Milk Calcium And The Tryptophan-serotonin Pathway

tara

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BobbyDukes said:
Vita3 said:
Ray Peat himself eats sometimes sardines if there is no food available.

Ray Peat packs a tin of sardines everywhere he goes, because you never know when you might run out of food :cool:
Man after my own heart, never go anywhere without food. :)

Doesn't necessarily make it optimal as a major daily protein or calcium source if you have better things available, though.
 

tara

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I guess that makes sardines a part of Peat's diet (2015?).
But not necessarily part of Narouz's current specs for the perfect Peat Diet.

To me, this speaks to 'the perfect is the enemy of the good', and it not being necessary for most people to be so strict that they completely rule out most food.
 
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Waremu

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I've read a couple places that B6 steers tryptophan to the niacin pathway, though not RP or maybe entirely reliable. All of the B vitamins are cofactors in many, many metabolic pathways and keeping them up is generally smart in any case.

Serotonin in the brain and serotonin in the body are two different things, they are generally treated as separate pools since serotonin does not cross the blood brain barrier. Milk is pretty high in the all the other amino acids that use the same transporter across the BBB, including the BCAAs, my theory is that a very small amount of the tryptophan in milk ever gets into the brain so converting into serotonin there is not as problematic as it might seem. Maybe it's the same with methionine, I haven't thought that out.

Yes, some information was already provided earlier on the threat concerning tryptophan in milk and how casein and calcium both are protective in the milk. I think that isn't a huge concern now, as there seems to be good evidence backing that up. My original concern was that whenever the claim of calcium and casein in milk being protective from serotonin conversion was made, no to very little evidence was ever presented to back that up. But there does appear to be studies in this --- more than only one which I have seen Peat himself use mainly.

But my main concern is also about the methionine content of diary and how there doesn't seem to be much if a way to effectively restrict that amino acid if one is trying to restrict all of the three main inflammatory amino acids that Ray talks about (cystein, tryptophan, methionine), with mwthionine being the most toxic.

Haidut has a post about supplementing BCAAs with any protein that contains much tryptophan, this is exactly the same thing, just extending the idea a bit.

Serotonin in the body can be reduced with different supplements, I don't want to free list a bunch of things and make a mistake but there are plenty of threads on the forum.

Yes, I have read what haidut has posted concerning serotonin and that isn't my main concern, really. My main concern is how to restrict the high methionine content of dairy.

If one is restricting tryptophan, as Ray recommends, but not restricting methionine, that would seem a little counter-productive to me. I know that BCAA can reduce methionine absorption by 50%, but I don't want to have to rely on taking BCCA's every single time I consume dairy. I know keeping Felton up in the diet can help, but I just don't know how much protection it will other if one is consuming a large amount of methionine.
 

tara

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Waremu said:
I know keeping Felton up in the diet can help, but I just don't know how much protection it will other if one is consuming a large amount of methionine.
Is this your spell checker running amok? Or is Felton a thing I just haven't heard of yet?
 

dd99

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I don't know, tara, I've always felt I could do with a bit more Felton.
 

tara

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BobbyDukes

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tara said:
BobbyDukes said:
Vita3 said:
Ray Peat himself eats sometimes sardines if there is no food available.

Ray Peat packs a tin of sardines everywhere he goes, because you never know when you might run out of food :cool:
Man after my own heart, never go anywhere without food. :)

Doesn't necessarily make it optimal as a major daily protein or calcium source if you have better things available, though.

Haha, yeah, I guess I was being a bit silly. To me, I don't know why Ray Peat would carry something that has more PUFA in it, than he'd like.

Would he not carry dates around or something similar, instead? Or, if he does have to eat something from a tin, the tins of tuna we get here in the UK are pretty much zero in fat. I don't know, a few things seem to be different out there in the US, though.
 

tara

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BobbyDukes said:
tara said:
BobbyDukes said:
Vita3 said:
Ray Peat himself eats sometimes sardines if there is no food available.

Ray Peat packs a tin of sardines everywhere he goes, because you never know when you might run out of food :cool:
Man after my own heart, never go anywhere without food. :)

Doesn't necessarily make it optimal as a major daily protein or calcium source if you have better things available, though.

Haha, yeah, I guess I was being a bit silly. To me, I don't know why Ray Peat would carry something that has more PUFA in it, than he'd like.

Would he not carry dates around or something similar, instead? Or, if he does have to eat something from a tin, the tins of tuna we get here in the UK are pretty much zero in fat. I don't know, a few things seem to be different out there in the US, though.
Maybe some protein and calcium to go with whatever sugar source?
Hasn't he said that tuna, being higher up the food chain, are likely to accumulate more mercury?
Or maybe he just likes the taste of them. :)
 

Anthony

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tara said:
BobbyDukes said:
tara said:
BobbyDukes said:
Vita3 said:
Ray Peat himself eats sometimes sardines if there is no food available.

Ray Peat packs a tin of sardines everywhere he goes, because you never know when you might run out of food :cool:
Man after my own heart, never go anywhere without food. :)

Doesn't necessarily make it optimal as a major daily protein or calcium source if you have better things available,

Haha, yeah, I guess I was being a bit silly. To me, I don't know why Ray Peat would carry something that has more PUFA in it, than he'd like.

Would he not carry dates around or something similar, instead? Or, if he does have to eat something from a tin, the tins of tuna we get here in the UK are pretty much zero in fat. I don't know, a few things seem to be different out there in the US, though.
Maybe some protein and calcium to go with whatever sugar source?
Hasn't he said that tuna, being higher up the food chain, are likely to accumulate more mercury?










Or maybe he just likes the taste of them. :)







Or maybe you guys dont know as much about Peats work as you like to think you do
 

BobbyDukes

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tara said:
BobbyDukes said:
tara said:
BobbyDukes said:
Vita3 said:
Ray Peat himself eats sometimes sardines if there is no food available.

Ray Peat packs a tin of sardines everywhere he goes, because you never know when you might run out of food :cool:
Man after my own heart, never go anywhere without food. :)

Doesn't necessarily make it optimal as a major daily protein or calcium source if you have better things available, though.

Haha, yeah, I guess I was being a bit silly. To me, I don't know why Ray Peat would carry something that has more PUFA in it, than he'd like.

Would he not carry dates around or something similar, instead? Or, if he does have to eat something from a tin, the tins of tuna we get here in the UK are pretty much zero in fat. I don't know, a few things seem to be different out there in the US, though.
Maybe some protein and calcium to go with whatever sugar source?
Hasn't he said that tuna, being higher up the food chain, are likely to accumulate more mercury?
Or maybe he just likes the taste of them. :)

Could be that they digest better too. I know that, for me, no dates in the world are good for my digestion. Those things give me more irritation than anything else I've tried so far! Really bad things for my gut. I so wanted them to work as well. They have decent nutrition, are mega high in sugar and calories; Just what a guy, like me (who wants to limit fat and ramp his carbs right up), needs.

And that's assuming that Ray does carry sardines everywhere!

If he does though, it's interesting to look into the reasons why he choses 'A' over 'B'. Especially when they are as knowledgable as him.
 

BobbyDukes

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Anthony said:
tara said:
BobbyDukes said:
tara said:
BobbyDukes said:
Vita3 said:
Ray Peat himself eats sometimes sardines if there is no food available.

Ray Peat packs a tin of sardines everywhere he goes, because you never know when you might run out of food :cool:
Man after my own heart, never go anywhere without food. :)

Doesn't necessarily make it optimal as a major daily protein or calcium source if you have better things available,

Haha, yeah, I guess I was being a bit silly. To me, I don't know why Ray Peat would carry something that has more PUFA in it, than he'd like.

Would he not carry dates around or something similar, instead? Or, if he does have to eat something from a tin, the tins of tuna we get here in the UK are pretty much zero in fat. I don't know, a few things seem to be different out there in the US, though.
Maybe some protein and calcium to go with whatever sugar source?
Hasn't he said that tuna, being higher up the food chain, are likely to accumulate more mercury?










Or maybe he just likes the taste of them. :)







Or maybe you guys dont know as much about Peats work as you like to think you do

We were just speculating on the reasons why Peat would chose sardines to carry about (if that is true). It's actually nothing to do with knowledge of Peat's work in general. Of course, only Peat would truly know why.
 

tara

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Anthony said:
Or maybe you guys dont know as much about Peats work as you like to think you do
If you have information about this that the rest of us don't feel free to share it. :) As BobbyDukes said, we are explicitly speculating on this question.
 
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jyb

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Anthony said:
Correct me if I am wrong isn't Ray Peat against Fish Oil consumption from supplemental sources and not Whole Food sources?

No, all bad according to Peat - pufa is pufa. Oily fish like salmon has pufa. Same for many other Whole Foods, whether due to pufa or other poisons.
 
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Waremu

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tara said:
Waremu said:
I know keeping Felton up in the diet can help, but I just don't know how much protection it will other if one is consuming a large amount of methionine.
Is this your spell checker running amok? Or is Felton a thing I just haven't heard of yet?

Yes, I meant Gelatin. Auto correct on the iPhone is sometimes quite problematic and obtrusive.
 

Mauritio

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Some posters said that t3 turns white/gray hair into darker hair. If so, that suggests that thyroid hormone is involved in tryptophan metabolism. White hair has the highest amount of tryptophan of all hair colors. That thyroid hormone reduces it suggests it can alter tryptophan metabolism.

Thus, there might be more than one way to manipulate tryptophan metabolism.

why does peat have grey here then ? shouldnt his thyroid be optimal ?
 

Samurai Drive

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My main concern isn't avoiding milk/dairy completely, but rather, if those who still have broken/slow metabolisms should limit dairy and, with whatever dairy they consume, add gelatin/glycine.

Ray Peat said that the calcium to phosphorus ratio is a major factor in whether the tryptophan in milk will go down the serotonin or niacin pathway, but one thing I think that he said, which was vague, and that perhaps not many people picked up on, is that estrogen itself also causes it to go down the serotonin pathway. The problem is, however, that *almost everyone* who is in the healing stage, to various degrees, suffers from estrogen dominance (that is, producing more estrogen then they should naturally produce if they achieved ideal metabolic efficiency). So that then brings up the question: should most people who are in the "healing" stage be consuming so much milk, due to the estrogen dominance, etc.? As I think about this more, I think it may *perhaps* be ideal for those who are still healing to not overdo it with the milk --- unless there is sufficient evidence that most or all of the tryptophan in milk is not signaling the production of more serotonin. In other words, even if someone has a ideal calcium to phosphorus ratio established via diet, if they are hypothyroid and estrogen dominant, then chances are, even the calcium in milk will offer complete protection from the high tryptophan content.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, I have seen no studies showing that the tryptophan in the milk will be mostly converted to niacin if someone is supplementing or ingesting sufficient or large quantities of it. Therefore, without scientific evidence, it seems like pure speculation to say that the body will just blindly continue to convert all the tryptophan in milk to niacin if it's niacin requirements are already being met via diet/supplementation. The body is very intelligent and will not always continue to convert a substance to a nutrient if it's nutritional needs are being met through diet/supplementation and therefore may steer down a different pathway instead.
 

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