Covid Intubation Cause Of Panicking?

[Motif]

Theory of a friend of mine is that a lot of covid patients that are intubated are just lacking oxygen cause they are hyperventilating from panicking.
I guess that’s absolutely not true, but still wanted to hear some opinions on it.

He’s saying long term symptoms have probably just a mental cause too btw

 

[Blossom]

The weird thing about low oxygen in covid is that the person usually doesn’t show the typical panicking one would usually see. I believe this is because prior to being placed on a ventilator the lungs are functioning normally and the source of the low oxygen is coming from the red blood cells not the taking up oxygen.
Lots of people have post viral syndrome or lingering problems after numerous viruses so I’m thinking it’s not solely psychological although there’s probably some lingering trauma after being hospitalized.

 

[Blossom]

People are also given a sedative prior to intubation and while on a ventilator. This is slowly weaned in preparation to remove the tube. Most people do panic while they are on a ventilator (for covid or something else) if the sedation medication is late or missed for some reason. Being on a ventilator is pretty unsettling due to the tube itself and positive pressure forcing air into the lungs. It’s like blowing up a balloon. Normal breathing is on a negative pressure gradient so it makes sense that the body would perceive air being forced into the lungs as a threat.

 

[DennisX]

Out of all the people who have died from or with COVID what percentage of them were on ventilators? In NY , I read that 90% died on ventilators.

 

[Motif]

Up

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Out of all the people who have died from or with COVID what percentage of them were on ventilators? In NY , I read that 90% died on ventilators.

The Haldane-Bohr effect describes the fact that oxygen and carbon dioxide destabilize each other’s binding to hemoglobin. When oxygen pressure is high, the blood releases its carbon dioxide more easily. In stormy weather, or at high altitude, the lower oxygen pressure allows the body to retain more carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide, produced in the cells, releases oxygen into the tissues, relaxes blood vessels, prevents edema, eliminates ammonia, and increases the efficiency of oxidative metabolism.

Hyperventilation, breathing excessively and causing too much carbon dioxide to be lost, is similar to being in the presence of too much oxygen; it’s similar to being at low altitude with high atmospheric pressure, only worse. Therefore, the physiological events produced by hyperventilation can give us an insight into what happens when the atmospheric pressure is low, by looking at the events in reverse. Likewise, breathing 100% oxygen has known harmful consequences, which are very similar to those produced by hyperventilation.

Hyperventilation is defined as breathing enough to produce respiratory alkalosis from the loss of carbon dioxide. Lactic acid is produced in response to the alkalosis of hyperventilation.

Breathing too much oxygen displaces too much carbon dioxide, provoking an increase in lactic acid; too much lactate displaces both oxygen and carbon dioxide. Lactate itself tends to suppress respiration.

Oxygen toxicity and hyperventilation create a systemic deficiency of carbon dioxide. It is this carbon dioxide deficiency that makes breathing more difficult in pure oxygen, that impairs the heart’s ability to work, and that increases the resistance of blood vessels, impairing circulation and oxygen delivery to tissues. In conditions that permit greater carbon dioxide retention, circulation is improved and the heart works more effectively. Carbon dioxide inhibits the production of lactic acid, and lactic acid lowers carbon dioxide's concentratrion in a variety of ways..
​

Altitude and Mortality

 

[Giraffe]

Out of all the people who have died from or with COVID what percentage of them were on ventilators? In NY , I read that 90% died on ventilators.

Below some figures from Germany. Critics here say (on public TV !) that approximately 40% of those patients were very sick people who lived in care homes. To put them in hospital and on a ventilator is inhumane. Their prognosis was very, very bad right from the start.

Another point is: Patients in ICU are tested daily. We know that patients in ICU are those who are in a critical condition, and very many of them will die. We know what a false-positive is, and that you produce many false-positives if you test a lot.

To answer your question we would also need to know how many people with positive PCR-test actually died in hospital, but this information is hard to get.

Approximately one fifth of hospitalized Covid-19 patients died

High mortality rate among ventilated patients

Slightly more than half of all patients requiring mechanical ventilation died (53 percent). The highest rates were among patients aged 70 to 79 (63 percent) and patients aged over 80 (72 percent). The mortality rate for ventilated patients treated with dialysis due to kidney failure during hospitalization (27 percent of all ventilated patients) was also very high at 73 percent. The mortality rates for men and women requiring ventilation were similar. The number of patients not receiving ventilation who died was significantly lower, but still reached 16 percent.

 

[Motif]

The Haldane-Bohr effect describes the fact that oxygen and carbon dioxide destabilize each other’s binding to hemoglobin. When oxygen pressure is high, the blood releases its carbon dioxide more easily. In stormy weather, or at high altitude, the lower oxygen pressure allows the body to retain more carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide, produced in the cells, releases oxygen into the tissues, relaxes blood vessels, prevents edema, eliminates ammonia, and increases the efficiency of oxidative metabolism.

Hyperventilation, breathing excessively and causing too much carbon dioxide to be lost, is similar to being in the presence of too much oxygen; it’s similar to being at low altitude with high atmospheric pressure, only worse. Therefore, the physiological events produced by hyperventilation can give us an insight into what happens when the atmospheric pressure is low, by looking at the events in reverse. Likewise, breathing 100% oxygen has known harmful consequences, which are very similar to those produced by hyperventilation.

Hyperventilation is defined as breathing enough to produce respiratory alkalosis from the loss of carbon dioxide. Lactic acid is produced in response to the alkalosis of hyperventilation.

Breathing too much oxygen displaces too much carbon dioxide, provoking an increase in lactic acid; too much lactate displaces both oxygen and carbon dioxide. Lactate itself tends to suppress respiration.

Oxygen toxicity and hyperventilation create a systemic deficiency of carbon dioxide. It is this carbon dioxide deficiency that makes breathing more difficult in pure oxygen, that impairs the heart’s ability to work, and that increases the resistance of blood vessels, impairing circulation and oxygen delivery to tissues. In conditions that permit greater carbon dioxide retention, circulation is improved and the heart works more effectively. Carbon dioxide inhibits the production of lactic acid, and lactic acid lowers carbon dioxide's concentratrion in a variety of ways..
​

Altitude and Mortality

What could be done to not end up with high lactate etc?

 

[ecstatichamster]

What could be done to not end up with high lactate etc?

provide CO2 with the oxygen at 5% of the mix.

 

[Motif]

provide CO2 with the oxygen at 5% of the mix.

And what Could be done to prevent getting in the position to be in need to get intubation? Any idea ?

 

[boris]

And what Could be done to prevent getting in the position to be in need to get intubation? Any idea ?

Simple: Not going to the hospital.

Just eat a nice bone broth at home and rest.

If you read the reports from doctors, they all say the same. The COVID patient was fine, then they measure their oxygen levels and the doctor is shocked to see it very low (it‘s actually a sign of healing). They call them „happy hypoxic“, because they are stable and show absolutley no symptoms of needing extra oxygen (let alone forced intubation, a nasal canula would be fine). They put them on the ventilator either way „because the numbers say so!“, the patient suddenly becomes unstable and dies. What a shock. The same story over and over.

 

[tankasnowgod]

And what Could be done to prevent getting in the position to be in need to get intubation? Any idea ?

Don't go to a hospital in the first place.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Out of all the people who have died from or with COVID what percentage of them were on ventilators? In NY , I read that 90% died on ventilators.

I'm assuming that the "Covid Victims" that died from motorcycle crashes and gunshots weren't.

 

[SonOfEurope]

The Haldane-Bohr effect describes the fact that oxygen and carbon dioxide destabilize each other’s binding to hemoglobin. When oxygen pressure is high, the blood releases its carbon dioxide more easily. In stormy weather, or at high altitude, the lower oxygen pressure allows the body to retain more carbon dioxide. Carbon dioxide, produced in the cells, releases oxygen into the tissues, relaxes blood vessels, prevents edema, eliminates ammonia, and increases the efficiency of oxidative metabolism.​

​

Hyperventilation, breathing excessively and causing too much carbon dioxide to be lost, is similar to being in the presence of too much oxygen; it’s similar to being at low altitude with high atmospheric pressure, only worse. Therefore, the physiological events produced by hyperventilation can give us an insight into what happens when the atmospheric pressure is low, by looking at the events in reverse. Likewise, breathing 100% oxygen has known harmful consequences, which are very similar to those produced by hyperventilation.​

​

Hyperventilation is defined as breathing enough to produce respiratory alkalosis from the loss of carbon dioxide. Lactic acid is produced in response to the alkalosis of hyperventilation.​

​

Breathing too much oxygen displaces too much carbon dioxide, provoking an increase in lactic acid; too much lactate displaces both oxygen and carbon dioxide. Lactate itself tends to suppress respiration.​

​

Oxygen toxicity and hyperventilation create a systemic deficiency of carbon dioxide. It is this carbon dioxide deficiency that makes breathing more difficult in pure oxygen, that impairs the heart’s ability to work, and that increases the resistance of blood vessels, impairing circulation and oxygen delivery to tissues. In conditions that permit greater carbon dioxide retention, circulation is improved and the heart works more effectively. Carbon dioxide inhibits the production of lactic acid, and lactic acid lowers carbon dioxide's concentratrion in a variety of ways..​

​

Altitude and Mortality

Thanks Hugh!

 

[Perry Staltic]

Theory of a friend of mine is that a lot of covid patients that are intubated are just lacking oxygen cause they are hyperventilating from panicking.

That's what the whistle blower nurse from Elmhurst hospital said was happening.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Normal breathing is on a negative pressure gradient so it makes sense that the body would perceive air being forced into the lungs as a threat.

Lungs respond to hospital ventilator as if it were an infection

When hospital patients are placed on a mechanical ventilator for days at a time, their lungs react to the pressure with an out-of-control immune response. Researchers have discovered potential drug targets that might reduce the resulting inflammation.

www.sciencedaily.com

 

[Blossom]

Lungs respond to hospital ventilator as if it were an infection

When hospital patients are placed on a mechanical ventilator for days at a time, their lungs react to the pressure with an out-of-control immune response. Researchers have discovered potential drug targets that might reduce the resulting inflammation.

www.sciencedaily.com

Thank you for the excellent article! I was thinking of it more from a baroreceptor—> barotrauma angle but this ties in nicely.

 

[lvysaur]

The weird thing about low oxygen in covid is that the person usually doesn’t show the typical panicking one would usually see. I believe this is because prior to being placed on a ventilator the lungs are functioning normally and the source of the low oxygen is coming from the red blood cells not the taking up oxygen.

Yep, it's called "happy hypoxia". Doctors are so dumbfounded by it that most of them deny that it exists, and when presented with evidence, just pretend the oximeter was faulty.

It is probably involved with nitric oxide, which counteracts CO2

Stephanie was horrified to discover that her son's oxygen levels had plummeted to just 44 per cent - a healthy person's blood oxygen levels are between 95 to 100 per cent.
"As a nurse, I have never seen someone walking and talking with an oxygen saturation level of just 44 per cent.

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I'm what doctors would call a "moderate" case, and I've had O2 sats as low as 65%...but they always go back up to 98 after a minute or so.

 

[Blossom]

Yep, it's called "happy hypoxia". Doctors are so dumbfounded by it that most of them deny that it exists, and when presented with evidence, just pretend the oximeter was faulty.

It is probably involved with nitric oxide, which counteracts CO2

Blood of boy, 13, sprayed over hospital wall as he died from Covid battle

SHOCKING pics show how the blood of a 13-year-old boy sprayed over a hospital wall as he died from Covid complications after a coughing fit. A bereaved mother has shared the horrifying images of th…

www.the-sun.com

I'm what doctors would call a "moderate" case, and I've had O2 sats as low as 65%...but they always go back up to 98 after a minute or so.

Yes, I’ve seen people walking around and talking with cyanotic extremities and sats in the 60’s. It would be good to have an ABG when this is occurring. The body can compensate quite a bit but the problem is what might happen if it doesn’t and doctors aren’t usually willing (understandably) to wait primarily due to liability and wrongful death lawsuits.

 

[lvysaur]

Yes, I’ve seen people walking around and talking with cyanotic extremities and sats in the 60’s.

was this before COVID?