The Tryptophan steal. Serotonin isn’t the problem

[tommyg130]

Has ray or anybody ever adressed this? The tryptophan steal. I haven’t seen it talked about.

Imo serotonin isn’t really harmful to the extent it’s said in here. There are reasons to avoid tryptophan, but it’s not because of its conversion to serotonin. When under stress Tryptophan usually doesn’t go to serotonin. Which is a problem. You want it going to serotonin.

Tryptophan will follow two pathways. Either 5htp into serotonin. Or

Down the Kynurenine pathway. Not good. The TDO AND IDO enzyme when under stress/inflammation, when there are blood sugar issues will “steal” the tryptophan and take it towards NAD and ADP, at the expense of serotonin. It’s actually our body trying to protect us( like it always does) tryptophan is how we make b3. When the body is healthy and calm the body doesn’t need a lot of NAD because the cells mitochondria is doing fine burning oxygen for for fuel. So to keep our cells alive tryptophan will go towards NAD largely and spare serotonin this way we stay alive. Extra NAD Let’s our cells produce energy w out oxygen.

I don’t really see why serotonin is blamed. Under stress it may be best to avoid tryptophan because it won’t be going down the right pathway. However we aren’t suffering bc of elevated serotonin. Could be quite the opposite.

To fix this we have to heal the system, fix adrenal issues, etc ,restore mitochondrial health like we know. A quick effective fix for sure would be to supplement b3 to fix the defecit that makes tryptophan want to go down the wrong pathway.

Another point .. tryptophan supplementing when under stress wouldn’t be good. However I don’t see how 5htp would be the worst thing bc it’s skipping that pathway and getting right to serotonin(where it needs to) if you don’t agree w that, that’s another story. Again genetics and predispositions come into Play. Everyone is different regarding if they are sensitive
To low serotonin or high serotonin. But I’ll tell you by no means do I think the vast majority is serotonin overloaded

Edit.
I have heard ray say trytophan isn’t an issue with a healthy metabolism, but what I just mentioned I dont
Think he agrees w it and sees serotonin directly as a problem, whereas I don’t. Very much open to convo here.

Side note . When ppl say they feel good taking b3 bc it lowers serotonin? Doesn’t make any sense to me. It would honestly end up raising serotonin by straightening out this faulty pathway issue

 

[xeliex]

Bump.

@Hans

 

[Chad_Catholic]

i'm wondering the same thing... my sister had great success with Escitalopram

 

[TeslaFan]

Yes, Ray talks about negative aspects of SSRI primarily, and shows us that low serotonin is not a source of depression as advertised, etc. I don't recall him ever writing about natural serotonin being "bad". Even the concept of something being "bad" is entirely dependent on the context, and not Ray-like.

Same with estrogen, where many readers assume that it is an "evil" substance that needs to be removed from the body, etc, whereas Ray's context is often the promotion of estrogen from medical/pharma industry in regards to osteoporosis, birth control, and post menopause hormone replacement, and its general opposition to progesterone. In fact, Ray's frequent context is Progesterone, since that was his Ph.D. focus.

Context is the key to understanding Dr. Peat. He goes wide and dives deep.
May his beautiful soul rest in peace!

 

[tommyg130]

i'm wondering the same thing... my sister had great success with Escitalopram

What is that ?

 

[imzack]

What is that ?

Its a SSRI.

I have also benefited from escitalopram in the past.

I am skeptical of Ray Peat saying serotonin is bad, as these drugs have help a lot of people.

Also tried trypotphan + DLPA with great success, better than the SSRI.

But after a while, they became ineffective, and actually, tryptophan can make my mood go down.

So its every complicated. I think the OPs question about trypophan, and its metabolism need to be investigated further, as there could be other paths, that are making people feel good or bad using these substances.

 

[Andy316]

@imzack Very interesting. Do MSG and umami flavored foods work like tryptophan to raise serotonin?

 

[success23]

Soo take 5htp and avoid tryptophan?

 

[Peater]

Has ray or anybody ever adressed this? The tryptophan steal. I haven’t seen it talked about.

Imo serotonin isn’t really harmful to the extent it’s said in here. There are reasons to avoid tryptophan, but it’s not because of its conversion to serotonin. When under stress Tryptophan usually doesn’t go to serotonin. Which is a problem. You want it going to serotonin.

Tryptophan will follow two pathways. Either 5htp into serotonin. Or

Down the Kynurenine pathway. Not good. The TDO AND IDO enzyme when under stress/inflammation, when there are blood sugar issues will “steal” the tryptophan and take it towards NAD and ADP, at the expense of serotonin. It’s actually our body trying to protect us( like it always does) tryptophan is how we make b3. When the body is healthy and calm the body doesn’t need a lot of NAD because the cells mitochondria is doing fine burning oxygen for for fuel. So to keep our cells alive tryptophan will go towards NAD largely and spare serotonin this way we stay alive. Extra NAD Let’s our cells produce energy w out oxygen.

I don’t really see why serotonin is blamed. Under stress it may be best to avoid tryptophan because it won’t be going down the right pathway. However we aren’t suffering bc of elevated serotonin. Could be quite the opposite.

To fix this we have to heal the system, fix adrenal issues, etc ,restore mitochondrial health like we know. A quick effective fix for sure would be to supplement b3 to fix the defecit that makes tryptophan want to go down the wrong pathway.

Another point .. tryptophan supplementing when under stress wouldn’t be good. However I don’t see how 5htp would be the worst thing bc it’s skipping that pathway and getting right to serotonin(where it needs to) if you don’t agree w that, that’s another story. Again genetics and predispositions come into Play. Everyone is different regarding if they are sensitive
To low serotonin or high serotonin. But I’ll tell you by no means do I think the vast majority is serotonin overloaded

Edit.
I have heard ray say trytophan isn’t an issue with a healthy metabolism, but what I just mentioned I dont
Think he agrees w it and sees serotonin directly as a problem, whereas I don’t. Very much open to convo here.

Side note . When ppl say they feel good taking b3 bc it lowers serotonin? Doesn’t make any sense to me. It would honestly end up raising serotonin by straightening out this faulty pathway issue

Fascinating post Tommy. I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment - did you find out any more?

 

[Frankdee20]

Tryptophan can also be converted to niacin

 

[DonLore]

Its a SSRI.

I have also benefited from escitalopram in the past.

I am skeptical of Ray Peat saying serotonin is bad, as these drugs have help a lot of people.

Also tried trypotphan + DLPA with great success, better than the SSRI.

But after a while, they became ineffective, and actually, tryptophan can make my mood go down.

So its every complicated. I think the OPs question about trypophan, and its metabolism need to be investigated further, as there could be other paths, that are making people feel good or bad using these substances.

The existance of SSRI discontinuation syndrome is enough to know that SSRIs are not safe..

 

[dukesbobby777]

My take on tryptophan and 5HTP:

Tryptophan: Made me sleepy (great for sleep), docile, passive, mentally retarded (cognitive decline). Felt loopy (I became confused by things at work). The following morning, I felt all the above effects but with severe grogginess, that pretty much ruined the next day (felt much similar to a melatonin hangover).

5HTP: This felt more like a drug, but it also caused me to feel very aggressive. Very strange to me at the time, as I was expecting a 'mood boost'. But when I read Peat's article on serotonin, I started to understand very well about this (what I perceived to be) 'strange' side effect I was getting.

Also, I don't think you can compare tryptophan, 5HTP and an SSRI. They are all three separate things. You can't compare coffee (dopaminergic) to crack cocaine (dopaminergic), and you can't compare the nutrient choline (cholinergic) to the substance galantamine (cholinergic). Different compounds, different mechanisms.

 

[Nimo]

is here someone who have long term benefits from supplementing tryptophan or 5htp?
7 years ago i was taking Ashwagandha for 1 year straight, calm mood, best sleep, no anxiety. i stopped because after 9 months i developed erectile dysfunction, but after one week without ashwagandha all wase same as before, no ED. benefits lasted couple months after i quit ashwagandha.
2 years ago i was taking 5HTP for 2 months straight, calm mood, best sleep, no anxiety, if taken in the morning it made me little bit sleepy but it was not problem for me as i feel like more dopamine person and i have alot energy during day, i dont drink coffe i can easy exercise every day without losing my energy.
im 30yo but from times as i was 10yo or so i had problems with ruminating mind, afraid of dark, bad tolerance to stress like traveling with plane, alot people in cinema etc. i know Ray was against but i dont believe increasing serotonin is bad for everyone, it is alot personal thing and i know people who get changed life after increasing 5HTP. body is really hard to undearstand and i dont like idea "one size fit all". so im just wondering if there are peoples who experiment with those supplements.

 

[dlind]

Imo serotonin isn’t really harmful to the extent it’s said in here. There are reasons to avoid tryptophan, but it’s not because of its conversion to serotonin. When under stress Tryptophan usually doesn’t go to serotonin. Which is a problem. You want it going to serotonin.

Tryptophan will follow two pathways. Either 5htp into serotonin. Or

Down the Kynurenine pathway. Not good. The TDO AND IDO enzyme when under stress/inflammation, when there are blood sugar issues will “steal” the tryptophan and take it towards NAD and ADP, at the expense of serotonin. It’s actually our body trying to protect us( like it always does) tryptophan is how we make b3. When the body is healthy and calm the body doesn’t need a lot of NAD because the cells mitochondria is doing fine burning oxygen for for fuel. So to keep our cells alive tryptophan will go towards NAD largely and spare serotonin this way we stay alive. Extra NAD Let’s our cells produce energy w out oxygen.

I don’t really see why serotonin is blamed. Under stress it may be best to avoid tryptophan because it won’t be going down the right pathway. However we aren’t suffering bc of elevated serotonin. Could be quite the opposite.

I believe this is backwards. The application of kynurenine compounds was recently found to have therapeutic efficacy for fibrosis, while serotonin was implicated in its development.

"Fibrosis is a pathological form of aberrant tissue repair, the complications of which account for nearly half of all deaths in the industrialized world."

"release of serotonin, such as that exuded from degranulated platelets and subsequent signaling via activation of distinct cell surface receptors, leads to fibroblast activation and excessive collagen deposition, hallmarks of fibrotic pathophysiology."

"On the other hand, recent reports demonstrate that kynurenine compounds, whether administered pharmacologically or induced via IDO overexpression, display potent anti-fibrotic activity through antagonism of fibroblast differentiation and promotion of collagen degradation. In addition to contributing to a more complete understanding of the basic biology of fibrosis, these reports suggest that inhibition of specifc serotonin signaling pathways or pharmacologic administration of kynurenines may show therapeutic potential for treatment of tissue fibrosis in humans."