CO2 Skin Therapy

[tinkerer]

After having learned about the CO2 bag therapy suggestions of Ray Peat and Peatarian, I was looking for a CO2 therapy for wound/scar healing and found this. It's a bit odd, but it would [reach] my wound, which is on my scalp on the back of my head, as well as my face and internally.

Unisex Latex Rebreathing Mask, Breathing Control Latex Hood
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unisex-Latex-Re ... 2c6f4cb3e3
$42 + 15 S&H = $57

This gave me the idea to try the cheaper option of putting a plastic bag over my head and sealing it with a rubber band around the neck and breathing until it starts to become uncomfortable.

Any other ideas?

 

[jyb]

Have you tried LED or lazers with red spectrum? In some studies red and infrared spectrum are tested specifically for wounds. Stuff like niacinamide and coffee can help damaged skin, cf. Ray's article on Rosacea, but maybe that for wounds some powerful localized lights like lazers would be more effective?

For CO2, why not use some kind of special band aid, as it can be left on for a long time? For internal CO2, it seems like bag breathing a few minutes a day is enough so no need for special equipment.

 

[tara]

This gave me the idea to try the cheaper option of putting a plastic bag over my head and sealing it with a rubber band around the neck and breathing until it starts to become uncomfortable.
Any other ideas?

Hi. I'd be very cautious about/avoid sealing a plastic bag over your head. :? CO2 concentration will get too high (a few %), and oxygen too low, long before the CO2 gets high enough at the skin to make much difference. The dry C02 baths aim for 95%; I'm not sure how close to this it needs to be to be effective. If you breath over 5%, you're likely to get drowsy; a few more % and it can get dangerous quickly. You don't want to fall asleep with a bag tied on. If you do try it, I suggest making sure you have someone in the room with you to take the bag off if you get drowsy.

The other suggestions sound safer, and may help.

 

[fyo]

A light plastic trash bag works. I tie it over my mouth, to the back of the head, but under my nose. Then I can breath air through the nose as desired, and CO2 through the mouth/skin elsewise.

 

[Blossom]

A light plastic trash bag works. I tie it over my mouth, to the back of the head, but under my nose. Then I can breath air through the nose as desired, and CO2 through the mouth/skin elsewise.

I have to admit I worry a little about breathing into plastic bags. It seems like one might absorb some plastics into the body similar to drinking from plastic containers. This is just anecdotal but there was a study on newborns in the ICU several years ago and they found high levels of plastics in their bodies from the breathing tubes and IV tubing. You could argue that they are smaller and had the tubes in 24/7. I'm just going to stick to my plain old paper bag personally. I know we all have to do what is best for our own situation but just wanted to mention that in case it is of interest to anyone.

 

[tinkerer]

jyb, I've been thinking of getting a red light. I've seen lots of disagreement over which lights and which spectrums are best. I guess I'll probably go with the type Ray Peat recommended. I could get these at Amazon with free shipping, unless you have a better recommendation:

Phillips 416743 Heat Lamp 250-Watt BR40 Clear Flood Light Bulb [incandescent]
by Philips
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0066L ... =rapefo-20
$8.97
Recommended by Ray Peat per Charlie at viewtopic.php?f=3&t=187&start=370#p34860

or this one has the 130 volts that Ray recommended:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ST ... 41I8IRE98K

Bayco SL-302B3 10-1/2-Inch Brooder Clamp Light with Porcelain Ceramic Socket
$10.97
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0061MZ4Q6

Has anyone noticed any benefits from red light?

Tara, Thanks for the info about bag-breathing CO2 being insufficient for external therapy.

Your mention of bath bombs gave me the idea to make homemade CO2 bath bombs. Thanks for that. Now I know why ladies do bubble baths. :)

Fyo, I like the under-nose idea, but it sounds like the CO2 level is too low to benefit the skin, unless you're using a CO2 tank?

Blossom, I'm concerned about the plastic too. I was thinking it would be a temporary therapy, rather than a long-term one. I looked into using a CO2 tank, but it was expensive and complicated. A paper bag unfortunately won't work for my scalp. I do use paper when doing internal therapy. I suspect that the paper bags contain toxins too, but probably less.

So folks won't freak out too much, I should explain that by using a rubber band seal, some air leaks in and out of the bag, and the bag was a flimsy shopping bag, so there doesn't appear to be much risk of suffocation or falling asleep, but I did sit up and kept a finger under the band when first testing it anyway. At least I got folks' attention. :) The ebay advertised vinyl mask that someone suggested at another forum looks especially dangerous. I can only imagine that there must be some tiny holes to allow some air in, or at least I hope so.


Thanks for the tips, folks.

 

[tara]

Has anyone noticed any benefits from red light?

Tara, Thanks for the info about bag-breathing CO2 being insufficient for external therapy.

Your mention of bath bombs gave me the idea to make homemade CO2 bath bombs. Thanks for that. Now I know why ladies do bubble baths. :)

Fyo, I like the under-nose idea, but it sounds like the CO2 level is too low to benefit the skin, unless you're using a CO2 tank?

I sometime sit in front of my cheap strong halogen lights. I usu feel good for it temporarily, can't tell if it's making longer term difference. Not tried rigorously on specific injuries. It could be the heat as well as the light that I like. Possibly not optimal spectrum, but cheap and pleasant.
Not sure who mentioned bath bombs? I don't know what they are made of, but maybe they release a little CO2 in the water. I doubt if they're enough to make much difference. The dry CO2 baths I meant are the ones done with a high pressure tank, as you've investigated. If you figure out a way to make homemade bath bombs, and they seem to make a difference, please let us know. I think you'd probably need quite a lot.
I think that's right that under-the-nose bag breating wouldn't get up to a high enough concentration to affect skin.

 

[jyb]

jyb, I've been thinking of getting a red light. I've seen lots of disagreement over which lights and which spectrums are best. I guess I'll probably go with the type Ray Peat recommended. I could get these at Amazon with free shipping, unless you have a better recommendation:

You linked to some heat lamps it seems, not incandescent. I thought that incandescent was better as they have more of the red spectrum, less energy wasted in the infrared /heat. It's easier to find heat lamps and their fixings, though. Maybe if you have enough total wattage, you'd get a good amount of the red spectrum even with a heat lamp.

 

[tinkerer]

They are incandescent bulbs. For example, if you look at the listed "Type of Bulb" for the "Phillips [sic] 416743 Heat Lamp 250-Watt BR40 Clear Flood Light Bulb" at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0066L ... =rapefo-20 it says "Incandescent," and I labeled it as such. "Heat lamp" and "Flood Light" are just common uses for it.

These clear incandescent heat/flood light bulbs are the bulbs that Ray Peat and Danny Roddy recommended, though some at this forum think there are better types, but there didn't seem to be a consensus on which type is best. I decided to go with Ray and Danny's recommended type for now.

 

[tinkerer]

I'm using various Peaty methods to try to improve the wound healing. I bought the exact infrared incandescent bulb that Ray recommends and am using that. I also make a skin gel mix that I apply to the wound in the evening:

coconut oil
Progest-E complex
Great Lakes Gelatin
raw honey
clay

I also do some paper bag breathing. I am also doing lots of the other general Ray Peat diet, aspirin, etc. recommendations to maximize CO2 and health.

Does this sound good? Any other recommendations?

 

[Blossom]

In a recent KMUD radio interview Ray said the following about wounds:

Sugar had been used to cure wounds, like in emergency situations they found that when they didn't have antibiotics they could do open heart surgery and pack the wound with pure white sucrose and prevent scarring and promote healing better than with the fancy antibiotics. Honey has been used for thousands of years that way to cure wounds.

I see you are already using honey so I thought I'd post this quote because it verifies that honey/sugar seems to be appropriate (and I love RP quotes).

 

[tara]

I'm using various Peaty methods to try to improve the wound healing. I bought the exact infrared incandescent bulb that Ray recommends and am using that. I also make a skin gel mix that I apply to the wound in the evening:

coconut oil
Progest-E complex
Great Lakes Gelatin
raw honey
clay

I also do some paper bag breathing. I am also doing lots of the other general Ray Peat diet, aspirin, etc. recommendations to maximize CO2 and health.

Does this sound good? Any other recommendations?

I think I've read that studies of using sugar for wounds use very high concentrations - can't remember the numbers exactly, but it migh have been around 90%. I wouldn't add any more water to this mix than you strictly need.
What is the clay for? I'm not saying don't use it, I'm just curious about how it might work.

 

[tinkerer]

Thanks. I don't add any water. The medicinal clay is for sealing it off and increasing healing, in part by increasing the CO2.

 

[tinkerer]

Update: At the final followup visit with the surgeon I asked if the wound is healing better, worse or the same as average and he said the same as average.

 

[charlie]

What do you think?

 

[tinkerer]

I think he's probably right, though it's hard to tell, as I can't see the wound very well, being on the back of my head.

I see that Ray also recommends these as topicals:

aspirin
niacinamide
vitamin K
coenzyme Q10

I'll give 'em a try.

 

[Blossom]

I personally liked the sugar better than the honey although my wound was very minor. The healing properties were probably equal but the stickiness of the honey kept irritating the area when my clothing would stick to it and have to be peeled away. I suppose that wouldn't be an issue on an area that didn't have to be covered.
A friend gave me a water proof bandaid weekend before last and I used it to cover a small spot on my leg that looks similar to basal cell. I kept it on for three days and the spot was imperceptible when I removed it. I got the spot last summer when I was eating tons of PUFA and got sunburned. I think bandage trapped the CO2.
Good luck with your wound tinkerer. I hope it continues to heal well and please keep us posted!