Fructose And Endotoxin [edwardjedmonds]

[Koveras]

Fructose- and Sorbitol-reduced Diet Improves Mood and Gastrointestinal Disturbances in Fructose Malabsorbers

"Fructose malabsorption is characterized by a defect of the fructose-related GLUT5 transport system, which is responsible for the duodenal uptake of the mono-saccharide fructose (5). Patients are therefore unable to resorb the ingested monosaccharide sufficiently. As a result fructose reaches the colon, where it is broken down by colon bacteria into short-chain fatty acids, CO2 and H2 usually inducing bloating, abdominal discomfort and sometimes osmotic diarrhea. The type and extent of gastrointestinal discomfort largely depends on the kind of colonic bacterial activity (6)."

"We described recently that fructose malabsorption (9) and lactose malabsorption (10) were associated with early signs of mental depression and mood disturbances in some patients, especially in women."

"Our own observations point to the majority of subjects with irritable bowel syndrome deriving their complaints as a result of a carbohydrate malabsorption syndrome, such as fructose malabsorption, sorbitol malabsorption, lactose maldigestion or xylitol malabsorption (unpublished data). Patients with fructose malabsorption often have a clear history of post-infective onset of their symptoms (19) as has been shown for patients with irritable bowel syndrome (20). However, during the pre-intervention period it was confirmed that all subjects were free of infectious symptoms."

"We have previously shown that fructose malabsorption (9) is associated with early signs of mental depression and decreased serum tryptophan concentrations (21). Earlier studies imply that disturbances of L-tryptophan metabolism are involved in inducing depression (22–24) and pre-menstrual syndrome (25)."

"depressive symptoms and gastrointestinal disturbances in patients with fructose malabsorption was significantly improved by a 4-week period of a fructose-reduced diet"​

Carbohydrate malabsorption = Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) due to hypothyroidism? (SIBO destroying carbohydrate digesting enzymes and damaging the intestines)

"A total of 27 patients with a history of hypothyroidism demonstrated a positive result to the breath test (27 of 50, 54%), compared with two in the control group (two of 40, 5%). The difference was statistically significant (P < 0.001). Abdominal discomfort, flatulence, and bloating were significantly more prevalent in the bacterial overgrowth positive group. These symptoms significantly improved after antibiotic decontamination. "

"The history of overt hypothyroidism is associated with bacterial overgrowth development. Excess bacteria could influence clinical gastrointestinal manifestations. "

"Fifty two strains of anaerobic bacteria isolated from the upper gut of patients with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth were screened for phospholipase activity. Bacteroides melaninogenicus spp intermedius had the greatest activity. The effects of culture supernatants of this organism and deoxycholate on intestinal calcium absorption and disaccharidase activity were studied using a rat closed loop model." ... "Culture supernatant and deoxycholate, both alone and combined, significantly reduced lactase, sucrase, and maltase activity." ... "Electron microscopic evidence showed degeneration of microvilli, disruption of mitochondrial structure, and swelling of the endoplasmic reticulum after exposure of the intestinal loops to the supernatant or deoxycholate."

Lauritano, E. C., Bilotta, A. L., Gabrielli, M., Scarpellini, E., Lupascu, A., Laginestra, A., . . . Gasbarrini, A. (2007). Association between hypothyroidism and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 92(11), 4180-4184. doi:10.1210/jc.2007-0606

Walshe, K., Healy, M. J., Speekenbrink, A. B., Keane, C. T., Weir, D. G., & O'Moore, R. R. (1990). Effects of an enteric anaerobic bacterial culture supernatant and deoxycholate on intestinal calcium absorption and disaccharidase activity. Gut, 31(7), 770-776.​

 

[nbznj]

I am aware that it's all anecdotal at this point but a high dextrose+jasmine rice / moderate fruit diet yields much better energy and higher body temperature for me, than high fructose. I'm biased though, I freakin love dextrose. I just can't see anything wrong with it provided enough fruit and foods rich in nutrients are eaten, and it's dirt cheap. Best way to get my daily calories.

 

[Fractality]

I am aware that it's all anecdotal at this point but a high dextrose+jasmine rice / moderate fruit diet yields much better energy and higher body temperature for me, than high fructose. I'm biased though, I freakin love dextrose. I just can't see anything wrong with it provided enough fruit and foods rich in nutrients are eaten, and it's dirt cheap. Best way to get my daily calories.

Aside from jasmine rice, what do you eat for dextrose? And what fruits do you find are consistently ripe enough to eat daily? Thanks

 

[Amazoniac]

Carbohydrate malabsorption = Small intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) due to hypothyroidism? (SIBO destroying carbohydrate digesting enzymes and damaging the intestines)

"A total of 27 patients with a history of hypothyroidism demonstrated a positive result to the breath test (27 of 50, 54%), compared with two in the control group (two of 40, 5%). The difference was statistically significant (P < 0.001). Abdominal discomfort, flatulence, and bloating were significantly more prevalent in the bacterial overgrowth positive group. These symptoms significantly improved after antibiotic decontamination. "

"The history of overt hypothyroidism is associated with bacterial overgrowth development. Excess bacteria could influence clinical gastrointestinal manifestations. "

"Fifty two strains of anaerobic bacteria isolated from the upper gut of patients with small intestinal bacterial overgrowth were screened for phospholipase activity. Bacteroides melaninogenicus spp intermedius had the greatest activity. The effects of culture supernatants of this organism and deoxycholate on intestinal calcium absorption and disaccharidase activity were studied using a rat closed loop model." ... "Culture supernatant and deoxycholate, both alone and combined, significantly reduced lactase, sucrase, and maltase activity." ... "Electron microscopic evidence showed degeneration of microvilli, disruption of mitochondrial structure, and swelling of the endoplasmic reticulum after exposure of the intestinal loops to the supernatant or deoxycholate."

Lauritano, E. C., Bilotta, A. L., Gabrielli, M., Scarpellini, E., Lupascu, A., Laginestra, A., . . . Gasbarrini, A. (2007). Association between hypothyroidism and small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. J Clin Endocrinol Metab, 92(11), 4180-4184. doi:10.1210/jc.2007-0606

Walshe, K., Healy, M. J., Speekenbrink, A. B., Keane, C. T., Weir, D. G., & O'Moore, R. R. (1990). Effects of an enteric anaerobic bacterial culture supernatant and deoxycholate on intestinal calcium absorption and disaccharidase activity. Gut, 31(7), 770-776.​

This is true, but sometimes I avoid it because 'weak metabolism' can become a lazy explanation for things.
Refering to it as malabsorption can be misleading, it gives an impression that there's something wrong with function or structure when in fact it can be the body rejecting to prevent any burden.

I was thinking about what could help in this situation and tried to order them according to priority:
- manganese
- niacinamide
- magnesium
- copper
- vit D
- methionine proteids
- gelatin
- taurine
- choline
- pyridoxine
- zinc
- natural B-complex extract
- vit C
- vit K

- caffeine
- phleboytomy

Spoiler: Justifications and references:

[ ] I agree that the poster has little clue of what he's talking about, I'm fully responsible for my death and my family won't go after him with rolling pins.

 

[nbznj]

Aside from jasmine rice, what do you eat for dextrose? And what fruits do you find are consistently ripe enough to eat daily? Thanks

it's actually dextrose powder, 200+ grams before/during/after a workout on weekdays. Bananas get ripe quick. Get the apples that aren't waxed. I also have a juice extractor. Then tubers/roots, they make great purées

 

[Amazoniac]

This is true, but sometimes I avoid it because 'weak metabolism' can become a lazy explanation for things.
Refering to it as malabsorption can be misleading, it gives an impression that there's something wrong with function or structure when in fact it can be the body rejecting to prevent any burden.

I was thinking about what could help in this situation and tried to order them according to priority:
- manganese
- niacinamide
- magnesium
- copper
- vit D
- methionine proteids
- gelatin
- taurine
- choline
- pyridoxine
- zinc
- natural B-complex extract
- vit C
- vit K

- caffeine
- phleboytomy

Spoiler: Justifications and references:

View attachment 8219

[ ] I agree that the poster has little clue of what he's talking about, I'm fully responsible for my death and my family won't go after him with rolling pins.

Koveras, when you bring the crystal ball to a soccer crowd and point to its friend being bullied, it starts releasing clues:
EFFECTS OF MANGANESE ON THYROID HORMONE HOMEOSTASIS: POTENTIAL LINKS

 

[Wagner83]

If fructose is only an issue for some people when consumed in without glucose (or at least the ratio is not enough in favor of glucose), then how is it an issue for anyone? Apart from a few members of these forums and perhaps some paleo/keto guys (low in carbs anyway) I don't see how this is relevant to the population in real life.

Re: Fructose and Endotoxin

http://evolvinghealthscience.blogspot.c ... -john.html

What he's found is that with a fructose load 50 percent goes to glucose, about 25 percent goes to lactate, greater than 15 percent and up goes to glycogen, the remainder would be oxidized directly [going to CO2 through the TCA cycle], and a small portion contributed to de novo lipogenesis.[...]In animals, de novo lipogenesis is quantitatively significant. It doesn't appear in humans with high-carbohydrate feeding and the same is true even under high-fructose feeding. We see this very robust de novo lipogenesis in animals. We don't see it in humans.

[...]

JS: The study you're quoting, or the meta-analysis we did, was looking at so-called small or catalytic doses of fructose at a level that would be obtainable from fruit (so, basically, less than 10g per meal). We took that to mean 36g per day (meaning 10g per meal and two snacks with 3g each; like 30 percent of a meal). That's how we came up with eligibility criteria for that meta-analysis. That was just a snapshot that looked at low doses of fructose.

We saw this benefit for hemoglobin A1c (HbA(1c)) -- almost a 0.5 percent reduction. That's a 0.5 percent absolute reduction (not a proportion) similar to what you would see with antidiabetic agents at the lower range of efficacy. And, we saw that without adverse effects on triglycerides, body weight, insulin, and uric acid. So, we concluded that there was an overall a net metabolic benefit from these low doses of fructose at a level really that is obtainable from fruit.

That correlated quite nicely with what we saw in a very large glycemic index trial we published in patients with type 2 diabetes. What was the most important low-glycemic index food item that best predicted reduction of HbA(1c)? It was low-glycemic index fruit. The level of fructose that you would've obtained with the most commonly consumed low-glycemic index fruit (apples, it turns out) would be 10g per serving. So it fit nicely with this idea of this catalytic dose of about 10g per meal. And in that study we saw an identical 0.5 percent reduction of HbA(1c) units. So, further confirming that there may be something to fruit.
​

That's a pretty huge amount going to glucose and lactate. Apart from a small dose with each meal for better glycemic index/blood sugar control it's hard to see why it would be better than glucose . Put in an other way apart from eating fruits and their vitamins and minerals, eating a lot of fructose as sucrose and fruit (apple) juices doesn't make much sense.

 

[Amazoniac]

If fructose is only an issue for some people when consumed in without glucose (or at least the ratio is not enough in favor of glucose), then how is it an issue for anyone? Apart from a few members of these forums and perhaps some paleo/keto guys (low in carbs anyway) I don't see how this is relevant to the population in real life.

What he's found is that with a fructose load 50 percent goes to glucose, about 25 percent goes to lactate, greater than 15 percent and up goes to glycogen, the remainder would be oxidized directly [going to CO2 through the TCA cycle], and a small portion contributed to de novo lipogenesis.[...]In animals, de novo lipogenesis is quantitatively significant. It doesn't appear in humans with high-carbohydrate feeding and the same is true even under high-fructose feeding. We see this very robust de novo lipogenesis in animals. We don't see it in humans.

[...]

JS: The study you're quoting, or the meta-analysis we did, was looking at so-called small or catalytic doses of fructose at a level that would be obtainable from fruit (so, basically, less than 10g per meal). We took that to mean 36g per day (meaning 10g per meal and two snacks with 3g each; like 30 percent of a meal). That's how we came up with eligibility criteria for that meta-analysis. That was just a snapshot that looked at low doses of fructose.

We saw this benefit for hemoglobin A1c (HbA(1c)) -- almost a 0.5 percent reduction. That's a 0.5 percent absolute reduction (not a proportion) similar to what you would see with antidiabetic agents at the lower range of efficacy. And, we saw that without adverse effects on triglycerides, body weight, insulin, and uric acid. So, we concluded that there was an overall a net metabolic benefit from these low doses of fructose at a level really that is obtainable from fruit.

That correlated quite nicely with what we saw in a very large glycemic index trial we published in patients with type 2 diabetes. What was the most important low-glycemic index food item that best predicted reduction of HbA(1c)? It was low-glycemic index fruit. The level of fructose that you would've obtained with the most commonly consumed low-glycemic index fruit (apples, it turns out) would be 10g per serving. So it fit nicely with this idea of this catalytic dose of about 10g per meal. And in that study we saw an identical 0.5 percent reduction of HbA(1c) units. So, further confirming that there may be something to fruit.
​

That's a pretty huge amount going to glucose and lactate. Apart from a small dose with each meal for better glycemic index/blood sugar control it's hard to see why it would be better than glucose . Put in an other way apart from eating fruits and their vitamins and minerals, eating a lot of fructose as sucrose and fruit (apple) juices doesn't make much sense.

Wagner, for some reason I don't receive your alerts. I think you once asked something to Zeus and it appeared to me that he didn't receive either.

Fructose is metabolized in the liver and many people have it compromised. The amount that overwhelms the ability to process fructose can be diminished depending on other factors than just the glucose/fructose ratio. I think it's possible to adapt to higher fructose intakes as long as you provide what's needed.

Fructose/Liver Function

 

[Wagner83]

Well maybe the Forum is sparing / protecting both of you. It may have to do with me editing my post afterwards and adding the quote. I asked haidut in a thread a similar question but that was a long time ago me thinks, I could not find it.

I'll edit my post to copy and paste yours, tell us if you are notified with being quoted.

Ok, is the conversion to lactate caused by an inadapted liver then? I remember tyw did not see the advantage or the point of consuming fructose over glucose, and he seemed to do well with his rice diet. Any thoughts on how to adapt to eating whole fruits? I feel like crap when I eat them or dark leafy green veggies (fibers in general except potatoes), JamesIV reported something similar and that he had to go against a lot of what is recommended here to improve his health through diet (no fermentable fibers, more fat, starchy fruits and tubers).
Thanks for the link I'll check it now.

Edit:

Wagner, for some reason I don't receive your alerts. I think you once asked something to Zeus and it appeared to me that he didn't receive either.

Fructose is metabolized in the liver and many people have it compromised. The amount that overwhelms the ability to process fructose can be diminished depending on other factors than just the glucose/fructose ratio. I think it's possible to adapt to higher fructose intakes as long as you provide what's needed.

Fructose/Liver Function

 

[Kartoffel]

Fructose is metabolized in the liver and many people have it compromised. The amount that overwhelms the ability to process fructose can be diminished depending on other factors than just the glucose/fructose ratio. I think it's possible to adapt to higher fructose intakes as long as you provide what's needed.

Fructose/Liver Function

I don't think fructose in itself is any burden for the liver. I also don't think that natural fructose or fructose from sucrose would yield anything close to 25% conversion to lactate. Almost all of these studies are done with refined fructose, which can cause severe endotoxemia that would explain the increase in lactate. Fructose actually protects the liver from all sorts of toxins, and the ATP "depletion" that was mentioned in this thread is one of the protective effects that prevents apoptosis.

The effects of fructose on adenosine triphosphate depletion following mitochondrial dysfunction and lethal cell injury in isolated rat hepatocytes. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Amazoniac]

Well maybe the Forum is sparing / protecting both of you. It may have to do with me editing my post afterwards and adding the quote. I asked haidut in a thread a similar question but that was a long time ago me thinks, I could not find it.

I'll edit my post to copy and paste yours, tell us if you are notified with being quoted.

Ok, is the conversion to lactate caused by an inadapted liver then? I remember tyw did not see the advantage or the point of consuming fructose over glucose, and he seemed to do well with his rice diet. Any thoughts on how to adapt to eating whole fruits? I feel like crap when I eat them or dark leafy green veggies (fibers in general except potatoes), JamesIV reported something similar and that he had to go against a lot of what is recommended here to improve his health through diet (no fermentable fibers, more fat, starchy fruits and tubers).
Thanks for the link I'll check it now.

Edit:

No notification((

I don't either, at least in excess. Since the amount in fruits is more or less half glucose and half fructose, and starches are mostly glucose, the optimal amount varies from person to person but is somewhere in between. After all this time I still believe that most people do better on much more glucose than fructose, so starches should be favored.

Lactate appears when there's excess hydrogens, which means excess energy in relation to the capability to oxidize. If it indeed appears after consumption of too much fructose, it means that it's overwhelming the liver. It doesn't mean that fructose consumption is bad.

If you eat a lot of fruits, in my opinion it's safer to have various small meals throughout the day rather than more marked cycles of eating and fasting as it occurs with denser starchy meals.

Cascara sagrada helps you to get rid of the food before decay, leaving only enough time for upper intestine digestion.

A diet low in fat should spare sucholine, which my crystal ball forgot to add to the post above. I think I'll threaten it with a sandpaper or steelwool for more information.

 

[Amazoniac]

I don't think fructose in itself is any burden for the liver. I also don't think that natural fructose or fructose from sucrose would yield anything close to 25% conversion to lactate. Almost all of these studies are done with refined fructose, which can cause severe endotoxemia that would explain the increase in lactate. Fructose actually protects the liver from all sorts of toxins, and the ATP "depletion" that was mentioned in this thread is one of the protective effects that prevents apoptosis.

The effects of fructose on adenosine triphosphate depletion following mitochondrial dysfunction and lethal cell injury in isolated rat hepatocytes. - PubMed - NCBI

If you click on the related review, you already find that it's a matter of amount. It's quite easy to find discussions on how fructose is more demanding, which in turn is easier to become excessive. This is not a campaign against fructose, it's just a matter of matching what one can process at a time.

 

[charlie]

I'll edit my post to copy and paste yours, tell us if you are notified with being quoted.

The forum software will not notify on edit. The call must be contained within the original post.

 

[Wagner83]

The forum software will not notify on edit. The call must be contained within the original post.

Ok thanks.

 

[Kartoffel]

If you click on the related review, you already find that it's a matter of amount. It's quite easy to find discussions on how fructose is more demanding, which in turn is easier to become excessive. This is not a campaign against fructose, it's just a matter of matching what one can process at a time.

Can you define what you mean by demanding? Also, how do any of these studies with pure, refined fructose relate to anything in the real world? Except for some exotic ones, there are no foods containing only/mostly fructose. Fructose is almost always accompanied by equal amounts of glucose. Fructose and sucrose are much better for glycemic control and will reverse reactive hypoglycemia whereas pure glucose
exacerbates it.

 

[tca300]

Many fruits contain slightly or much more fructose than glucose. Grapes, honeydew melon, oranges, apples, pears...

 

[ilikecats]

Lol if you haven't kept up with Edward Edmonds he's currently eating pizza, pasta, rice and soda frequently. So take that article with a grain of salt. I admire that he has the stones to admit that he changed his position on certain topics/

 

[tca300]

Lol if you haven't kept up with Edward Edmonds he's currently eating pizza, pasta, rice and soda frequently. So take that article with a grain of salt. I admire that he has the stones to admit that he changed his position on certain topics/

Lol doritos too.

 

[ilikecats]

Lol doritos too.

doritos increase dopamine synthesis through activating the NostalgiaFeelz "receptor"

 

[tca300]

doritos increase dopamine synthesis through activating the NostalgiaFeelz "receptor"

Oh shoot! I had no idea