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Estrogen Like Symptoms From Gonadin

Hans

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Is it possible that when this supplements stimulate the production of Testosterone, although T is low to me and body turns T into Estrogen?
Or is it an unwonted reaction from effect on Progesterone? (soft muscles, low libido ...)
I also have the similar symptoms when I take oral or topical Vitamine D. But sun or tanning is good for me.

Ray told me:
Vitamin D would be better around 125 nmol/L, or a little more. When DHEA doesn’t increase heat production, it’s usually because thyroid and vitamin D are low. I think it’s good to keep the TSH around 0.4.

Vitamin D is one of the factors for Testosterone, but energy production is crucial, so thyroid has to be good, too. If you don’t get much sun exposure, it might take 5000 iu to optimize the vitamin D.
Diet is first and foremost important. Then you can add supplements. You can't out-supplement a bad diet like Cirion mentioned.
 

Ron J

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Highish protein intake, lots of carbs but make sure you're insulin sensitive, almost all your micros and vit D.
Thanks. What's your recommendation/opinion on protein, carbs and total calories? I'd definitely have to eat a lot of carbs/filler foods because the protein amount that many claim to be a lot seems like a small portion to me. Or maybe it's because I've been starving(cutting) for a while. For total calories I'm referring to the caloric needs for lean body weight and the amount of calories to add or subtract as you gain/lose.
 

Marko

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Diet is first and foremost important. Then you can add supplements. You can't out-supplement a bad diet like Cirion mentioned.
My diet is very good, but there are no way that I can get my hormones to normal and feel good...To have hard muscles, not to feel cold anymore and not to having problems with very low libido.
So I thought that Gonadin, CortiNon, Pansterone were good supplements for me, but they are not.
- I have low progesterone and low estradiol in labs, but I'm very obese in the area of buttocs and stomach, no gyno but have lipomastia, have cellulite...
-That's why I thought that CortiNon was good for such a situation, to throw Estrogen out from the tissue, but not, my symptoms are worse.
-I also have a low T, so I took Gonadin for it, but it also gives me bad symptoms.

I do not know why, but is this possible that Thyroid cause a problem, although my Thyroid hormones are not very bad?
 

Cirion

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My diet is very good, but there are no way that I can get my hormones to normal and feel good...To have hard muscles, not to feel cold anymore and not to having problems with very low libido.
So I thought that Gonadin, CortiNon, Pansterone were good supplements for me, but they are not.
- I have low progesterone and low estradiol in labs, but I'm very obese in the area of buttocs and stomach, no gyno but have lipomastia, have cellulite...
-That's why I thought that CortiNon was good for such a situation, to throw Estrogen out from the tissue, but not, my symptoms are worse.
-I also have a low T, so I took Gonadin for it, but it also gives me bad symptoms.

I do not know why, but is this possible that Thyroid cause a problem, although my Thyroid hormones are not very bad?

Can you describe your diet in more detail? Calories, macros, specific food choices...
 

Hans

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Thanks. What's your recommendation/opinion on protein, carbs and total calories? I'd definitely have to eat a lot of carbs/filler foods because the protein amount that many claim to be a lot seems like a small portion to me. Or maybe it's because I've been starving(cutting) for a while. For total calories I'm referring to the caloric needs for lean body weight and the amount of calories to add or subtract as you gain/lose.
For protein, 1.6g/kg/BW is a good start. If someone have a lot of fat mass, that number can rather be for fat free mass instead of bodyweight.
You can easily increase the dose to 2.2g/kg/BW if you want and even all the way to 300g. Studies showed that high dose protein, 4.4g/kg/BW, had no side effects.
For total calories, it depends on if you're bulking or cutting and how hard your training.
The best way to determine how much you need is to eat a certain amount of food to be weight stable and then increase or decrease calories from there.
If you want to add mass fast you must eat a lot of food, more than 500 calorie surplus, but doing so in a cyclic manner would probably be best.
For losing fat, 300-500 calories is a good start depending on how much body fat you have.
 

Cirion

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For protein, 1.6g/kg/BW is a good start. If someone have a lot of fat mass, that number can rather be for fat free mass instead of bodyweight.
You can easily increase the dose to 2.2g/kg/BW if you want and even all the way to 300g. Studies showed that high dose protein, 4.4g/kg/BW, had no side effects.
For total calories, it depends on if you're bulking or cutting and how hard your training.
The best way to determine how much you need is to eat a certain amount of food to be weight stable and then increase or decrease calories from there.
If you want to add mass fast you must eat a lot of food, more than 500 calorie surplus, but doing so in a cyclic manner would probably be best.
For losing fat, 300-500 calories is a good start depending on how much body fat you have.

Did these studies account for high Fernstrom ratio proteins? High protein absolutely causes me problems. I can go up to around 200 gram protein, but only if it is low fernstrom proteins (beef, gelatin). High fernstrom proteins (whey, cheese, milk...) bloat me like crazy, even on "calorie deficits". And if I over-do even low-fernstrom ratio proteins, I start to get ammonia symptoms (threshold for this for me seems to be around 250 gram protein) even from beef and gelatin.
 

Hans

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Did these studies account for high Fernstrom ratio proteins? High protein absolutely causes me problems. I can go up to around 200 gram protein, but only if it is low fernstrom proteins (beef, gelatin). High fernstrom proteins (whey, cheese, milk...) bloat me like crazy, even on "calorie deficits". And if I over-do even low-fernstrom ratio proteins, I start to get ammonia symptoms (threshold for this for me seems to be around 250 gram protein) even from beef and gelatin.
Most of these high protein intake studies is done with protein supplements, with whey being the most common. Sometimes it's casein too. Very few studies use real food or gelatin. Or actually no study uses gelatin as a main source of protein. I've seen a few studies on collagen that promote hypertrophy and fat loss, but we all know how good collagen/gelatin is :).
 

Marko

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Feb 12, 2018
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Diet is first and foremost important. Then you can add supplements. You can't out-supplement a bad diet like Cirion mentioned.
Hans,
My diet is very good, but there are no way that I can get my hormones to normal and feel good...To have hard muscles, not to feel cold anymore and not to having problems with very low libido.
So I thought that Gonadin, CortiNon, Pansterone were good supplements for me, but they are not.
- I have low progesterone and low estradiol in labs, but I'm very obese in the area of buttocs and stomach, no gyno but have lipomastia, have cellulite...
-That's why I thought that CortiNon was good for such a situation, to throw Estrogen out from the tissue, but not, my symptoms are worse.
-I also have a low T, so I took Gonadin for it, but it also gives me bad symptoms.

I do not know why, but is this possible that Thyroid cause a problem, although my Thyroid hormones are not very bad?
 

Hans

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2017
Messages
4,892
Hans,
My diet is very good, but there are no way that I can get my hormones to normal and feel good...To have hard muscles, not to feel cold anymore and not to having problems with very low libido.
So I thought that Gonadin, CortiNon, Pansterone were good supplements for me, but they are not.
- I have low progesterone and low estradiol in labs, but I'm very obese in the area of buttocs and stomach, no gyno but have lipomastia, have cellulite...
-That's why I thought that CortiNon was good for such a situation, to throw Estrogen out from the tissue, but not, my symptoms are worse.
-I also have a low T, so I took Gonadin for it, but it also gives me bad symptoms.

I do not know why, but is this possible that Thyroid cause a problem, although my Thyroid hormones are not very bad?
Well it can take a while to get all the estrogen out of the tissue, but it would be a good idea to get rid of the fat mass as it contains a significant amount of aromatase.
How much vit E are you using? It will work great to lower the aromatase, estrogen and prolactin.

As a side note acetylcholine is involved in muscle contraction, so maybe you are producing too little.
 

Marko

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Well it can take a while to get all the estrogen out of the tissue, but it would be a good idea to get rid of the fat mass as it contains a significant amount of aromatase.
How much vit E are you using? It will work great to lower the aromatase, estrogen and prolactin.

As a side note acetylcholine is involved in muscle contraction, so maybe you are producing too little.
I take TocoVit 10 drops topically, this is 375 IU vitamin E. I take it about 19h. Is it enough?
How can Acetylcholine be increase?
Yes, I would describe my condition as poor muscle contraction or hypotonia...
 
Last edited:

Marko

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Well it can take a while to get all the estrogen out of the tissue, but it would be a good idea to get rid of the fat mass as it contains a significant amount of aromatase.
How much vit E are you using? It will work great to lower the aromatase, estrogen and prolactin.

As a side note acetylcholine is involved in muscle contraction, so maybe you are producing too little.

Hans,
Is Choline, which can increase acetylcholine, promoted as a bad supplement here on the forum?
 

Hans

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I take TocoVit 10 drops topically, this is 375 IU vitamin E. I take it about 19h. Is it enough?
How can Acetylcholine be increase?
Yes, I would describe my condition as poor muscle contraction or hypotonia...
Androgens increases the release of acetylcholine which helps with muscle tone.
The topical vit E absorption isn't that great. Have you tried it orally?
Hans,
Is Choline, which can increase acetylcholine, promoted as a bad supplement here on the forum?
Choline has many important functions in the body and I'd rather advise to get it from food than a supplement. An excess of acetylcholine is bad, but consuming choline through food sources shouldn't lead to too high acetylcholine production or release.
 

Marko

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Androgens increases the release of acetylcholine which helps with muscle tone.
The topical vit E absorption isn't that great. Have you tried it orally?

Choline has many important functions in the body and I'd rather advise to get it from food than a supplement. An excess of acetylcholine is bad, but consuming choline through food sources shouldn't lead to too high acetylcholine production or release.
Mabye all of these supplements (Cortinon, Gonadin, Oxidal) work anticholinergic and for that is not good for me... it's very possible that my body producing too little acetylcholine and because and of that, I have more softer muscle with all these supplements ?
Poor muscle tone and soft muscles are my biggest problem.
 

A.R

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Oct 14, 2016
Messages
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Thanks for answer!

This is my labs for T3, T4 and other hormones that I did:
-T3 - 1.76 (ref. 1.10-2.70)
-T4 - 85.5 (ref. 58.0-161.0)
-Reverse T3: 165 pg/ml (90-215)
-PTH -19,7 ng/L (ref. 0-80)
-HDL - 0.95 (ref. >1.60) -always low
-LDL - 3.35 (ref. <3.40)
-Vitamin D -72.38 nmol/L
-Igf1 -126 (ref. 117-329)
-IgfBp3 -3.7 (ref. 3.5-7.6)
-HGH -0.02 --always low

I took:
-Pansterone-it gave me strength and my muscles were a bit stronger, but it raised my afternoon Cortisol to much and I felt very anxious.
-CortiNon - I feel warm, but I feel like I'm full of Estrogen and very very soft muscle, no tonus.
-Tribulus and Gonadin -same unwanted effects as with CortiNon and greater feeling of cold.
I was thinking about getting cortinon, but I'm reconsidering after your review. Thanks
 

Marko

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@Hans,
can you please clarify me about relationship Acetylcholine - Dopamine?
I think that's the cause of all my problems.
Doctor gave me a diagnosis -depression and I get Wellbutrin.
Doctor also said that my Depression is caused by a lack of dopamine, I also have high-normal acth, cortisol, prolactin.
Does increased Dopamine always lowers production of Acetylcholine?
I'm asking this because I have soft muscles without tonus.
Vitamin B with Choline is very great for me.
Now that I'm using Wellbutrin (dopamin agonist) for 7 days, but my tonus is worse and I feel colder.

Thanks
 

Hans

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@Hans,
can you please clarify me about relationship Acetylcholine - Dopamine?
I think that's the cause of all my problems.
Doctor gave me a diagnosis -depression and I get Wellbutrin.
Doctor also said that my Depression is caused by a lack of dopamine, I also have high-normal acth, cortisol, prolactin.
Does increased Dopamine always lowers production of Acetylcholine?
I'm asking this because I have soft muscles without tonus.
Vitamin B with Choline is very great for me.
Now that I'm using Wellbutrin (dopamin agonist) for 7 days, but my tonus is worse and I feel colder.

Thanks
Hey Marko.
Wellbutrin is an acetylcholine receptor antagonist and dopamine also inhibits acetylcholine release.

Acetylcholine-dopamine balance hypothesis in the striatum: an update. - PubMed - NCBI
"In Parkinson's disease, dopamine depletion blocks autoinhibition of acetylcholine release through muscarinic autoreceptors, leading to excessive acetylcholine release which eventually prunes spines of the indirect-pathway projection neurons of the striatum and thus interrupts information transfer from motor command centers in the cerebral cortex."

The boost in dopamine should help lower prolactin but should have only a mild effect on the ACTH. I'd rather focus directly on lowering the HPA axis.
Cortisol dysregulation plays a big role in depression as well.
 

Marko

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If we have a problem with low muscle tone and probably the problem can be low Acetylcholine (because all products that contain Choline help me a lot), is it good to raise the level of Acetylcholine?
And this is contrary to the production of Dopamine, which is very important for everything. Acetylcholin is antagonist of an Dopamine receptors.

But the issue with dopamine can get confusing as it may have opposite effects through the D1/D5 type receptors and the D2/D3/D4 type.
Activation of dopamine D1/D5 receptors enhance release of Acetylcholine.

That part confuses me.
 

Hans

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If we have a problem with low muscle tone and probably the problem can be low Acetylcholine (because all products that contain Choline help me a lot), is it good to raise the level of Acetylcholine?
And this is contrary to the production of Dopamine, which is very important for everything. Acetylcholin is antagonist of an Dopamine receptors.

But the issue with dopamine can get confusing as it may have opposite effects through the D1/D5 type receptors and the D2/D3/D4 type.
Activation of dopamine D1/D5 receptors enhance release of Acetylcholine.

That part confuses me.
I wonder if the reason choline works for you is because it stimulates catecholamine release which makes you feel more alert and energetic and warm, but then later on it increases GABA release (parasympathetic dominance) which might be already high like I mentioned earlier.
DHEA-S and pregnenolone-S are GABA antagonists, so raising them could also help with muscle tone.
 

Marko

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I probably have low GABA and I'm taking Clonazepam for 5 years and it suits me.

-Benzodiazepines and Alcohol increase GABA, make it more potent, or produce effects similar to increasing GABA.
-People that already have high levels of GABA may experience increased negative reactions to alcohol, barbiturates, benzodiazepines, or other GABA related substances...

I also react very well to Alcohol...my muscle tonus is excellent, always.
 

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