Testosterone Levels, Dhea, Pregnenolone, Thyroid And Bloodworks (right Subforum)!

[Insomnia]

Hi People,

I actually don't know where to start, but I'll explain in in short.
Basically I am using supplements since last year september. 1 month after I started, I had some bloodworks done and I got I high TSH, which led to the conclusion I was somewhat hypothyroid. This was way before I started supplementing, I think I have improved (as in body temperature wise). However, there are some things I need to know (which I will explain soon). This is what I've been using currently:

- Thorne Multivitamin:
Basic Nutrients 2/Day
- Vitamin C:
Did take 1g for a while, now I'm at approx 500mg-750mg a day. Still use 1g occasionally.
- Iodine:
Approx 12.5mg daily. U may get (what they call) detox symptoms, it was very unpleasant in the beginning. It sometimes (rarely) still is, but that may be due to the fact that I am not supplementing it long enough yet. Please research this well, because it's a kinda tricky supplement. You do not want to make mistakes, but if u have any questions just ask em. I'm glad enough to have the chance of answering them.
-Selenium
Used to take brazil nuts (x2) but now my multivitamin contains 200mcg of this, so I take 1 extra brazil nut (= anywhere between 50-200 mcg, depending on size).
-Vitamin D
Used to take approx 1200IU a day, but I am still at 76nmol/l which is 30ng/ml. I took 5000IU to see if I could hit higher values (until I reached 40-50). I reached this level last week and now I cut down to 2000IU-3000IU a day. I will continue to experiment and see if I can stay at approx 40 ng/ml
-Zinc 30mg
15mg bisglycinate (from Multi)
15mg picolinate (from thorne)
= 30mg in total
-Copper:
I almost never use it, perhaps 1 once every 2 weeks or once a week.
-Magnesium:
400-600mg a day. I use it in chloride form (orally) and I also have a spray which I can apply topically (and I do this after heavy workouts)
-Vitamin E:
Mixed tocopherols only 50-200IU a day, unique E.
-Vitamin K2:
200mcg as MK7 (using it once every 3 days)
45MG (45000mcg) as Mk4, I will eventually cut this back to 5-9 mg daily
- Taurine: 1000mg to 2000mg a day
- Boron: 2mg during off periods and 7-9mg during cycling periods
-cycling 3 days on and 3 days off (Thursday, Friday and Saturday are the days I am using it)
- Great Lake Gelatin supplement (Kosher Beef Hide one, not the porcine one)
- Vitamin A:
I recently added extra vitamin A, because my multivitamin was only containing 2000IU of retionol palimitate and 3000IU of carotene. I used cod liver oil and that contained 3000IU of retinol aswell, so that would make it 5000IU of retinol and 3000IU from carotene. Sometimes I use 10-12.5k daily.
In a week, that would make up to a total of 30-40k of retinol.
- Calcium:
500mg on days where I feel I don't get enough calcium through my diet.
-CoQ10 (Kaneka): 100 - 200mg daily
- Turmeric: something in liquid form that I use once-twice a week, teaspoon full.

Now for my bloodwork results, I actually had my testosterone measured (prior to supplementing or around that time when I started) and it said this were my results:

September 2016
TSH 7.5 mU/L (0.3-4.2)
FT4 16 pmol/L (12-22)

December 2016
TSH 6.3 mU/L (0.3-4.2)
FT4 15 pmol/L (12-22)
Anti-TPO test to rule out Hashimoto's <28 kU/L (<= 60)
Testosteron 34 nmol/L (5.5-25) [34 nmol/L = 9.81 ng/L = 981 ng/dL]

February 2017
TSH 8.5 mU/L (0.3-4.2)
FT4 14 pmol/L (12-22)
Anti-TPO <28 kU/L (<=60)
Testosteron 34 nmol/L (5.5-25) [34 nmol/L = 9.81 ng/L = 981 ng/dL]
25-OH Vitamin D3 130 nmol/L (50-150) [optimal 150-200]


So my testosterone stayed the same. I am actually thinking of using pansterone or androsterone, but perhaps I may not need it all together. Hence I am reaching out to you guys. I can pretty much choose any type of bloodwork, so don't worry about the costs (it's about my health after all)

My question(s) since I am getting bloodworks done this week:
1) Should I get my Dhea measured, and if so, what are optimal levels. Is there a specific (preffered) type of measuring it, what do I need to ask the doctor.

2) What about my testosterone levels, I assume they are good? Would it be dangerous to use pansterone (i.e. pregnenolone and dhea)

3) any other type of supplementation that u would or would not recommend.

I am 25 years old btw!

Thank you guys!

@haidut @Constatine (hoping that u guys take a look at this thread also if possible)

 

[marsaday]

Why is your TSH so high ?????

What is your FT3 figure ???

You need that to really understand what is going on. You can have high Ft4, but very low levels of Ft3.

Your FT4 is mid'ish range. It could be a bit higher and it has dropped from September.

I would say your thyroid is starting to slow down. This is pretty normal for someone older, but not at your age. Do you have any thyroid issues in the family ?

To see if this is the issue a simple trial of a lower level of T4 would be good. I would start on 50 T4 and see what impact it has. You would notice a change within a day or two if you are missing this hormone.

Testosterone is high so i don't think this is the issue with your health. I think it is more thyroid related.

I would start any of the supplements you mention until you investigate the thyroid a bit more.

I assume you are not fully well. What symptoms do you have ?

Your TPO results do rule out hashimotos, but i think you also need to get a few more specific tests for this disorder to fully rule it out. Have a google which other thyroid bloods you need for this issue.

 

[Insomnia]

Why is your TSH so high ?????

What is your FT3 figure ???

You need that to really understand what is going on. You can have high Ft4, but very low levels of Ft3.

Your FT4 is mid'ish range. It could be a bit higher and it has dropped from September.

I would say your thyroid is starting to slow down. This is pretty normal for someone older, but not at your age. Do you have any thyroid issues in the family ?

To see if this is the issue a simple trial of a lower level of T4 would be good. I would start on 50 T4 and see what impact it has. You would notice a change within a day or two if you are missing this hormone.

Testosterone is high so i don't think this is the issue with your health. I think it is more thyroid related.

I would start any of the supplements you mention until you investigate the thyroid a bit more.

I assume you are not fully well. What symptoms do you have ?

Your TPO results do rule out hashimotos, but i think you also need to get a few more specific tests for this disorder to fully rule it out. Have a google which other thyroid bloods you need for this issue.

I can't see my ft3 figure because it didn't show it on paper (wasn't included in test), but perhaps I can ask my doctor to measure that one also. I think my thyroid issues started to kick in somewhere in my teens, because I had extremely cold hands since I can remember. My grandmother always asked me why my hands were so cold. She said, as a child you didn't have that much of cold hands. My TSH has risen because of the iodine (where some peopel say it's a transient phase). I think this weeks bloodwork will give me more info in that regard. Thank you so much for responding btw, I really appreciate the help.

 

[theLaw]

Whole list of sups.........................and not a word about diet.

 

[Insomnia]

Whole list of sups.........................and not a word about diet.

U actually have a point here, I didn't put it in because I didn't want my story to become long and boring. I'll think about it and maybe write a short summary tomorrow (because I have to work in about 8 hours, so I need to get some rest). Thanks for ur input anyways :)

Greetings,

From the Netherlands.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Well, first off, your testosterone looks great. You're 25, and it's on the high (ish) side of the range, which is great. I wouldn't think there would be any need for you to use pansterone or any of the other hormones. Those are youth associated hormones, and being that you're young and testosterone looks good, I would forget about using those for 5, 10, 15 years.

As for the TSH being so high....... it's likely BECAUSE of the high dose iodine. Yes, I am aware of the iodine protocol, and yes, I even did it myself (hell, I took the 50mg Iodoral pills at one point). I just don't see any need to go over 1mg a day unless you are being exposed to extreme amounts of radiation, like a nuclear reactor melting down within 100 miles of where you live. Even then, it's only protective and needed for a few days to a week or so after the accident. But even the iodine doctors (Abraham, Brownstein, and Flechas) admit that high dose iodine can elevate TSH. Their advice is to simply ride it out.

This article by Dr. Alan Christianson does a nice job summing up the seven basic claims of the high dose iodine protocol (from 12.5 to 50mg a day), and logically countering them. He is absolutely familiar with the iodine protocol claims, and has seen clinical evidence in his patients of the potential harms.

Ray Peat himself is not a fan of super high dose iodine, either. He cautions going close to 1mg for any extended period of time. Here is a collection of some of Ray's quotes on iodine from Functional PS- The Myth of Iodine Deficiency: An Interview with Dr. Ray Peat – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Also, not sure if boron is that good a supplement. If you do take it, stick to the lower end (2mg), no need to go higher than that.

 

[Insomnia]

Well, first off, your testosterone looks great. You're 25, and it's on the high (ish) side of the range, which is great. I wouldn't think there would be any need for you to use pansterone or any of the other hormones. Those are youth associated hormones, and being that you're young and testosterone looks good, I would forget about using those for 5, 10, 15 years.

As for the TSH being so high....... it's likely BECAUSE of the high dose iodine. Yes, I am aware of the iodine protocol, and yes, I even did it myself (hell, I took the 50mg Iodoral pills at one point). I just don't see any need to go over 1mg a day unless you are being exposed to extreme amounts of radiation, like a nuclear reactor melting down within 100 miles of where you live. Even then, it's only protective and needed for a few days to a week or so after the accident. But even the iodine doctors (Abraham, Brownstein, and Flechas) admit that high dose iodine can elevate TSH. Their advice is to simply ride it out.

This article by Dr. Alan Christianson does a nice job summing up the seven basic claims of the high dose iodine protocol (from 12.5 to 50mg a day), and logically countering them. He is absolutely familiar with the iodine protocol claims, and has seen clinical evidence in his patients of the potential harms.

Ray Peat himself is not a fan of super high dose iodine, either. He cautions going close to 1mg for any extended period of time. Here is a collection of some of Ray's quotes on iodine from Functional PS- The Myth of Iodine Deficiency: An Interview with Dr. Ray Peat – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

Also, not sure if boron is that good a supplement. If you do take it, stick to the lower end (2mg), no need to go higher than that.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one using the iodine and that u were able to give me more insight on this. My question is, what is a good maintenance dose (daily) regarding iodine. Would 3 drops of nascent iodine (= 1800 mcg = 1.8mg) + 1 drop of lugols ( = 2.5mg) be sufficient as in, getting enough iodine from various sources. "Their advice is to simply ride it out", do u mean that they meant to just continue that dose (since my English isn't strong on all points) forever?

Thanks, I'll cut the dosage regarding the iodine and same goes for the boron. I'm really glad u responded to this thread, makes me less worried/undecisive on what I should do next.

Greetings,

from the Netherlands

 

[tankasnowgod]

I'm glad that I'm not the only one using the iodine and that u were able to give me more insight on this. My question is, what is a good maintenance dose (daily) regarding iodine. Would 3 drops of nascent iodine (= 1800 mcg = 1.8mg) + 1 drop of lugols ( = 2.5mg) be sufficient as in, getting enough iodine from various sources. "Their advice is to simply ride it out", do u mean that they meant to just continue that dose (since my English isn't strong on all points) forever?

Thanks, I'll cut the dosage regarding the iodine and same goes for the boron. I'm really glad u responded to this thread, makes me less worried/undecisive on what I should do next.

Greetings,

from the Netherlands

In regards to the "ride it out" comment..... The doctors that came up with the iodine protocol acknowledge that iodine can indeed raise TSH, sometimes to really high levels (I've seen one person claim it shot it up to 38!). These are often people that had high TSH before treatment, and iodine caused it to go even higher. The official stance I've seen from the iodine doctors (and I think it was Brownstein) was to maintain the high dose iodine, that and that TSH will probably come down in about six months. Note the word probably- it doesn't always happen. Brownstein admits that he still uses dessicated thyroid in about 33% of his iodine patients.

As far as a maintenance dose of iodine..... well, what you suggested is still pretty high. 1 or 2 drops of lugols a week (not a day) would probably be fine. Alternately, you could do a drop of nascent a day, or every other day. If you look at some of the older uses of iodine (like from the 1920s and such), it would be two to three drops of lugols a week.

But I don't even know if that much is advisable, anymore. Personally, I quit the high dose iodine years ago. It seemed to help with some hypo symptoms for a while, but I ended up dealing with the absolute worst freezing cold hands and feet of my life (I still remember a few days where I had to sneak out of work to go to the car in the spring, just to blast hot air on them, cause they were so cold, I had pain). I started on NDT around that time, and that eliminated 90% of symptoms, and those that remained were greatly reduced.

I'll end up taking 150 mcg of iodine in a multi from time to time, and still using lugols on skin issues, or if I need to dissinfect something, but that is infrequent. NDT or a mix of T3/T4 is superior in my experience.

 

[marsaday]

I think high iodine use can kick start thyroid antibodies. So you can start hashimotoes, So best not to use in big amounts. If you have hashimotoes it is a bad idea to start on iodine.

Hashimotoes is the name of the doc who discovered this auto immune illness. It was in Japan where this stuff happened and they think it was down to the diet rich in iodine from seaweed which causes this issue.

I understand why the TSH is higher now. A higher TSH tends to help T4 to T3 conversion. It would be good to get the FT3 blood test as i mentioned earlier.

 

[Insomnia]

In regards to the "ride it out" comment..... The doctors that came up with the iodine protocol acknowledge that iodine can indeed raise TSH, sometimes to really high levels (I've seen one person claim it shot it up to 38!). These are often people that had high TSH before treatment, and iodine caused it to go even higher. The official stance I've seen from the iodine doctors (and I think it was Brownstein) was to maintain the high dose iodine, that and that TSH will probably come down in about six months. Note the word probably- it doesn't always happen. Brownstein admits that he still uses dessicated thyroid in about 33% of his iodine patients.

As far as a maintenance dose of iodine..... well, what you suggested is still pretty high. 1 or 2 drops of lugols a week (not a day) would probably be fine. Alternately, you could do a drop of nascent a day, or every other day. If you look at some of the older uses of iodine (like from the 1920s and such), it would be two to three drops of lugols a week.

But I don't even know if that much is advisable, anymore. Personally, I quit the high dose iodine years ago. It seemed to help with some hypo symptoms for a while, but I ended up dealing with the absolute worst freezing cold hands and feet of my life (I still remember a few days where I had to sneak out of work to go to the car in the spring, just to blast hot air on them, cause they were so cold, I had pain). I started on NDT around that time, and that eliminated 90% of symptoms, and those that remained were greatly reduced.

I'll end up taking 150 mcg of iodine in a multi from time to time, and still using lugols on skin issues, or if I need to dissinfect something, but that is infrequent. NDT or a mix of T3/T4 is superior in my experience.

Thanks, once again. I already have cut the dose today, so I am glad I actually have done so. I do have cold hands/feet at times, but nowhere near as it used to be. Are there perhaps other biological functions/vitamins that involve in controlling body heat/temperature? I mean, is there any other possible "disease/illness/malfunction" that could possibly explain cold hands/feet. I do have a low bodyfat, but I had cold hands/feet that were worse at 13% bodyfat. I am now at 5% and I feel better then I used to. I'll ask my doctor if he can prescribe me anything for the TSH, but first I'll wait and see if it comes down a little and then do another bloodtest.

I think high iodine use can kick start thyroid antibodies. So you can start hashimotoes, So best not to use in big amounts. If you have hashimotoes it is a bad idea to start on iodine.

Hashimotoes is the name of the doc who discovered this auto immune illness. It was in Japan where this stuff happened and they think it was down to the diet rich in iodine from seaweed which causes this issue.

I understand why the TSH is higher now. A higher TSH tends to help T4 to T3 conversion. It would be good to get the FT3 blood test as i mentioned earlier.

Thanks, they took some blood today. I hope the tests will reveal info on that soon.

 

[marsaday]

Cold hands is an indicator of lower thyroid. Ray Peats ProgestE oil will help improve thyroid function and so improve cold hands. I myself use it and it really helps my metabolism, but i am also a thyroid patient who uses T4.

ProgestE is progesterone and this is a great hormone to look into. Read Rays articles on it. It tends to be aimed at women as it is know as the female hormone, but men make progesterone too. We make roughly the same as a woman per day at 20mg, but women will make much more when pregnant or during the monthly cycle.

Men shouldn't use too much progesterone, so a max amount is about 10mg per day for a male. Younger males tend not to need it as much as older ones.

It is cheap at £35 a bottle and it will last for over 2 years at the rate you want to be using it. I would recommend just one drop per day which = 3mg progesterone. See how this feels. If you need more you can always go up to 2 drops per day, or 3 max. There are some threads about progesterone on here, specifically for men as well.

 

[Insomnia]

Cold hands is an indicator of lower thyroid. Ray Peats ProgestE oil will help improve thyroid function and so improve cold hands. I myself use it and it really helps my metabolism, but i am also a thyroid patient who uses T4.

ProgestE is progesterone and this is a great hormone to look into. Read Rays articles on it. It tends to be aimed at women as it is know as the female hormone, but men make progesterone too. We make roughly the same as a woman per day at 20mg, but women will make much more when pregnant or during the monthly cycle.

Men shouldn't use too much progesterone, so a max amount is about 10mg per day for a male. Younger males tend not to need it as much as older ones.

It is cheap at £35 a bottle and it will last for over 2 years at the rate you want to be using it. I would recommend just one drop per day which = 3mg progesterone. See how this feels. If you need more you can always go up to 2 drops per day, or 3 max. There are some threads about progesterone on here, specifically for men as well.

I'll take a look into that product. That's a good price actually.
Btw, wouldn't it be something to try and supplement just Preg as a standalone supplement? Isn't preg more friendly then progest, as in shouldn't I first try pregnenolone and if that doesn't kick in, then switch to progesterone? Or am I missing something here?

Greetings,

From the Netherlands.

 

[marsaday]

Preg is popular, but i found progesterone hands down better. Google the steroid hormone cascade. Preg is at the top of the chain and breaks down into many hormones. Progesterone is under it and doesn't break down into as many i think. Many report good results with preg BUT it seems a very small amount works or a large amount. So you can have issues finding a general amount to use consistently.

Progesterone has been much better for me and i still use it after 2 1/2 years successfully with a small dose.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Thanks, once again. I already have cut the dose today, so I am glad I actually have done so. I do have cold hands/feet at times, but nowhere near as it used to be. Are there perhaps other biological functions/vitamins that involve in controlling body heat/temperature? I mean, is there any other possible "disease/illness/malfunction" that could possibly explain cold hands/feet. I do have a low bodyfat, but I had cold hands/feet that were worse at 13% bodyfat. I am now at 5% and I feel better then I used to. I'll ask my doctor if he can prescribe me anything for the TSH, but first I'll wait and see if it comes down a little and then do another bloodtest.

Sure. There is a lot of talk on this forum about vitamins and minerals that act as thyroid surrogates. Some of the B Vitamins (I think B1 and B2), Magnesium, caffiene, and Methylene Blue are the ones that come to mind. I've noticed salt can also improve body temperature, too. And, as far as food goes, coconut oil is amazing, especially combined with some sort of carb source. If I cook potatoes in coconut oil, I get noticeably warmer quite quickly. Others have noticed body temp increases from lots of fructose containing sugar. I think Haidut mentioned he gets very hot if he drinks two cans of soda really quickly.

Another thing I've noticed that will warm up hands and feet is going for a ten minute walk. I think this helps my circulation. I've noticed that 80% of the time, thyroid will work for me. The other 20%, the walk will do it.

And two other things that you could try........ red light and surgical masks. This probably falls in the "WTF?!?" category, but both can work wonders. If you have a dedicated red or infrared light (usually LED, somewhere between 600-850nm), that will help warm you up, especially if you point it at your thyroid. Red light is discussed a lot on this forum. The surgical mask is a new one for me (I started a thread about it- Surgical Masks Increase Pulse, Lower Oxygen Saturation From Rebreathing CO2), but it helps you rebreathe CO2, which is a metabolic stimulant. It probably also keeps heat from being released through your breath. It's warmed my hands up within 10 minutes of wearing. A paper bag can also work, but I find the surgical masks super convienent. If you have access to dry ice, you could do a CO2 bath as well- Cheap And Easy Way To Do A Dry CO2 Bath

 

[Insomnia]

Preg is popular, but i found progesterone hands down better. Google the steroid hormone cascade. Preg is at the top of the chain and breaks down into many hormones. Progesterone is under it and doesn't break down into as many i think. Many report good results with preg BUT it seems a very small amount works or a large amount. So you can have issues finding a general amount to use consistently.

Progesterone has been much better for me and i still use it after 2 1/2 years successfully with a small dose.

I'll try both then and see what works best :)

Sure. There is a lot of talk on this forum about vitamins and minerals that act as thyroid surrogates. Some of the B Vitamins (I think B1 and B2), Magnesium, caffiene, and Methylene Blue are the ones that come to mind. I've noticed salt can also improve body temperature, too. And, as far as food goes, coconut oil is amazing, especially combined with some sort of carb source. If I cook potatoes in coconut oil, I get noticeably warmer quite quickly. Others have noticed body temp increases from lots of fructose containing sugar. I think Haidut mentioned he gets very hot if he drinks two cans of soda really quickly.

Another thing I've noticed that will warm up hands and feet is going for a ten minute walk. I think this helps my circulation. I've noticed that 80% of the time, thyroid will work for me. The other 20%, the walk will do it.

And two other things that you could try........ red light and surgical masks. This probably falls in the "WTF?!?" category, but both can work wonders. If you have a dedicated red or infrared light (usually LED, somewhere between 600-850nm), that will help warm you up, especially if you point it at your thyroid. Red light is discussed a lot on this forum. The surgical mask is a new one for me (I started a thread about it- Surgical Masks Increase Pulse, Lower Oxygen Saturation From Rebreathing CO2), but it helps you rebreathe CO2, which is a metabolic stimulant. It probably also keeps heat from being released through your breath. It's warmed my hands up within 10 minutes of wearing. A paper bag can also work, but I find the surgical masks super convienent. If you have access to dry ice, you could do a CO2 bath as well- Cheap And Easy Way To Do A Dry CO2 Bath

Actually, I was already going to order an infrared light through the RedLightMan site, but perhaps I should order the red light aswell. I was going to use the infrared one for sore muscles and stuff, and try out the red light later but perhaps I should just try them out both. I just hope they are worth their money XD, otherwise it's an expensive experiment.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Actually, I was already going to order an infrared light through the RedLightMan site, but perhaps I should order the red light aswell. I was going to use the infrared one for sore muscles and stuff, and try out the red light later but perhaps I should just try them out both. I just hope they are worth their money XD, otherwise it's an expensive experiment.

Yep, RLM is expensive, but his products are well worth it. I purchased the regular red, regular infrared, and the original combo bodylight, and love all of them. His products are badass, and really well built. He posts on the forum, and really knows quite a bit. His products are unique, too. He uses wavelengths that other manufactures don't. I'm a big fan, and his products are well worth the money.

By the way, I also own some cheaper red light products, and get decent results from them too, so the technology works well, regardless. But no one is producing better products (at the consumer level) than Red Light Man.