4 Natural Serotonin Antagonists

[ddjd]

What do people think of the four natural Serotonin antagonists in this article

Area-1255: 4 Natural OTC Serotonin Antagonists

Tried any of them?

 

[ddjd]

White willow bark is another one

 

[RobertJM]

I've tried Panax quite a bit. Definitely a mania type compound. Feels like cortisol goes sky high. It elevates acetylcholine (another Peat no-no). Taken with coffee, it can feel like you are literally flying. Very good for boners. Very anxiogenic (so not for daily use, in my case).

It's also a 5ht2a agonist ( Identification of antidepressant-like ingredients in ginseng root (Panax ginseng C.A. Meyer) using a menopausal depressive-like state in female mice:... - PubMed - NCBI )

Which is the opposite of what you are looking for?

 

[ddjd]

More here;

Area-1255: Natural Serotonin Receptor Blockers / Antagonists

 

[encerent]

Just use the ***t Peat recommends to antagonize serotonin: sugar, thyroid, cyproheptadine

 

[Frankdee20]

I've tried Panax quite a bit. Definitely a mania type compound. Feels like cortisol goes sky high. It elevates acetylcholine (another Peat no-no). Taken with coffee, it can feel like you are literally flying. Very good for boners. Very anxiogenic (so not for daily use, in my case).

It's also a 5ht2a agonist ( Identification of antidepressant-like ingredients in ginseng root (Panax ginseng C.A. Meyer) using a menopausal depressive-like state in female mice:... - PubMed - NCBI )

Which is the opposite of what you are looking for?

I’m going to have to agree here. Panax is the only one I’ve tried of these 4. So yeah, big deal, it antagonizes 5ht3, but so does Ginger, or chamomile. That’s a nausea, belly effecting receptor, not many psychoactive effects. Ginseng will antagonize GABA though, so paired with caffeine is intensely anxiogenic. I didn’t know it agonizes 5ht2a, that’s bad. I do think Ginseng as an adaptogen, must have helpful effects on the body though. It’s not an awful herb, just think how much raw root fetches these days, lucrative market. Be careful of fakes.

Then there’s Yohimbe, the whole herb, not just isolated alkaloid. Tried it as a kid, too much sends heart rate through the roof, so finding a sweet spot for this is tough. But it really antagonizes a lot of 5ht receptors, a lot. More than any other herb on the planet. However, it also hits adrenergic stuff, and that can effect pulse.

 

[ddjd]

Then there’s Yohimbe, the whole herb, not just isolated alkaloid. Tried it as a kid, too much sends heart rate through the roof, so finding a sweet spot for this is tough. But it really antagonizes a lot of 5ht receptors, a lot. More than any other herb on the planet. However, it also hits adrenergic stuff, and that can effect pulse.

Thanks for this. I might give yohimbine a go

 

[Aleeri]

:

I've tried Panax quite a bit. Definitely a mania type compound. Feels like cortisol goes sky high. It elevates acetylcholine (another Peat no-no). Taken with coffee, it can feel like you are literally flying. Very good for boners. Very anxiogenic (so not for daily use, in my case).

It's also a 5ht2a agonist ( Identification of antidepressant-like ingredients in ginseng root (Panax ginseng C.A. Meyer) using a menopausal depressive-like state in female mice:... - PubMed - NCBI )

Which is the opposite of what you are looking for?

Dr. Peat has spoken favorably about ginseng on his monthly KMUD interviews.

I am not sure what ginseng you have tried but I have used about every kind there is along with the most expensive Korean black ginseng products (steamed 9+ times) which are now the cutting edge. (the black one is also lower in RB1 by the way which is the one implicated in the 5-HT2A study you mentioned: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...red-and-black-ginseng-extracts_fig5_290190150 )

I often take it before bed and it improves my sleep as clearly seen on my sleep stats (Fitbit). When I have anxiety, stress or lack of sleep it totally normalizes me as well.

It does not increase cortisol, that would be pretty contradictory to its function as an adaptogen. But it is likely that ginsenosides can act as a cortisol mimetic when needed to some degree. I would think it does so without any of the negatives. I have noticed a much much higher resistance to stress when using ginseng.

I think the reason it can become too much which caffeine is because they work in a similar way, you are basically overdosing yourself. Some people can handle it but some can't. Red Ginseng Coffee is very popular in Korea, you can even buy it at most coffee shops, if it had negative effects on everyone like that then we would not see this. I combined it with tea often without problems, the dosage is key. As we know, Caffeine increases the amounts of all protective hormones and this is probably responsible for its stimulatory effect: Caffeine Increases Pregnenolone & Progesterone In The Brain


Here is what Ray has said about Ginseng in his paper on Adaptogens:

"Such an "anti-catabolic" effect must be especially important during the years of growth, so the youth-associated steroids (prenenolone, progesterone, DHEA) probably serve in this way, while being available for conversion into the more specific hormones. Plant steroids such as those in ginseng, having some structural similarity to the normal protective hormones, would serve as adaptogens by making up for a reduced amount of those normal youth-associated substances."

"The adaptogens of Eleutherococcus and ginseng are already in wide use. It is assumed that their steroidal components support the functions of our own protective steroids. These functions (normally adequately sustained by our endogenous steroids) are probably catatoxic, anticatabolic, anti-inflammatory, and osmoregulatory".

https://www.toxinless.com/ray-peat-the-generality-of-adaptogens.pdf


Ray suggests that ginsengs steroidal components work as mimetics for our protective hormones pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA.

Yes, ginseng increase acetylcholine and antagonizes GABA A ( Korean Red Ginseng Extract Activates Non-NMDA Glutamate and GABAA Receptors on the Substantia Gelatinosa Neurons of the Trigeminal Subnucleus Caudalis in Mice ), but so does Pregnenolone as well.

Pregnenolone sulfate block of GABAA receptors: mechanism and involvement of a residue in the M2 region of the α subunit
Pregnenolone sulfate block of GABAA receptors: mechanism and involvement of a residue in the M2 region of the α subunit

Pregnenolone sulfate increases hippocampal acetylcholine release and spatial recognition.
Pregnenolone sulfate increases hippocampal acetylcholine release and spatial recognition. - PubMed - NCBI

The neurosteroid pregnenolone sulfate increases cortical acetylcholine release: a microdialysis study in freely moving rats.
The neurosteroid pregnenolone sulfate increases cortical acetylcholine release: a microdialysis study in freely moving rats. - PubMed - NCBI


In fact, ginseng to me looks like a very nice compound coming from a Peat perspective in addition to the above:

COX-1 & 2 (similar to Aspirin, safe to combine with low dose aspirin as well: https://www.sgh.com.sg/about-us/newsroom/News-Articles-Reports/Documents/Year 2016/Singapore Health/01 Jan-Feb 2016/10 NEWS_Turmeric V3_ML.pdf):

Korean Red Ginseng water extract inhibits COX-2 expression by suppressing p38 in acrolein-treated human endothelial cells
https://www.researchgate.net/public...8_in_acrolein-treated_human_endothelial_cells

Total Saponin from Korean Red Ginseng Inhibits Thromboxane A2 Production Associated Microsomal Enzyme Activity in Platelets
https://www.researchgate.net/public...iated_Microsomal_Enzyme_Activity_in_Platelets

Also, dopamine:

Korean Red Ginseng attenuates anxiety-like behavior during ethanol withdrawal in rats
Korean Red Ginseng attenuates anxiety-like behavior during ethanol withdrawal in rats


There is plenty more online as well: https://www.selfhacked.com/blog/ginseng/

 

[Douglas Ek]

:

Dr. Peat has spoken favorably about ginseng on his monthly KMUD interviews.

I am not sure what ginseng you have tried but I have used about every kind there is along with the most expensive Korean black ginseng products (steamed 9+ times) which are now the cutting edge. (the black one is also lower in RB1 by the way which is the one implicated in the 5-HT2A study you mentioned: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...red-and-black-ginseng-extracts_fig5_290190150 )

I often take it before bed and it improves my sleep as clearly seen on my sleep stats (Fitbit). When I have anxiety, stress or lack of sleep it totally normalizes me as well.

It does not increase cortisol, that would be pretty contradictory to its function as an adaptogen. But it is likely that ginsenosides can act as a cortisol mimetic when needed to some degree. I would think it does so without any of the negatives. I have noticed a much much higher resistance to stress when using ginseng.

I think the reason it can become too much which caffeine is because they work in a similar way, you are basically overdosing yourself. Some people can handle it but some can't. Red Ginseng Coffee is very popular in Korea, you can even buy it at most coffee shops, if it had negative effects on everyone like that then we would not see this. I combined it with tea often without problems, the dosage is key. As we know, Caffeine increases the amounts of all protective hormones and this is probably responsible for its stimulatory effect: Caffeine Increases Pregnenolone & Progesterone In The Brain


Here is what Ray has said about Ginseng in his paper on Adaptogens:

"Such an "anti-catabolic" effect must be especially important during the years of growth, so the youth-associated steroids (prenenolone, progesterone, DHEA) probably serve in this way, while being available for conversion into the more specific hormones. Plant steroids such as those in ginseng, having some structural similarity to the normal protective hormones, would serve as adaptogens by making up for a reduced amount of those normal youth-associated substances."

"The adaptogens of Eleutherococcus and ginseng are already in wide use. It is assumed that their steroidal components support the functions of our own protective steroids. These functions (normally adequately sustained by our endogenous steroids) are probably catatoxic, anticatabolic, anti-inflammatory, and osmoregulatory".

https://www.toxinless.com/ray-peat-the-generality-of-adaptogens.pdf


Ray suggests that ginsengs steroidal components work as mimetics for our protective hormones pregnenolone, progesterone and DHEA.

Yes, ginseng increase acetylcholine and antagonizes GABA A ( Korean Red Ginseng Extract Activates Non-NMDA Glutamate and GABAA Receptors on the Substantia Gelatinosa Neurons of the Trigeminal Subnucleus Caudalis in Mice ), but so does Pregnenolone as well.

Pregnenolone sulfate block of GABAA receptors: mechanism and involvement of a residue in the M2 region of the α subunit
Pregnenolone sulfate block of GABAA receptors: mechanism and involvement of a residue in the M2 region of the α subunit

Pregnenolone sulfate increases hippocampal acetylcholine release and spatial recognition.
Pregnenolone sulfate increases hippocampal acetylcholine release and spatial recognition. - PubMed - NCBI

The neurosteroid pregnenolone sulfate increases cortical acetylcholine release: a microdialysis study in freely moving rats.
The neurosteroid pregnenolone sulfate increases cortical acetylcholine release: a microdialysis study in freely moving rats. - PubMed - NCBI


In fact, ginseng to me looks like a very nice compound coming from a Peat perspective in addition to the above:

COX-1 & 2 (similar to Aspirin, safe to combine with low dose aspirin as well: https://www.sgh.com.sg/about-us/newsroom/News-Articles-Reports/Documents/Year 2016/Singapore Health/01 Jan-Feb 2016/10 NEWS_Turmeric V3_ML.pdf):

Korean Red Ginseng water extract inhibits COX-2 expression by suppressing p38 in acrolein-treated human endothelial cells
https://www.researchgate.net/public...8_in_acrolein-treated_human_endothelial_cells

Total Saponin from Korean Red Ginseng Inhibits Thromboxane A2 Production Associated Microsomal Enzyme Activity in Platelets
https://www.researchgate.net/public...iated_Microsomal_Enzyme_Activity_in_Platelets

Also, dopamine:

Korean Red Ginseng attenuates anxiety-like behavior during ethanol withdrawal in rats
Korean Red Ginseng attenuates anxiety-like behavior during ethanol withdrawal in rats


There is plenty more online as well: 15 Health Benefits of Ginseng - Selfhacked

Boom like a boss

 

[Aleeri]

Boom like a boss

Haha cheers, happy someone read that

 

[Douglas Ek]

Haha cheers, happy someone read that

No worries bro nice find! What ginseng would you recommend? Any of the different types are the same or? And should you go for extracts etc? U got any brand u buy?

 

[Aleeri]

No worries bro nice find! What ginseng would you recommend? Any of the different types are the same or? And should you go for extracts etc? U got any brand u buy?

I've been using this one https://ginseng-premium.com/en/korean-black-ginseng/ - but I get it off eBay shipped from Korea (cheaper).

The only problem with it is that if you like to indulge in caffeine or nicotine a bit too much then it's not worthwhile, especially nicotine since it counteracts nicotine's effects completely (the strong dopamine boost). It's interesting and clearly can balance excess catecholamines.

 

[Frankdee20]

Blocking acetylcholinesterase isn’t good though

 

[Douglas Ek]

Blocking acetylcholinesterase isn’t good though

Like mentioned above Pregnenolone also increase acetylcholine? Ray Peat seems to like ginseng. And the fact that it inhibits COX and acts as a replacement for neurosteroids. Also boosts dopamine and probably increase testosterone. Theres more studies it improves sperm production which is a sign of good testicular function and that also speaks for itself that it would boost testosterone.

 

[Anders86]

White willow bark is another one

White willow bark is basically aspirin.

 

[Frankdee20]

Like mentioned above Pregnenolone also increase acetylcholine? Ray Peat seems to like ginseng. And the fact that it inhibits COX and acts as a replacement for neurosteroids. Also boosts dopamine and probably increase testosterone. Theres more studies it improves sperm production which is a sign of good testicular function and that also speaks for itself that it would boost testosterone.

Yes, overall I suppose the other properties outshine acetylcholinesterase inhibition.