CO2, Lactate, And Cancer

[Mr. God of Cars]

I have some doubts.

Cancer cells, which are alkaline, surround themselves with the acids (using lactic acid) they emit.

Carbon dioxide is produced under the influence of thyroid and sugar oxidation.

Normal cells are acidic and their environment is alkaline. Cancer cells are alkaline and their environment is acidic.

So, if carbon dioxide is found in and out of tissues, then does carbon dioxide acidify the extracellular environment, making cells more prone to absorb fatty acids, leading to the production of the toxic lactic acid?

If so, then how would carbon dioxide, sugar, and thyroid be beneficial, and associated with low stress, low incidence of diabetes and obesity, and high longevity, i.e., health?

 

[Koveras]

Comparison: Carbon Dioxide v. Lactic Acid – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Quotes by Ray Peat, PhD:
“Lactic acid and carbon dioxide have opposing effects.”

“Oxidation of sugar is metabolically efficient in many ways, including sparing oxygen consumption. It produces more carbon dioxide than oxidizing fat does, and carbon dioxide has many protective functions, including increasing Krebs cycle activity and inhibiting toxic damage to proteins.”

“If the oxidative metabolism of a cell is compared to a flame, lactic acid is the smoke that’s produced when there isn’t enough oxygen, or when the temperature is too low. Both a cell and a flame produce produce carbon dioxide when nothing interferes with their oxidation.”

The end product of respiration is carbon dioxide, and it is an essential component of the life process. The ability to produce and retain enough carbon dioxide is as important for longevity as the ability to conserve enough heat to allow chemical reactions to occur as needed.

“Sugar can be used to produce energy with or without oxygen, but oxidative metabolism is about 15 times more efficient than the non-oxidative “glycolytic” or fermentive metabolism; higher organisms depend on this high efficiency oxidation for maintaining integration and normal functioning: If there is a small interference with respiration, the organism can adapt by increasing the rate of glycolysis, but there must be enough sugar to meet the demand. A response to stimulation is the production of more energy, with a proportional increase of oxygen and sugar consumption by the stimulated tissue; this produces more carbon dioxide. which enlarges the blood vessels in the area, providing more sugar and oxygen. If the irritation becomes destructive, efficiency is lost: oxygen is either consumed wastefully, causing blueness of the tissue (assuming circulation continues: blueness can also indicate bad circulation), or is not consumed. causing redness of the tissue. As more sugar is consumed in compensation , lactic acid also enlarges the blood vessels.

If the inflamed or exhausted tissue is small, the lactic acid can be consumed by other oxidizing tissues, sufficient sugar usually can be supplied, and repair occurs. But a large inflammation. or profound exhaustion, will lower the blood sugar systemically, and will deliver large amounts of lactic acid to the liver. The liver synthesizes glucose from the lactic acid, but at the expense of about 6 times more energy than is obtained from the inefficient metabolism – so that organismically, that tissue becomes 90 times less efficient than its original state. Besides this, an idle destruction of energy molecules (ATP or creatine phosphate) will increase the wastefulness even more.”

“Besides the simple excitotoxic killing of nerve cells, the processes which impair carbon dioxide production set in motion the long degenerative process that ranges from diabetic lacticacidemia to dementia.”

“The balance between what a tissue needs and what it gets will govern the way that tissue functions, in both the short term and the long term. When a cell emits lactic acid and free radicals and the products of lipid peroxidation, it’s reasonable to assume that it isn’t getting everything that it needs, such as oxygen and glucose. With time, the cell will either die or adapt in some way to its deprived conditions.”

“Increasing carbon dioxide lowers the intracellular pH, as well as inhibiting lactic acid formation, and restoring the oxidation of glucose increases CO2. Inhibiting carbonic anhydrase, to allow more CO2 to stay in the cell, contributes to intracellular acidification, and by systemically increasing carbon dioxide this inhibition has a broad range of protective anti-excitatory effects. The drug industry is now looking for chemicals that will specifically inhibit the carbonic anhydrase enzymes that are active in tumors. Existing carbonic anhydrase inhibitors, such as acetazolamide, will inhibit those enzymes, without harming other tissues. Aspirin has some effect as an inhibitor of carbonic anhydrase (Bayram, et al., 2008). Since histamine, serotonin (Vullo, et al., 2007), and estrogen (Barnett, et al., 2008; Garg, 1975) are carbonic anhydrase activators, their antagonists would help to acidify the hypoxic cells. Testosterone (Suzuki, et al., 1996) and progesterone are estrogen antagonists that inhibit carbonic anhydrase.”

“Thyroid is needed to keep the cell in an oxidative, rather than reductive state, and progesterone (which is produced elsewhere only when cells are in a rapidly oxidizing state) activates the processes that remove estrogen from the cell, and inactivates the processes that would form new estrogen in the cell.

Thyroid, and the carbon dioxide it produces, prevent the formation of the toxic lactic acid. When there is enough carbon dioxide in the tissues, the cell is kept in an oxidative state, and the formation of toxic free radicals is suppressed. Carbon dioxide therapy is extremely safe.”

“Glycolysis is very inefficient for producing usable energy compared to the respiratory metabolism of the mitochondria, and when lactate is carried to the liver, its conversion to glucose adds to the energy drain on the organism.”

“These factors that impair respiration tend to shift mitochondrial metabolism away from the oxidation of glucose and the production of carbon dioxide, to the oxidation of fats and the production of lactic acid.”

“The presence of carbon dioxide is an indicator of proper mitochondrial respiratory functioning.”

“The presence of lactic acid, which indicates stress or defective respiration, interferes with energy metabolism in ways that tend to be self-promoting. Harry Rubin’s experiments demonstrated that cells become cancerous before genetic changes appear. The mere presence of lactic acid can make cells more susceptible to the transformation into cancer cells. (Mothersill, et al., 1983.)”

“CO2 does help to reduce lactic acid production, but if there’s a chronic excess of lactic acid it’s most likely from a B vitamin deficiency or low thyroid function, or both. Muscles lose magnesium easily with those metabolic problems, so a diet with some well cooked greens (or just the water they boil in), orange juice, milk, and cheese, with liver and shell fish once a week, could help.”

“The features of the stress metabolism include increases of stress hormones, lactate, ammonia, free fatty acids, and fat synthesis, and a decrease in carbon dioxide. Factors that lower the stress hormones, increase carbon dioxide, and help to lower the circulating free fatty acids, lactate, and ammonia, include vitamin B1 (to increase CO2 and reduce lactate), niacinamide (to reduce free fatty acids), sugar (to reduce cortisol, adrenaline, and free fatty acids), salt (to lower adrenaline), thyroid hormone (to increase CO2). Vitamins D, K, B6 and biotin are also closely involved with carbon dioxide metabolism. Biotin deficiency can cause aerobic glycolysis with increased fat synthesis (Marshall, et al., 1976).”

 

[Koveras]

"A good healthy cell with plenty of oxygen will be around pH 6.8. And if you stress a cell that isn't getting enough carbon dioxide, or stress it in any way - radiation, not enough oxygen, not enough of any of the things that it needs - the cell becomes activated and shifts to the alkaline because it can't make carbon dioxide to acidify itself and it begins producing lactic acid very inefficiently. And the thing about lactic acid is that sugar instead of being oxidized all the way to carbon dioxide comes to the point of pyruvic acid and instead of that being oxidized, the cell reduces the pyruvic acid to lactic acid by taking some of the energy substance that was produced in this metabolism, wasting it to get rid of the electrons so that this NADH, NAD can go back and become reduced again and produce more of the conversion of pyruvic to lactic acid. And in that process, the lactic acid is taking protons out of the cell and is raising the pH of the cell as the conversion of pyruvic acid to lactic acid increases the pH of the cell, just the opposite of what the production of carbon dioxide is doing. So the stressed cell becomes alkaline"

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

I've already read all quotes you, Koveras, showed, but I half-forgot this one:

“Increasing carbon dioxide lowers the intracellular pH, as well as inhibiting lactic acid formation, and restoring the oxidation of glucose increases CO2. Inhibiting carbonic anhydrase, to allow more CO2 to stay in the cell, contributes to intracellular acidification, and by systemically increasing carbon dioxide this inhibition has a broad range of protective anti-excitatory effects."

So, carbon dioxide acidifies the intracellular environment, as I argued above.

But if carbonic anhydrase is not inhibited, then carbon dioxide will not remain within the cell. So, will carbon dioxide acidify the extracellular environment once it leaves the cell, since it is acidic? If so, will CO2, like lactic acid, be toxic to the cells, by permitting free fatty acids to enter them, causing cells to enter in the cancer metabolism?

 

[Koveras]

But if carbonic anhydrase is not inhibited, then carbon dioxide will not remain within the cell. So, will carbon dioxide acidify the extracellular environment once it leaves the cell, since it is acidic? If so, will CO2, like lactic acid, be toxic to the cells, by permitting free fatty acids to enter them, causing cells to enter in the cancer metabolism?

"And as the carbon dioxide is produced, combining with water, it turns into carbonic acid which ionizes. And so you have the acidic carbonic acid leaving the cell as a charged particle. It takes the oppositely charged sodium with it primarily. Sodium and calcium are constantly being drawn out of the cell by the stream of carbonic acid being produced inside the cell. And so the alkaline minerals reach the blood stream in balance with the carbonic acid. Then the carbonic acid leaves the lungs as carbon dioxide, leaving an alkaline trace in the blood. "

 

[jaguar43]

I have some doubts.

Cancer cells, which are alkaline, surround themselves with the acids (using lactic acid) they emit.

Carbon dioxide is produced under the influence of thyroid and sugar oxidation.

Normal cells are acidic and their environment is alkaline. Cancer cells are alkaline and their environment is acidic.

So, if carbon dioxide is found in and out of tissues, then does carbon dioxide acidify the extracellular environment, making cells more prone to absorb fatty acids, leading to the production of the toxic lactic acid?

If so, then how would carbon dioxide, sugar, and thyroid be beneficial, and associated with low stress, low incidence of diabetes and obesity, and high longevity, i.e., health?

I am not sure if normal cells are acidic and their environments alkaline and vice versa for cancer cells. Has Ray Peat said this ?

 

[Koveras]

I am not sure if normal cells are acidic and their environments alkaline and vice versa for cancer cells. Has Ray Peat said this ?

"A good healthy cell with plenty of oxygen will be around pH 6.8"

"...so the pH of the blood is above neutral, about pH of 7.4"

https://raypeatforum.com/community/attachments/alkalinity-vs-acidity-2012-ray-peat-pdf.822/

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

Koveras, thank you so much.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Carbon dioxide is found only in intracellular environments, and only leaves the cell as carbonic acid.

But, how would being adapted to high altitudes work? Would CO2 be present in the bloodstream? Would extracellular environments be filled with carbon dioxide? If so, would CO2 acidify the extracellular environment (since it's acidic), making cells prone to absorb fatty acids, entering glycolisys metabolism (or cancer metabolism)?

[Edit] Or would outside carbon dioxide directly incorporate in the cells?

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

I am not sure if normal cells are acidic and their environments alkaline and vice versa for cancer cells. Has Ray Peat said this ?

"The alkaline cancer cell surrounds itself by the acid that it emits, and this extracellular acidity increases the ability of fatty acids to enter the cell." -- Ray Peat (Cancer: Disorder and Energy)

So cancer cells are alkaline, and their environment or surroundings is acidic; cancer cells are alkaline because they produce glycolysis, and glycolisys is alkalinizing. Normal cells are acidic, and their environment is alkaline; normal cells are acidic because they produce CO2, which is acidic, through mitochondrial energy production. Regarding normal cells' environment, I suppose it is alkaline because they have more sodium and calcium, which I think are alkalinizing (I'll research whether it's true right now).

Yes, sodium and calcium are alkaline.

 

[Koveras]

Koveras, thank you so much.

Correct me if I'm wrong:

Carbon dioxide is found only in intracellular environments, and only leaves the cell as carbonic acid.

But, how would being adapted to high altitudes work? Would CO2 be present in the bloodstream? Would extracellular environments be filled with carbon dioxide? If so, would CO2 acidify the extracellular environment (since it's acidic), making cells prone to absorb fatty acids, entering glycolisys metabolism (or cancer metabolism)?

[Edit] Or would outside carbon dioxide directly incorporate in the cells?

Believe that is the Haldane effect that is largely responsible for the adaptation to altitude.

"To support this proposition Dr. Peat points to the effects of increased thyroid hormone and the effects of high altitude on increasing mitochondria, thyroid acting to increase metabolism and hence increasing carbon dioxide production and high altitude acting via the Haldane effect whereby deoxygenation of the blood increases its capacity for carbon dioxide."

"The Haldane effect is a property of hemoglobin first described by John Scott Haldane. Deoxygenation of the blood increases its ability to carry carbon dioxide; this property is the Haldane effect. Conversely, oxygenated blood has a reduced capacity for carbon dioxide."

"Carbon dioxide can bind to amino groups, creating carbamino compounds. Amino groups are available for binding at the N-terminals and at side-chains of arginine and lysine residues in haemoglobin. This forms carbaminohaemoglobin. Carbaminohaemoglobin is the major contributor to the Haldane effect.[1]"

"In red blood cells, the enzyme carbonic anhydrase catalyzes the conversion of dissolved carbon dioxide to carbonic acid, which rapidly dissociates to bicarbonate and a free proton:
CO2 + H2O → H2CO3 → H+ + HCO3−
By Le Chatelier's principle, anything that stabilizes the proton produced will cause the reaction to shift to the right, thus the enhanced affinity of deoxyhemoglobin for protons enhances synthesis of bicarbonate and accordingly increases capacity of deoxygenated blood for carbon dioxide. The majority of carbon dioxide in the blood is in the form of bicarbonate. Only a very small amount is actually dissolved as carbon dioxide, and the remaining amount of carbon dioxide is bound to hemoglobin."

 

[Koveras]

Note that from a metabolic stand point, if what you posited originally were true, that increased carbon dioxide production acidified the extracellular area/alkalinized the cell, and increased the entry of free fatty acids into the cell - then there would be no difference between fat and carbs and everything would lead to the 'cancer metabolism'.

 

[Mr. God of Cars]

Note that from a metabolic stand point, if what you posited originally were true, that increased carbon dioxide production acidified the extracellular area/alkalinized the cell, and increased the entry of free fatty acids into the cell - then there would be no difference between fat and carbs and everything would lead to the 'cancer metabolism'.

It's because I thought carbon dioxide could also be found in the extracellular environment. I actually didn't want to mean that, if CO2 could be present in the extracellular environment, it could cause the interior of the cell to be alkaline, but anyways I did want to mean that there would be a cancer metabolism.

When I say extracellular environment, I don't necessarily mean blood, but around cells.