rayzord has talked about it.

"I Have Liver Issues And I Am Not Making Progress"

Exciting! Thank you for your responses, I have much reading to do! And not being hemispherialist haha, I'm from a very northern area and was wondering if my ability to process fructose might be compromised by my ancestors not getting much..

Thanks again!

 

[Ulysses]

Liver is the main processor and a great deal of fructose becomes glucose. If insulin resistance is associated with a fatty/impaired liver, you can't ignore that high-sucrose diets are used in place of starch to make animals reach that state.

Isn't fructose protective of the liver? Those studies where sugar is used to induce NAFLD in animals are always overfeeding them, too. When Lustig debated Alan Aragon, Aragon's central (and unrefuted) point was that all of Lustig's evidence was taken from hypercaloric studies. I haven't seen any evidence that fructose or sucrose can cause fatty liver iso- or hypo-calorically.

 

[Amazoniac]

Isn't fructose protective of the liver? Those studies where sugar is used to induce NAFLD in animals are always overfeeding them, too. When Lustig debated Alan Aragon, Aragon's central (and unrefuted) point was that all of Lustig's evidence was taken from hypercaloric studies. I haven't seen any evidence that fructose or sucrose can cause fatty liver iso- or hypo-calorically.

It depends if it's not overwhelming. The amount varies from a lot for some to a little for others. To err on the side of caution you can assume that a tendency towards glucose as in starchy meals flavored with sweets is safer, but fruit nibbling throughout the day can possibly work. There's no need to overthink it though, people know what's enough or too much for them, the problem is when gurus decide to ignore the clues.

 

[Amazoniac]

How much fructose from lactose escapes digestion?

Milk contains so little fructose that it's probably a result of some sort of spill over in an uncontrolled way from metabolic problems.

Fructose in Breast Milk Is Positively Associated with Infant Body Composition at 6 Months of Age

"the level of fructose in breast milk was extremely low (7 μg/mL), approximately 1/30th the level of glucose. Despite this very low concentration, fructose levels in breastmilk appeared to be biologically relevant. Each 1-μg/mL higher fructose was associated with a 257 g higher body weight, 170 g higher lean mass, 131 g higher fat mass, and 5 g higher bone mineral content at six months of age in our sample."

"Since human milk does not naturally contain fructose [26], our findings highlight maternal intake of fructose-containing products, such as sugar sweetened beverages, as a targetable intervention for reducing exposure to fructose in early life. While previous studies have shown that fructose can be transmitted in utero through the placenta [27,28], our findings extend this literature by identifying breast milk as a potential route of fructose transmission in the postnatal period. Assuming 800 mL daily intake of breast milk, the concentration we observed in our sample would represent approximately 5 mg/day fructose consumption—an amount roughly equal to 1 mg per kg of body weight for a one-month old infant. We recognize that this amount of fructose is very low and far outside the range where fructose is currently known to have physiological effects."​

Glucose and sucrose for diabetes.

"Besides being one of the forms of sugar involved in ordinary energy production, interchangeable with glucose, fructose has some special functions, that aren't as well performed by glucose. It is the main sugar involved in reproduction, in the seminal fluid and intrauterine fluid, and in the developing fetus. After these crucial stages of life are past, glucose becomes the primary molecular source of energy, except when the system is under stress. It has been suggested (Jauniaux, et al., 2005) that the predominance of fructose rather than glucose in the embryo's environment helps to maintain ATP and the oxidative state (cellular redox potential) during development in the low-oxygen environment. The placenta turns glucose from the mother's blood into fructose, and the fructose in the mother's blood can pass through into the fetus, and although glucose can move back from the fetus into the mother's blood, fructose is unable to move in that direction, so a high concentration is maintained in the fluids around the fetus."​

..yet for some reason it's left out of milk. It's almost exclusively composed of glucose, and if this isn't a clear sign that it's safer in the diet, I don't know what can be.

 

[Amazoniac]

Milk lactose and lactulose determination by the differential pH technique

"During heat treatment of milk in processing steps (pasteurisation, sterilisation and UHT treatment), lactose is involved both in the Maillard reaction and in isomerisation and subsequent degradation reactions.
Among the sugars derived from lactose, lactulose undoubtedly represents the most widely studied index for differentiating heated milks and for evaluating the heat load to which milk was subjected [5]. In fact, the lactulose is nowadays used as a marker of heat treatment of milk by the International Dairy Federation (IDF) [7] and by the European Commission (EC) [6] to distinguish UHT milk from in-container sterilised milk. Disaccharide (galactose + fructose) is not normally present in raw milk, but it is formed during heat treatment by isomerisation of lactose [11]."

But the amounts are little:
- Supplement Review: Lactulose - Isomerized Lactose

- Heat-treated milk differentiation by a sensitive lactulose assay​

 

[Amazoniac]

@tyw has his bet on manganese and molybdenum.

 

[Wagner83]

Hey @Kartoffel, recently on an other thread it sounded like you had changed your mind on fructose, did you have a bad experience with it?

 

[Kartoffel]

@Wagner83 No, I haven't changed my mind on it. I think consuming lots of refinded sucrose/fructose isn't very good for the liver. But I get about 300g of sugar every day from OJ, honey, sugar in my coffee, etc, and I don't have any issues with it.

 

[Wagner83]

OK thanks, do you mean you avoid nutrient-less sugar?

 

[X3CyO]

So basically consume equal or more amounts of glucose than fructose or you'll get diarrhea.
Lines up with peats 2 qt milk 2 qt oj therapy. Definitely too much liquid for me though, but a good quick fix.

Could someone explain to me the ATP depletion thing being good? I don't really understand. If we are looking to increase energy rather than metabolism, then we would want to avoid eating so much fructose correct?

 

[Amazoniac]

Should but does it happen realistically ?

Is Fructose Malabsorption a Cause of Irritable Bowel Syndrome?

It really comes down to the individual and self-experimentation. SIBO has been suggested to negatively affect fructose absorption although one study finds it only does significantly for the sugar alcohols and for Lactose. As a vicious circle, gut permeability would favor malabsorption and fructose is suggested to increase gut permeability.
Fructokinase, Fructans, Intestinal Permeability, and Metabolic Syndrome: An Equine Connection?
Fructose: A Dietary Sugar in Crosstalk with Microbiota Contributing to the Development and Progression of Non-Alcoholic Liver Disease

The safest approach seems to be to have small amounts at different instances. Even with IF I can do this, for instance starting the feeding window with a tsp of honey or maple syrup or an orange, eating my largest meal an hour later, maybe another orange 2 hours later, and similarly later some other instances if I feel the desire.

Adaptation does occur but it's often complicated when the person is already compromised.

People can tolerate larger amounts of fructose from pineapples without issues, same for apples.
Various people also tolerate plenty of refined sugar without trouble but small amounts of fruit are troublesome.

Spoiler

So it shows that there's more to the story than maladaptation to the fructose amount. It likely involves infections, intestinal damage, inefficient nutrition, impaired enzymes, complex sugars and so on; all contributing to the viscous circus that you mentioned. Adjustment to it would require solving these as well.

The more challenging the dose, the greater the requirement for nutrients to be able to handle it properly.

Some fructarians consume hospitalizing doses of it and seem to do the fine.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

It seems based on these small "paleo" trials that a lower fat intake is crucial coupled with high protein intake and low caloric intake, and the carbs should be fruits and vegetables and perhaps some tubers and potatoes, but not grains.

There was another study similar as the one I mentioned where they ingested more fat and it gave a poorer (although still good) result, caloric intake was then also somewhat higher, around 1600 kcal I believe, 40E% fats or something.

It was also shown 30 years ago how Australian aboriginals reversed diabetes in just 7 weeks on a 1200 kcal diet, with 52E% protein and 13E% fats. (I mentioned this in another post.)

Im glad I stumbled across this 3 year old post today. Puts things into perspective - there are so many agendas out there that we aren’t moving forward an inch.

It seems that a diet of whole fruit, vegetables, nuts&seeds (heck these could be optional depending on your stance on EFAs, or just eat coconut only idk), game and seafood is NOT profitable so no health authority will embrace the idea that we are opportunistic eaters and what we find in the wild is what the human base diet is like! Impressive.

 

[Elephanto]

@Amazoniac Interesting picture, saved it. Agreeing with what you wrote in general, except for fruitarians I've never really seen one that had an aura of healthiness that makes someone attractive. Most of the ones I've seen give an "heroin junkie" vibe, and the livestyles I've seen in vlogs supported that (staying at home relaxing, being able and eating meals of fruits every 1-2 hours [maybe to prevent the blood sugar rollercoaster I experienced with high sugar and/or high casein diets?] and generally looking low energy). There are of course always going to be exceptions and genetic freaks, other factors to compensate by (like being an highly-trained athlete), people that do fine and many others that develop problems with sugar and it shouldn't be ignored. But I feel sorry for the person who traded intuition for intellectualism (or scientific authoritarianism) and fails to see the effect a repeated action has on his/her health because someone wrote that it was good for him/her. Kinda feel like that's what happened with Jobs, he seemed pretty stubborn in his belief that an high sugar diet would save him from cancer, and well that would be a long post, but I think there are several ways by which it could have fueled it and generally deteriorated his state.

 

[Amazoniac]

@Amazoniac Interesting picture, saved it. Agreeing with what you wrote in general, except for fruitarians I've never really seen one that had an aura of healthiness that makes someone attractive. Most of the ones I've seen give an "heroin junkie" vibe, and the livestyles I've seen in vlogs supported that (staying at home relaxing, being able and eating meals of fruits every 1-2 hours [maybe to prevent the blood sugar rollercoaster I experienced with high sugar and/or high casein diets?] and generally looking low energy). There are of course always going to be exceptions and genetic freaks, other factors to compensate by (like being an highly-trained athlete), people that do fine and many others that develop problems with sugar and it shouldn't be ignored. But I feel sorry for the person who traded intuition for intellectualism (or scientific authoritarianism) and fails to see the effect a repeated action has on his/her health because someone wrote that it was good for him/her. Kinda feel like that's what happened with Jobs, he seemed pretty stubborn in his belief that an high sugar diet would save him from cancer, and well that would be a long post, but I think there are several ways by which it could have fueled it and generally deteriorated his state.

It's true that the more restrictive your diet is, the chances of being malnourished increase. However! I'm afraid this kind of post launches a cursing program in your life that will make you to fall in love with a pretty fruitarian and you'll have no option but to accept being part of her Instagram pics, that happen to always tag Fully Raw Kristina and Texas Fruitarian. You'll also be forced visit with her orange plantations and take those original pictures giving the impression that she's leading you by the hand to a paradise. Just don't bu11shit the visitor, if you're going to fake, fake it right, she won't walk with her legs crossed and you can't get too distracted taking the shot that you forget your wrist in an awkward twisted position making it clear that she's not leading you anywhere.

 

[Sourdoughbanana]

going fruitarian is a very good way to go through the day with very stable blood sugar levels and a good supply of water, fiber, vitamins and minerals

then it's dinner time and that's when it's time to eat large amounds of (whole) animal foods. With the good fats. EZPZ.