Labs/A Mysterious Problem

[Kyle Bigman]

Hi all, I was wondering if you could help me, because no doctors have so far been successful.

My abnormal labs are 1) persistently elevated bilirubin – pretty much slightly elevated in every single test I take, 2) low ceruloplasmin (0.19 g/L/), normal: 0.20-0.50 g/ L); and 3) a positive ANA test (1:80, so borderline), which read as fine densely speckled pattern.

My GP diagnosed me with Gilbert's syndrome because of the bilirubin elevations.

My symptoms: Since joining the Peat forum I have been trying to discover what is causing a host of mysterious symptoms. I have a lot of autoimmune type symptoms, from acne, joint pain, and mouth ulcers when stressed, but I also have had other symptoms like extreme sensitivity to cold, fatigue and depression, and a recurring pain and bloatedness in my upper right abdominal quadrant area that typically worsens upon stress. I also have yellowish skin, eczema, and dandruff and hair loss. I experienced some bad twitching issues upon stress last year, along with weird symptoms that seemed neurological in nature. I was taking finasteride so I blamed that.

At first I thought this was due to a liver/gallbladder issue but no doctor has found anything wrong with those organs yet. Then, I thought it was autoimmune of some kind, or perhaps related to vitamin A toxicity. Now, I am wondering whether I have some kind of copper metabolism malfunction. But basically I think all of this is a liver problem. Just not sure how to go about addressing it.

Thanks for the help and all the advice you have given me through the forum, it is much appreciated.

 

[Cirion]

You mention you suspect VA toxicity, have you kept up with the big VA toxicity thread here? A lot of your symptoms sound like may be improved by following Grant's protocol, it's worth a shot at least.

 

[Kyle Bigman]

I have read through that and tried a low-vitamin A diet and it helped, but now I am still experiencing problems. I am trying to act based on the labs, but so far have not been able to understand the connection between low Ceruloplasmin and vitamin A (one study suggested that vitamin-a deficiency results in increased ceruloplasmin, so maybe it is possible that I have vitamin a toxicity still).

 

[Cirion]

Gotcha.

There is a lot of inter-dependencies for sure.

B2, Iron, Sunlight, VA, VD, VE, VK, Ceruloplasmin... I think they're all connected based upon what some guys were saying there. How much sunlight do you get? How long do you sit in front of blue light? How much B2 do you get? Just some questions. I don't have all the answers of course though.

 

[Kyle Bigman]

Yeah that is the connection I am confused about. I probably don't get a lot of sunlight and am exposed to lots of blue light. I have been supplementing with B vitamins recently more.

Copper and Vitamin A have a tendency to produce similar symptoms both in excess and in deficiency. So it is is really tricky to determine where to begin addressing the issue. I recently started supplementing zinc as an experiment to see if that improves my symptoms (assuming I was copper-toxic), but we'll see where this leads.

 

[Orion]

I also have yellowish skin, eczema, and dandruff and hair loss.

Have you taken accutane in the past, or used RetinA on your skin? What was your low A diet staples and for how long? Getting VA down can take a long time even on a strict zero VA diet. Water fasting it quick way to get A out too.

I suspect increased vitamin A may be hampering with the UDP enzyme, which is involved in Gilberts and retinoid metabolism.

 

[Kyle Bigman]

Very little retinA on skin. Maybe just a tiny bit from some skin cream. no accutane. I have been eating basically meat, rice, with vegetables. I never really supplemented with Vitamin A, only ate natural foods, so it was always difficult to understand how I would have even become toxic in it. That is why I began to suspect some kind of copper/vitamin A metabolic problem, maybe a genetic defect.

 

[meatbag]

do eat carrot salad/mushrooms regularly?

 

[Kyle Bigman]

yes, both regularly. but I am stopping the mushroom consumption due to its copper content.

 

[Cirion]

I prefer maple syrup for B2 personally. I don't like the taste of mushrooms, at least the amount required to get the B2 I need.

 

[Orion]

Very little retinA on skin. Maybe just a tiny bit from some skin cream. no accutane. I have been eating basically meat, rice, with vegetables. I never really supplemented with Vitamin A, only ate natural foods, so it was always difficult to understand how I would have even become toxic in it. That is why I began to suspect some kind of copper/vitamin A metabolic problem, maybe a genetic defect.

Age is a big factor, year after year it builds up. Vitamin A is in about 99.99% of food, even beef(very small amounts), rice is part of the .01% :)

Sweet potato for example:
Vitamin A 15740.00IU 315%RDA
Vitamin A, RAE 787.00 mcg
Carotene, alpha 0.00 mcg
Carotene, beta 9444.00 mcg
Cryptoxanthin, beta 0.00 mcg
Lutein + zeaxanthin 0.00 mcg
Lycopene 0.00 mcg

 

[Douglas Ek]

Hi all, I was wondering if you could help me, because no doctors have so far been successful.

My abnormal labs are 1) persistently elevated bilirubin – pretty much slightly elevated in every single test I take, 2) low ceruloplasmin (0.19 g/L/), normal: 0.20-0.50 g/ L); and 3) a positive ANA test (1:80, so borderline), which read as fine densely speckled pattern.

My GP diagnosed me with Gilbert's syndrome because of the bilirubin elevations.

My symptoms: Since joining the Peat forum I have been trying to discover what is causing a host of mysterious symptoms. I have a lot of autoimmune type symptoms, from acne, joint pain, and mouth ulcers when stressed, but I also have had other symptoms like extreme sensitivity to cold, fatigue and depression, and a recurring pain and bloatedness in my upper right abdominal quadrant area that typically worsens upon stress. I also have yellowish skin, eczema, and dandruff and hair loss. I experienced some bad twitching issues upon stress last year, along with weird symptoms that seemed neurological in nature. I was taking finasteride so I blamed that.

At first I thought this was due to a liver/gallbladder issue but no doctor has found anything wrong with those organs yet. Then, I thought it was autoimmune of some kind, or perhaps related to vitamin A toxicity. Now, I am wondering whether I have some kind of copper metabolism malfunction. But basically I think all of this is a liver problem. Just not sure how to go about addressing it.

Thanks for the help and all the advice you have given me through the forum, it is much appreciated.

Actually vitamin A would help increase ceruloplasmin. The liver makes ceruloplasmin and its synthesis is dependent on retinol. Could also be copper. Copper would cause iron dysregulation. Symptoms of low copper are joint pain, fatigue and cold hands and feet (low thyroid). Would investigate that further. Ceruloplasmin is very important.

 

[Gone Peating]

Have you taken accutane in the past, or used RetinA on your skin? What was your low A diet staples and for how long? Getting VA down can take a long time even on a strict zero VA diet. Water fasting it quick way to get A out too.

I suspect increased vitamin A may be hampering with the UDP enzyme, which is involved in Gilberts and retinoid metabolism.

What problems does Accutane cause people typically? Inability to handle Vitamin A properly?

 

[Orion]

What problems does Accutane cause people typically? Inability to handle Vitamin A properly?

Accutane is active vitamin A retinoic acid, and given in big doses during prescription for acne or used in chemotherapy. So it gives all the symptoms of being on chemo and hypervitaminosis, and since the body stores it in liver and fat the symptoms are very long lasting.

Too much VA in the diet causing accumulation over the years is like being on chemo or accutane. The inability to handle vitamin A is likely due to not be able to excrete the excess VA quickly enough, eventually a tipping point is hit, and then one or many of; cancer, gilberts, acne, eczema, asthma, CFS, hypothyroid, UC/IBS/Crohns, Parkinson, Alzheimer, heart disease, etc... gets started up, depends on your body chemistry/

Mega thread here: Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

 

[Kyle Bigman]

Is there any reason why I would have low Ceruloplasmin and high free serum copper (i.e. unbound toxic copper) that is not a Wilson's disease scenario? Is it possible that vitamin A has caused these imbalances? My bilirubin was slightly elevated but it was direct, conjugated version that is elevated. Typically in the past I have had un-conjugated raised bilirubin levels, which is why they diagnosed me with Gilberts.

 

[Douglas Ek]

Is there any reason why I would have low Ceruloplasmin and high free serum copper (i.e. unbound toxic copper) that is not a Wilson's disease scenario? Is it possible that vitamin A has caused these imbalances? My bilirubin was slightly elevated but it was direct, conjugated version that is elevated. Typically in the past I have had un-conjugated raised bilirubin levels, which is why they diagnosed me with Gilberts.

Vitamin A is needed for high ceruloplasmin so I think opposite. High free copper is caused by a lack of retinol.

 

[Gone Peating]

Accutane is active vitamin A retinoic acid, and given in big doses during prescription for acne or used in chemotherapy. So it gives all the symptoms of being on chemo and hypervitaminosis, and since the body stores it in liver and fat the symptoms are very long lasting.

Too much VA in the diet causing accumulation over the years is like being on chemo or accutane. The inability to handle vitamin A is likely due to not be able to excrete the excess VA quickly enough, eventually a tipping point is hit, and then one or many of; cancer, gilberts, acne, eczema, asthma, CFS, hypothyroid, UC/IBS/Crohns, Parkinson, Alzheimer, heart disease, etc... gets started up, depends on your body chemistry/

Mega thread here: Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

Besides avoiding Vitamin A, what should someone who used to take Accutane or high dose vitamin A do? I took accutane when i was 16 for about 4 months. During the time my joints ached when i worked out and my libido decreased

 

[Douglas Ek]

Besides avoiding Vitamin A, what should someone who used to take Accutane or high dose vitamin A do? I took accutane when i was 16 for about 4 months. During the time my joints ached when i worked out and my libido decreased

Have you tested your vitamin D?

 

[Gone Peating]

Have you tested your vitamin D?

It was 40

 

[Orion]

Besides avoiding Vitamin A, what should someone who used to take Accutane or high dose vitamin A do? I took accutane when i was 16 for about 4 months. During the time my joints ached when i worked out and my libido decreased

I took accutane for 2 rounds 10yrs apart, right now eating a very low to zero vitamin A diet is helping immensely. I am close to 5 months VA free, but hoping to make a real judgement at 1 year whether I fully endorse this. Going low A is very simple, and easy to test, and doesn't appear to be detrimental, lots of anecdotal reports are starting to come around, its a relatively new theory. What are your post accutane symptoms?