Wider Face After Using Vitamin K?

[Jennifer]

Hmm...what K supplement were you using before the Pioneer brand, Peata? And were you supplementing with a separate D vitamin at the same time? It's odd that you now have popping. That's something you never had before?

I've had snapping/popping (no pain) in my joints since I was young. I first discovered it during my cheerleading tryouts. I was running in place during a cheer and my knees were snapping like crazy. Never noticed it before that. I'm also double jointed in my elbows and the rest of my body is crazy flexible and I read in Ray's article Blocking Tissue Destruction..."In chronic hypothyroidism (myxedema and cretinism), knees and elbows are often bent abnormally.

I've tried practically everything to stop the snapping and nothing has worked so far, but what you mentioned about the PTH and joint pain I find interesting. I happened to have a DEXA scan done recently and was told by the tech that a sign of osteoporosis being due to a parathyroid issue is accelerated bone loss in the spine, but denser bones in the arms. Half my spine collapsed 6 years ago (was only 26/27) so the osteo there was pretty much as bad as it gets, but my arm bones were/are quite dense. She recommended I get my PTH checked. And a week before the DEXA scan, I had an exam with a specialist who after hearing about the severity of my bone loss and at such a young age, told me to look into my PTH. So I took their advice and got my doctor to check my level and it came back high.

Did/do you have a high PTH level, Peata?

 

[Peata]

Hi Jennifer, I was using Vitacost Ultra K w Advanced K Complex. I don't think that there was any problem with it, probably I was just not taking enough and not getting enough MK4 as a result. I ran out of it at the time I started up the other brand and increased dosage. And no, I wasn't using a separate D before, just whatever D I got in milk and food and a bit of sun.

I have had joint popping most of my life, but I found it interesting that I noticed it more lately - fingers and toes but especially in that wrist because my wrists were joints that never popped. And it's mostly the wrist that had previously been hurting me. When I worked out yesterday I had virtually no indication there had ever been a problem with it as far as pain and swelling.

Of course I can't be 100% sure this had anything to do with the K. But the problem had gone on for 2-1/2 months with no indication of letting up. It was after increasing K and adding the D (that was already in the supp) and the A that I saw result less than 2 weeks. Have not had PTH checked.

 

[Jennifer]

Of course I can't be 100% sure this had anything to do with the K. But the problem had gone on for 2-1/2 months with no indication of letting up. It was after increasing K and adding the D (that was already in the supp) and the A that I saw result less than 2 weeks. Have not had PTH checked.

WOW! That's great, Peata! Gummybear mentioned the A, D and K2 combo making a difference and I know when I was put on a WAPF diet of raw milk, bone broth, cod liver oil and high vitamin butter oil, my teeth became insanely white. In WAPF circles, A, D and K2 is a magic combo. It's good to read that people are gaining benefits with the supplemental forms because I really didn't want to go back to chugging bone broth and consuming cod liver oil ever again.

It'll be interesting to see if the popping in our joints goes away.

I know that when I would get a special test that measured bone breakdown (NTX urine test), it always showed my bones were breaking down at an extremely fast rate and I questioned if all the bone broth and calcium phosphate I was taking was falsely inflating the numbers, since I couldn't understand how they could tell the difference between my bone collagen breakdown (which the test measures for) or the bone broths collagen breakdown. I now wonder if my high PTH is a factor. And I just read yesterday, in one of Ray's articles, how the DEXA scan isn't accurate. Which would explain why my spine still hurts despite my supposed improvement in bone density. Since I was only about 80 pounds when the first DEXA scan was done and I'm now around 110-115, if I understood Ray correctly, the extra fat falsely improves the score. UGH!

So yeah, I'm REALLY happy to read that people are getting apparent bone/tissue benefits with the A, D and K2.

 

[Peata]

It's all very interesting to me and I'm grateful the pain and stiffness in the wrist is gone. As if that wasn't bad enough, a while back I felt that the same thing was starting up slightly in the OTHER wrist too, just before I started taking the A... that would have been hard to deal with because I had taken some comfort in at least one of my wrists being OK. Now they are both fine.

I only wonder if I gave myself a K deficiency by mega dosing Progest E. It could have had something to do with it, along with the fact that I rarely touched green veggies for a long time since starting RP foods. But who knows, it may have a lot more to do with it than that, there's the fact that you have to convert the K1 to K2 anyway. And besides, I NEEDED the Progest E in those massive amounts and would take it again if it came to that (making sure to take the A,D, K of course this time). Hopefully it never will. I feel like it helped get me over an estrogen dominance hump that I had been struggling with for YEARS. Now I just need to maintain the progress I've made and keep plugging away at the other things. It's like if I pulled out individual issues I might see progress or something made worse, but when I look at the overall big picture, I'm doing a lot better.

Anyway, it's very cool what A,D,K can do, and I hope it helps you not have to go back on the bone broth or cod liver oil ever again and get your bones healthier. Keep us updated on it, and I'll definitely update if the popping goes away. I am trying to find more info on that.

Hope others also chime in with their K experiences. Thanks for starting such an uplifting thread, Gummybear.

 

[Peata]

I know that when I would get a special test that measured bone breakdown (NTX urine test), it always showed my bones were breaking down at an extremely fast rate and I questioned if all the bone broth and calcium phosphate I was taking was falsely inflating the numbers, since I couldn't understand how they could tell the difference between my bone collagen breakdown (which the test measures for) or the bone broths collagen breakdown. I now wonder if my high PTH is a factor. And I just read yesterday, in one of Ray's articles, how the DEXA scan isn't accurate. Which would explain why my spine still hurts despite my supposed improvement in bone density. Since I was only about 80 pounds when the first DEXA scan was done and I'm now around 110-115, if I understood Ray correctly, the extra fat falsely improves the score. UGH!

So yeah, I'm REALLY happy to read that people are getting apparent bone/tissue benefits with the A, D and K2.

This RP quote Aquilaroja made in another thread might help too. "One of Selye's colleagues, G. Jasmin, showed that magnesium deficiency causes inflammation. A deficiency of either calcium or magnesium can stimulate the parathyroid glands to produce more hormone (parathyroid hormone, PTH), which increases calcium absorption, but also removes calcium from the bones. This hormone, responding to a dietary calcium or magnesium deficiency, is an important factor in causing cells to take up too much calcium, and its excess is associated with many inflammatory and degenerative diseases."

 

[Jennifer]

Thank you for posting that, Peata. I talked to my doctor yesterday about what Ray said in regards to the DEXA scan's inaccuracy and that I was concerned with my high PTH level which to me says that there's no way I could be building back bone like the DEXA is claiming I am. She agreed that there's definitely controversy over whether DEXAs are accurate and she said that my absolute PTH was normal and that it's my calcium that's high. I forgot to get a readout of my test so I don't have the actual PTH level to compare to what Ray thinks the level should be at. I'll have to get it next month when I see her again.

I also asked her about me possibly having a magnesium deficiency since at the moment, I clearly have hypothyroidism. And even though my estrogen levels are nice and low, my progesterone levels are nonexistent without taking huge amounts of progest-e so I was technically estrogen dominant for some time. At least half my diet is dairy so I'm definitely getting enough calcium and I thought the alkaline minerals could fill in for each other, but maybe having too low of magnesium levels is just as much a problem? The rest of my diet is coming from mostly fruit juice gelatin gummies so I thought I had my magnesium covered, but I'm waiting for the cocoa nibs I ordered to come in so I can start brewing them and that should give me plenty of Mg and other minerals.

All I know is I've had an inflamed gut for over 6 years now that I just can't seem to heal. We've checked for bacteria, fungus, parasites, saliva and blood cortisol levels and all those came back normal. I did an allergy test and of course I was allergic to everything on it, which one would expect since my gut is inflamed. So with Aquilaroga's quote, I wonder if a magnesium deficiency could cause inflammation of the gut also? I'm sure most of my health issues stem from my inflamed gut, I just haven't been able to find the cause.

 

[Peata]

I really don't know a lot about this stuff. But if calcium is high, I thought that meant it wasn't getting in the bone and tissue like it should. And Vitamin K can help that, along with D, is what I have read. AFAIK I have no high PTH either but it's sort of one of those things I have in back of mind to lower if possible, same as I try to do with serotonin, histamine, prolactin, etc.

I'm focusing lately on getting my minerals/electrolytes in more. I think I've done great with getting calcium since starting RP and also sodium. But not so sure on magnesium and potassium. I read that if I get enough magnesium and sodium, I will spare potassium so I take that to mean I don't have to worry about filling in that RDA of potassium daily. Because I rarely do and it would take a lot of particular foods daily. So this week I am making sure to get more magnesium. I take Epsom salt and baking soda baths regularly, but I'm not relying on that. Or the coffee I drink. I'm taking Magnesium Glycinate. That form does not seem to cause diarrhea for me. I think the "glycinate" part of it has added benefit too, from a Peat perspective (glycine). I take a 200 mg. pill in the morning, and 400 mg. at night. I think it helps me get sleepy faster than I normally would when I take the 400 mg. It may not be Peat approved but I'm also sipping on Gatorade or Powerade at times.

Do you get diarrhea a lot?

 

[Jennifer]

I get gut sloshing and profuse diarrhea if I drink juice on it's own, but not when it's consumed in gummy form. I get rash/sores on my face with whole fruits and blisters with honey, especially when combined with dairy and get constipated if I don't have fiber. I get severe heart burn and brain fog with starches and major bloating with veggies, even cooked veggies. This is why I thought I had a bacterial overgrowth going on or even candida overgrowth. I tested off the charts highly sensetive/allergic to eggs so my 5 eggs a day obviously wasn't doing me any favors. :/ But I try to eat a vegetarian diet only and at this point, to heal my gut, I've had to add in the gelatin. I'm literally down to consuming just milk, cottage cheese and fruit gummies. My doctor is having me keep out the eggs for 6 weeks to see if I improve. Lordy, I hope so! As much as I don't want to, I'm probably going to have to add in some shellfish or meat.

I'm taking super strength oregano oil that can melt plastic and that's not an over exaggeration. My last oregano oil order arrived from Greece in a plastic container which had been fused shut due to the oregano oil bottles leaking, but it does clear the rash almost immediately after taking it. I've tried flowers of sulphur, apple cider vinegar, a 30 day course of the Neomycin antibiotic (saw instant improvements that didn't last) and am now taking Glutagenics. If I don't see improvements, I told my doctor about thebigpeatowski's raw garlic experiment and I have to say, it took all I had to not try it before talking with her. I didn't want to make my stomach worse so I decided to wait and ask her. She said if in the next 6 weeks we don't see an improvement, then we'll talk about doing the raw garlic.

So yeah, if I can fix my gut...watch out spine, I'm coming for you! I figure I can take all the supplements in the world, but if my gut isn't digesting or absorbing them properly, I won't get the dramatic benefits that others are getting and I wasn't sure how much can be absorbed through the skin if I applied them there.

BingDing mentioned 25 OH vitamin D (test) levels affecting PTH so I'll have my doctor test my levels since it's been a while and my levels drop really low if I'm not consistently supplementing. I don't know, I really wonder how many of my issue are the result of my gut damage. :/

 

[Peata]

Jennifer, sorry to hear how much you have been through. That would be great if the garlic regimen helped you out. Gut issues do seem to be the root of many problems. Your seems severe for your young age. Glad to hear you're persevering. I hope you keep us updated.

 

[Jennifer]

Thank you, Peata! :) Seems we've all been through our share of struggles, sadly. That's why I get so excited when I read people are overcoming their obstacles.

My gut issues have definitely been severe, but I'm VERY happy to say that I went the whole day today without having any indigestion, bloating, facial blistering or digestive issues. Granted I've had to restrict my diet to dairy, fruit juice gummies and whole cane sugar only, but I see this as temporary. It seems that the eggs and honey I was consuming were the final culprits I had yet to remove from my diet. I'm going to give it a few weeks and see how I'm doing then and if past issues start to creep up, I'll try the allergen-free eating plan that visionofstrength recommended on the Getting Ripped thread. So I do have options and I feel really positive about that. I'll definitely keep you guys updated. Thank you for caring! :)

 

[gummybear]

I haven't brushed my teeth for weeks (months ? omg) and they are scary white! Kinda amazes me.

I bet dentists would crap themselfes if they would read this

 

[Jennifer]

I haven't brushed my teeth for weeks (months ? omg) and they are scary white! Kinda amazes me.

I bet dentists would crap themselfes if they would read this

That's awesome, gummybear! You don't have to brush even when eating starches? If I eat starches, I have to brush. When I eat just dairy and fruits/sucrose, no brushing required.

 

[Peata]

Just to check back in, I stopped A, D&K this week just to see how I do. I haven't been taking aspirin either which was mainly why I took the K. I haven't had any change in anything. I'm just experimenting and trying other supps at the moment.

Gummi, that's far out how great your teeth are doing. Good for you. Mine look better since I supplemented.

 

[Filip1993]

@Jennifer How do you make your fruit juice gummies? Thanks.

 

[Jennifer]

@Jennifer How do you make your fruit juice gummies? Thanks.

I prefer gummies that are soft enough right out of the fridge, but still firm and chewy and this is what I came up with:

4 cups juice
16 tablespoons of gelatin
6 tablespoons of honey or sugar (can adjust depending on sweet preference)

I start off by greasing a 9x13 Pyrex dish with coconut oil and set that aside. I also make sure to clear enough space in my fridge ahead of time for the dish of gelatin to set.

Next, heat up the fruit juice and sugar/honey in a pot on medium heat. After whisking the juice and sweetener together and allowing them to heat up, I take a ladle full of the juice and pour it into a large bowl. Next, I slowly pour a tablespoon of gelatin, one at a time, into the bowl of juice while I whisk vigorously. I repeat this process adding in a small amount of juice before I add a tablespoon of gelatin. The goal is to incorporate the gelatin slowly to help prevent lumps. Once all 16 tablespoons of gelatin are dissolved, I add it to the remaining juice in the pot and whisk till completely dissolved. Once fully dissolved, I pour the pot of heated gelatin into the Pyrex dish, cover it with tin foil and let it cool down on the counter for a half hour, then put it in the fridge to set.

That's about it! I still get lumps every now and then so my method is probably not the best, but I haven't yet found a way to avoid this issue.

 

[straxville]

Is cod liver oil absolutely contraindicated due to PUFA's?

I do not think fermented is a good idea but I found a seemingly good extra virgin CLO ... I ask because I want to take high dosage vitamin A and want to keep the D in balance and CLO is said to be in balance.

I will try out the LEF for K... or the Estro Ban (though i think the K dosage is much lower in this)

 

[haidut]

Is cod liver oil absolutely contraindicated due to PUFA's?

I do not think fermented is a good idea but I found a seemingly good extra virgin CLO ... I ask because I want to take high dosage vitamin A and want to keep the D in balance and CLO is said to be in balance.

I will try out the LEF for K... or the Estro Ban (though i think the K dosage is much lower in this)

The combined amount of the various types of vitamin K in the LEF brand comes down to 2.5mg per dose I think. Estroban has at least 2mg of MK-4 per dose, which is not that far off. I actually made sure that EstroBan is close to the amount of vitamin K the LEF product provides so as to be competitive given that it also has the other 3 fat-soluble vitamins.

 

[HDD]

Is cod liver oil absolutely contraindicated due to PUFA's?

I do not think fermented is a good idea but I found a seemingly good extra virgin CLO ... I ask because I want to take high dosage vitamin A and want to keep the D in balance and CLO is said to be in balance.

I will try out the LEF for K... or the Estro Ban (though i think the K dosage is much lower in this)

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... oils.shtml

Q: Are fish oils good for you?

Some of the unsaturated fats in fish are definitely less toxic than those in corn oil or soy oil, but that doesn't mean they are safe. Fifty years ago, it was found that a large amount of cod liver oil in dogs' diet increased their death rate from cancer by 20 times, from the usual 5% to 100%. A diet rich in fish oil causes intense production of toxic lipid peroxides, and has been observed to reduce a man's sperm count to zero. [H. Sinclair, Prog. Lipid Res. 25, 667, 1989.]


Fish oils are usually highly unsaturated; "dry" types of fish, and shellfish, used once or twice a week, are good. Avoid cod liver oil.

 

[jb116]

Is cod liver oil absolutely contraindicated due to PUFA's?

I do not think fermented is a good idea but I found a seemingly good extra virgin CLO ... I ask because I want to take high dosage vitamin A and want to keep the D in balance and CLO is said to be in balance.

I will try out the LEF for K... or the Estro Ban (though i think the K dosage is much lower in this)

I think it depends. I myself have a Vitamin A supplement that contains "Vitamin A from cod liver and palmitate"
They are soft gels. So it is a derivative not the actual cod liver oil which I see can be consumed in liquid form.
I think the derivative in soft gel pill form is just the A, and none or virtually none of the pufa. The liquid supplements I think contain the pufas.

 

[montmorency]

Remarkable gummy! When you say wider face I.think of those female Hollywood stars of the 40s and 50s. You don't see faces or bone structure like that anymore. What I notice instead is the modern face - longer, with lots of nose, mouth, teeth, but little structure to hang it on, hence crowded teeth, big looking teeth, nose, mouth. Less in the way of cheekbones. this change shows you the face you were born to have.

The good old days!!!!

Here is my favourite lady from those good old days:

(The one and only Veronica Lake)