High Prolactin, High Trigs, High GPT, High GGT

moriwatzi

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Jan 22, 2013
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Little background: Male, mid 30ies. Almost a year ago I started having severe problems, @haidut suggested zinc/copper imbalances among the things I should investigate and he was right on the money. The main problem with getting all the unbound copper out was finding the right speed of elimination. Anything that would increase my metabolism too much led to major agitation, anxiety, and other mental problems. In the beginning even little sips of coffee, which I drank in large amounts before, made me very, very uneasy.

Now things are much better, but still not perfect. I have symptoms of high estrogen which the labs confirmed with prolactin in the highest (normal) range. That surprised me because I was using 11-KETO-DHT and Androsterone (not at the same time), but stopped it 5 days before labs. Maybe this is rebound?

I should fix my elevated liver enzymes but 300mg of caffeine are still too much in terms of copper mobilisation. Will less help too over longer period? Have been taking K2 but not regularily. Testo is low because I have been using progesterone to support my weak kidneys in the last few weeks. Could this lead to high prolactin as well?

Any suggestions and observations highly appreciated!

Thanks!!!

VARIOUS HORMONES

LH 2,85 U/L 1.0 - 8.0
Prolactin 266,9 mIU/L 56.0 - 278.4
SHBG 17,40 nmol/L 13.3 - 89.5
DHEAS 6,33 μmol/L 2.88 - 12.59
ACTH 3,07 pmol/L 1.6 - 13.9
PTH 19,8 pg/ml 12 - 88
Cortisol 377.73 nmol/l 140-700
Total Testosteron 2.81 ng/ml 2 - 8

THYROID
TSH 4,850 mIU/L 0.400 - 4.000 +
fT4 8,71 pmol/L 7.75 - 15.21
fT3 6,02 pmol/L 3.8 - 6 +

IRON
Iron 26,7 μmol/L 12.5 - 32.2
Transferrin 2,7 g/L 1.7 - 3.4
Transferrin saturation 39 % 16 - 45
Total iron binding capacity 68,0 μmol/L 42.8 - 85.6
Ferritin 110,4 μg/L 20 - 300

LIVER, KIDNEY, LIPIDS, MINERALS
GOT 44 U/L 0 - 50
GPT 86 U/L 0 - 50 +
GGT 94 U/L 0 - 55 +
Alkaline phosphatase 81 U/L 30 - 120
Butyrylcholinesterase 11835 U/L 3930 - 10800 +
Kreatinin 95,0 μmol/L 53.0 - 100.0
eGFR >60 ml/min/1,73m2 60 -
Urea 384 μmol/L 208 - 428
Natrium 140 mmol/L 135 - 145
Kalium 3,9 mmol/L 3.2 - 5.1
Calcium 2,48 mmol/L 2.2 - 2.65
Magnesium 0,95 mmol/L 0.73 - 1.06
Phosphate 1,12 mmol/L 0.81 - 1.45
Albumin 44,9 g/L 35 - 52
Cholesterol 7,30 mmol/L 0.00 - 5.20 +
Triglycerides 5,12 mmol/L 0.00 - 1.70 +
HDL 1,41 mmol/L 1.03 -
LDH 368 U/L 240 - 480

CRP <5,00 mg/L 0.00 - 5.00
Anti-streptolysin O <200 U/ml 0 - 200
 

haidut

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Little background: Male, mid 30ies. Almost a year ago I started having severe problems, @haidut suggested zinc/copper imbalances among the things I should investigate and he was right on the money. The main problem with getting all the unbound copper out was finding the right speed of elimination. Anything that would increase my metabolism too much led to major agitation, anxiety, and other mental problems. In the beginning even little sips of coffee, which I drank in large amounts before, made me very, very uneasy.

Now things are much better, but still not perfect. I have symptoms of high estrogen which the labs confirmed with prolactin in the highest (normal) range. That surprised me because I was using 11-KETO-DHT and Androsterone (not at the same time), but stopped it 5 days before labs. Maybe this is rebound?

I should fix my elevated liver enzymes but 300mg of caffeine are still too much in terms of copper mobilisation. Will less help too over longer period? Have been taking K2 but not regularily. Testo is low because I have been using progesterone to support my weak kidneys in the last few weeks. Could this lead to high prolactin as well?

Any suggestions and observations highly appreciated!

Thanks!!!

VARIOUS HORMONES

LH 2,85 U/L 1.0 - 8.0
Prolactin 266,9 mIU/L 56.0 - 278.4
SHBG 17,40 nmol/L 13.3 - 89.5
DHEAS 6,33 μmol/L 2.88 - 12.59
ACTH 3,07 pmol/L 1.6 - 13.9
PTH 19,8 pg/ml 12 - 88
Cortisol 377.73 nmol/l 140-700
Total Testosteron 2.81 ng/ml 2 - 8

THYROID
TSH 4,850 mIU/L 0.400 - 4.000 +
fT4 8,71 pmol/L 7.75 - 15.21
fT3 6,02 pmol/L 3.8 - 6 +

IRON
Iron 26,7 μmol/L 12.5 - 32.2
Transferrin 2,7 g/L 1.7 - 3.4
Transferrin saturation 39 % 16 - 45
Total iron binding capacity 68,0 μmol/L 42.8 - 85.6
Ferritin 110,4 μg/L 20 - 300

LIVER, KIDNEY, LIPIDS, MINERALS
GOT 44 U/L 0 - 50
GPT 86 U/L 0 - 50 +
GGT 94 U/L 0 - 55 +
Alkaline phosphatase 81 U/L 30 - 120
Butyrylcholinesterase 11835 U/L 3930 - 10800 +
Kreatinin 95,0 μmol/L 53.0 - 100.0
eGFR >60 ml/min/1,73m2 60 -
Urea 384 μmol/L 208 - 428
Natrium 140 mmol/L 135 - 145
Kalium 3,9 mmol/L 3.2 - 5.1
Calcium 2,48 mmol/L 2.2 - 2.65
Magnesium 0,95 mmol/L 0.73 - 1.06
Phosphate 1,12 mmol/L 0.81 - 1.45
Albumin 44,9 g/L 35 - 52
Cholesterol 7,30 mmol/L 0.00 - 5.20 +
Triglycerides 5,12 mmol/L 0.00 - 1.70 +
HDL 1,41 mmol/L 1.03 -
LDH 368 U/L 240 - 480

CRP <5,00 mg/L 0.00 - 5.00
Anti-streptolysin O <200 U/ml 0 - 200

Poor liver function leads to poor elimination of estrogen and prolactin. So, I would focus on fixing liver and thyroid first as TSH is also high. I think the best course would be to ask the doctor for some thyroid supplement and bring TSH below the 1,000 range. This should also help with liver function. Some of the non-stimulant supplements that help liver a lot are taurine, glycine, aspirin, thiamine, niacinamide, etc. Probably the easiest thing to do would be to continue on the daily vitamin K and make sure you eat 10g of gelatin with each meal. When I go back to Europe on vacation I buy gelatin in small packets of 10g each and I think they are available in every European country. After TSH goes down, liver function should improve and hormones should normalize. Also, getting enough vitamin B1 and B2 is very important to allow the liver to eliminate estrogen (and probably prolactin) properly.
 

Orion

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@haidut suggested zinc/copper imbalances among the things I should investigate and he was right on the money. The main problem with getting all the unbound copper out was finding the right speed of elimination.

How does one fix the zinc/copper ratio? Does healthy liver function take care of this, or labs needed to figure out a supplement approach?
 

haidut

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How does one fix the zinc/copper ratio? Does healthy liver function take care of this, or labs needed to figure out a supplement approach?

Usually a zinc/copper/iron imbalance is due to either dietary issues or liver not producing one of the carrier proteins needed to carry the metals into the cell and make them bioavailable. Poor liver function can often result in low ferritin, transferrin, ceruloplasmnin, etc. And since liver function depends on thyroid, the link between mineral imbalances and metabolism becomes quite clear.
 
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moriwatzi

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Messages
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Thank you so much @haidut !

I will concentrate on getting liver back on track. I actually managed to get 250mg caffeine today when I added 1,5 gram taurine, 100 mg niacinamide and 500mg inosine.

Would bromocriptine speed up recovery from high prolactin issues or just burden liver more? And can I keep taking a few drops of KETO-DHT or Androsterone?

Unfortunately can't go higher with thyroid than 2 grains I'm currently taking. More than that makes me uncomfortable. Even tried 2 to 3 mcgs T3 every hour, which worked the first day, but made me crash on second.

@Orion Following supplements helped me a lot with copper issues: Taurine, L-Lysine, Niacin (which seems to be a copper antagonist), Zinc, NAC, Inosine.
 

SneezeStar

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Zinc lowers prolactin. And it seems like there might be too much copper? Research seems to demonstrate they antagonize each other. Just looked up high prolactin causes low testosterone, which explains that testosterone reading. What were your symptoms so i can learn from this?
 
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moriwatzi

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====UPDATE WITH NEW LABS:

Good part: Due to @haidut suggestions and idealabs products my total testosterone went from almost deficiency of 2.81 to supra-reference-range of 8.3 (2-8 ng/ml).

To bring my liver enzymes down, for almost 7 months I have been taking at least 400mg caffeine a day, few grams of Taurine, and at least 15mg of Vitamin K orally. Unfortunately that did not seem to have done much. GOT, GPT and GGT all stayed more or less the same. Only bilirubin is really nicely(?) low now.

GOT 44 / 44 (reference 0 - 50 U/L)
GPT 86 / 81 (reference 0 - 50 U/L) +
GGT 94 / 120 (reference 0 - 55) +
Alkaline phosphatase 81 / 78 (reference 30 - 120 U/L)
Bilirubin total 10,8 / 6,7 (reference 5-21)

Only explanations I can think of: I have been starting lifting again 3 times a week again and also took some cyproheptadine lately. Glycine gives me weird reaction and is heavy on my kidneys. So I will try 1 aspirin a day and some milk thistle. Any other ideas? @haidut ? I suspect there is a lot of copper stored in my liver still from being copper toxic, which took 1 1/2 years to stop giving me symptoms. When I take things like Q10 or B1 or molybdenum, I still get a rash right where my liver sits.

Does anybody know how to treat high Butyrylcholinesterase / pseudocholinesterase? Or what it indicates. The reference range of my lab is up to 10800 U/L and I have consistently over 12000 U/L, and slowly rising, which worries me a bit...

Thanks a lot!
 

TripleOG

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Messages
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====UPDATE WITH NEW LABS:

Good part: Due to @haidut suggestions and idealabs products my total testosterone went from almost deficiency of 2.81 to supra-reference-range of 8.3 (2-8 ng/ml).

Which products?

And were you able to retest prolactin?

Interesting your liver enzymes didn't budge. How do you tolerate caffeine nowadays? While haidut mentioned he used the 400mg caffeine + 15mg k2 protocol for his own liver experiment, he also mentioned titrating up and gauging the effects based off caffeine tolerance and the time it takes between meals to produce a stress reaction. Did you ever increased the caffeine amount?

I was taking both caffeine and vitamin K2. That was more than a year ago, and I was taking 400mg caffeine and 15mg - 30mg K2 (MK-4). Within a week I was able to pound 1,000mg+ daily and that "tolerance" never disappeared afterwards. Within 2 weeks I was able to skip meals without getting stress reaction symptoms, which means glycogen storage improved a lot. I am assuming the "tolerance" to caffeine the studies talk about is simply improved liver function and ability to metabolize caffeine quickly.

Hi Haidut, how long did you keep up the 1,000mg of caffeine daily? If you were advising a liver cleanse protocol now, how high a dose of caffeine would you recommend and for how long?
The animal studies showed reversal of NAFLD in 3 weeks, and used a relatively low dose (human dose of about 200mg). For liver fibrosis it will probably have to be longer - maybe 8-10 weeks and much higher doses (studies used 1g+ daily). I still take the high dose caffeine but more for its dopaminergic qualities and not every day.
 
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moriwatzi

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Which products?

Mainly Pansterone and Kuinone. As needed basis Androsterone, 11-Keto-DHT. Apart from that Vitamin A around 30 to 60K iU, Vitamin D around 10K.

And were you able to retest prolactin?

Yes, it went from 266,9 mIU/L down to 193 mIU/L.

Did you ever increased the caffeine amount?

If I go over 600mg I get very stiff legs next day, almost like robocop, probably because of lactic acid. But I cannot take B1 as it gives me intense rashes, probably by mobilizing copper. I tried different "pure" brands. Didnt do cinnamon powder regularily as it is very inconvenient. But maybe I can find one in caps.
 

meatbag

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Messages
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====UPDATE WITH NEW LABS:

Good part: Due to @haidut suggestions and idealabs products my total testosterone went from almost deficiency of 2.81 to supra-reference-range of 8.3 (2-8 ng/ml).

To bring my liver enzymes down, for almost 7 months I have been taking at least 400mg caffeine a day, few grams of Taurine, and at least 15mg of Vitamin K orally. Unfortunately that did not seem to have done much. GOT, GPT and GGT all stayed more or less the same. Only bilirubin is really nicely(?) low now.

GOT 44 / 44 (reference 0 - 50 U/L)
GPT 86 / 81 (reference 0 - 50 U/L) +
GGT 94 / 120 (reference 0 - 55) +
Alkaline phosphatase 81 / 78 (reference 30 - 120 U/L)
Bilirubin total 10,8 / 6,7 (reference 5-21)

Only explanations I can think of: I have been starting lifting again 3 times a week again and also took some cyproheptadine lately. Glycine gives me weird reaction and is heavy on my kidneys. So I will try 1 aspirin a day and some milk thistle. Any other ideas? @haidut ? I suspect there is a lot of copper stored in my liver still from being copper toxic, which took 1 1/2 years to stop giving me symptoms. When I take things like Q10 or B1 or molybdenum, I still get a rash right where my liver sits.

Does anybody know how to treat high Butyrylcholinesterase / pseudocholinesterase? Or what it indicates. The reference range of my lab is up to 10800 U/L and I have consistently over 12000 U/L, and slowly rising, which worries me a bit...

Thanks a lot!

Hey man, a couple years back I tested for high liver enzymes, turns out it was just due to weight lifting. Haidut's also mentioned this;

"However, elevated liver enzymes are not always indicative of liver damage. I think Hoffer said that as long they stay below 2 times the upper limit then it is indication of a well working liver. After all, the AST and ALT enzymes are needed to process NADH back to NAD. So, I guess having those enzymes elevated is more of an indication of being in a reduced state, which is also not good but certainly not a proof of liver damage as most doctors treat those lab values."
-"Only take pharmaceutical meds for a short amount of time"

Also the with the GGT, it doesn't seem to point to a very specific thing. I found this;

"Drugs that may cause an elevated GGT level include phenytoin, carbamazepine, and barbiturates such as phenobarbital. Use of many other prescription and non-prescription drugs, including nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs), lipid-lowering drugs, antibiotics, histamine receptor blockers (used to treat excess stomach acid production), antifungal agents, antidepressants, and hormones such as testosterone, can increase GGT levels. Clofibrate and oral contraceptives can decrease GGT levels."

With all the supps you're taking and your weight lifting, its kinda hard to say if the slight elevation is really anything to be worried about.

Also the BCHE doesn;t seem concerning unless its really low or very high (possible organophosphate poisoning and stuff)

"It (BCHE) has lower affinity for acetylcholine and is not inhibited by high concentrations of acetylcholine [1]. BChE half-life is about 12 days [2, 3], and its normal value ranges between 5,900 and 13,200 IU/L. An increased activity of this enzyme has been reported in obesity, diabetes, uremia, hyperthyroidism, and in hyperlipidemic subjects [46]." --
Butyrylcholinesterase as a prognostic marker: a review of the literature

Take what I'm saying with a grain of salt though, maybe less than that, more like 1/4 a grain as i'm just a student; but from what you posted it seems like the taurine and k2 are working out for you (increased total T).

Also did you get albumin and trigs retested too? Also curious how your TSH, cholesterol, prolactin and other stuff (hormones and blood chems) responded in accordance with the increase in test.
 
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moriwatzi

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Hey @Meatbag thanks a lot for your helpful information! I was suspecting the lifting too... Question now is can you even have "normal" liver markers while lifting, bro? :cigar: I have slightly elevated numbers for as long as I can remember. Even before lifting. But then a lot of things changed so really hard to say. I can go a lot longer without eating than before I went on this liver protocol, that's for sure.

Also the BCHE doesn;t seem concerning unless its really low or very high (possible organophosphate poisoning and stuff)

This is very good to hear. I'm not obese but do have several kilo of fat to lose, so maybe even this explains the high reading.

Also did you get albumin and trigs retested too? Also curious how your TSH, cholesterol, prolactin and other stuff (hormones and blood chems) responded in accordance with the increase in test.

I do.

October 2016 February 2017 July 2017 Reference

Albumin 44,9 g/l -- 41,5 35- 52
Cholesterol 7,30 mmol/l 6,00 7,50 0 - 5.20
Trigs 5,12 mmol/l 2,26 6,22 0 - 1.70
TSH 4,850 mIU/l 0,050 1,1 0 - 4
PRL 266,9 mIU/L 243,6 193 56.0 - 278.4
Testo 2.81 ng/ml 4,87 8,4 2-8
LH 2,85 U/L 4,11 2,84 1 - 8
SHBG 17,40 nmol/L 29,20 29,90 13.3 - 89.5
DHEAS 6,33 umol/l -- 5,46 2.88 - 12.59

Post a screenshot here for better readability


Bildschirmfoto 2017-07-17 um 23.01.03.png


DHT & GH results for July will arrive in 3 weeks.
 
Last edited:

meatbag

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Hey @Meatbag thanks a lot for your helpful information! I was suspecting the lifting too... Question now is can you even have "normal" liver markers while lifting, bro? :cigar: I have slightly elevated numbers for as long as I can remember. Even before lifting. But then a lot of things changed so really hard to say. I can go a lot longer without eating than before I went on this liver protocol, that's for sure.



This is very good to hear. I'm not obese but do have several kilo of fat to lose, so maybe even this explains the high reading.



I do.

October 2016 February 2017 July 2017 Reference

Albumin 44,9 g/l -- 41,5 35- 52
Cholesterol 7,30 mmol/l 6,00 7,50 0 - 5.20
Trigs 5,12 mmol/l 2,26 6,22 0 - 1.70
TSH 4,850 mIU/l 0,050 1,1 0 - 4
PRL 266,9 mIU/L 243,6 193 56.0 - 278.4
Testo 2.81 ng/ml 4,87 8,4 2-8
LH 2,85 U/L 4,11 2,84 1 - 8
SHBG 17,40 nmol/L 29,20 29,90 13.3 - 89.5
DHEAS 6,33 umol/l -- 5,46 2.88 - 12.59

Post a screenshot here for better readability


View attachment 5965

DHT & GH results for July will arrive in 3 weeks.

Nice, well I don't really know but my doctor said he sees elevated enzymes in people who weight lift and a friend who lifts also had a slight elevation, it probably depends on the amount of damage inflicted on the actual muscle fiber.

Yeah i mean it does seem that high triglycerides aren;t good but not necessarily bad either, it could just be eating too much or just too much fat specifically, it is better than high free fatty acids. Could also indicate that the sugar is not being properly oxidized, there are some posts on the forum about the trigs issue

Peat says this about triglycerides;

"When we eat more protein or carbohydrate than we need, the excess can be converted to fats, to be stored (as triglycerides), but even on a maintenance diet we synthesize some fats that are essential parts of all of our cells, including a great variety of phospholipids. "

Obviously there are different views on that issue but that is Peat's view on it.

Did you change your thyroid supplement between the two 2017 measurements?
 
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moriwatzi

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Nice, well I don't really know but my doctor said he sees elevated enzymes in people who weight lift and a friend who lifts also had a slight elevation, it probably depends on the amount of damage inflicted on the actual muscle fiber.

@haidut posted this study once Muscular exercise can cause highly pathological liver function tests in healthy men They didn't find changes in GGT/gamma-glutamyl transferase however...

Did you change your thyroid supplement between the two 2017 measurements?

Yeah, it just stopped working for me, usually after half a year or so I have to increase and increase and then it's doing nothing anymore, probably pooling / RT3. Then pause for a while, just pure T3 for some weeks, then add in some little pure T4.

Yeah i mean it does seem that high triglycerides aren;t good but not necessarily bad either, it could just be eating too much or just too much fat specifically, it is better than high free fatty acids.

The trigs came down nicely when I was using 10 grams or so of Taurine a day, in February they were almost normalized. Half of that dose of Taurine doesn't seem to cut it for me.
 

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