Possible Iron Overload

[Kingpinguin]

How was you serum copper+iron? If copper is high in the blood its artificially elevated ceruloplasmin that indicate inflammation.

Associations between serum C-reactive protein and serum zinc, ferritin, and copper in Guatemalan school children. - PubMed - NCBI

- ”CRP concentration was positively associated with ferritin and copper concentrations.”

CRP is a great marker for copper overload and its inflammatory effects. If your ceruloplasmin is good range and CRP are normal your copper status is under control.

 

[BigChad]

What nutrients can lower or help excrete iron without phlebotomy?

Zinc, copper , manganese deplete it. Calcium inhibits absorption, maybe just of non heme iron

 

[BigChad]

You can add copper or take copper after to get your levels up. I myself took higher zinc lowered my ferritin from 120 to 50 in just 1 1/2 month. I checked my ceruloplasmin aswell and it went down aswell close to low end. After I supplemented with both copper and retinol for 2 months and my ceruloplasmin was higher than before starting zinc but my ferritin was still low end. Aspirin, vitamin E likely depletes vitamin K. Its a consequence of higher doses of a nutrient. Your point is that IP-6 does not cause other mineral deficiencies than lower iron? IP-6 that you can find in the bran of grains are notorious for binding and chelating other minerals aswell such as copper and zinc. Not being offensive just pointing out that nutrients deplete other nutrients and good you brought it up so that people are aware of these things. High Vitamin D crashes magnesium and actually it also lowers vit A and ceruloplasmin aswell. The list goes on. But yeah good point

High zinc depletes and inhibits copper even if you supplement it. The metallothionen is not like vitamin a and d where you can just take more of one or other. Metallothionen is a protein film formed in the stomach that binds up the copper. Also vitamun A is needed to properly absorb the copper.

Does vitamin E actually lower iron? Where did you see that.

 

[Kingpinguin]

High zinc depletes and inhibits copper even if you supplement it. The metallothionen is not like vitamin a and d where you can just take more of one or other. Metallothionen is a protein film formed in the stomach that binds up the copper. Also vitamun A is needed to properly absorb the copper.

Does vitamin E actually lower iron? Where did you see that.

Like I said vitamin E lowering iron is from personal experience and also several other people on the forum reporting the same. Where did you find vitamin A actually increases copper absorption? I only knew it helps the liver synthesize ceruloplasmin like we already mentioned.
All I said in my previous post is that I depleted my iron with zinc on purpose. My ceruloplasmin levels did fall a little bit but by supplementing retinol and copper I managed to raise my ceruloplasmin to even higher levels than before using zinc so yes you can still take copper with zinc to counter the effect. Although metallothionine has high affinity for copper than zinc.

 

[Kingpinguin]

Zinc, copper , manganese deplete it. Calcium inhibits absorption, maybe just of non heme iron

Where did you find copper depletes iron? We know zinc does so but copper?
Should be the opposite since copper raises ferroxidase enzyme which is needed to absorb iron in the gut.

Unexpected role of ceruloplasmin in intestinal iron absorption. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[BigChad]

Where did you find copper depletes iron? We know zinc does so but copper?
Should be the opposite since copper raises ferroxidase enzyme which is needed to absorb iron in the gut.

Unexpected role of ceruloplasmin in intestinal iron absorption. - PubMed - NCBI

Several sites, i don't recall. Its needed to help utilize iron, without copper you could start storing iron in the wrong places. Maybe it depends on dosage.

I depleted my iron too low with zinc. Could be iron and copper. I actually became nearly anemic, blood test showed small red blood cell size even after 2 weeks supplementing iron. I saw ray saying iron destroys vitamin e and to take E away from iron. Do you know what mechanism E depletes iron by? I may have to wait a few months before implementing E.

Vitamin A,supposedly helps iron absorption and iron helps convert carotene to retinol. I didn't see anything regarding vitamin A increasing copper absorption, rather like you mentioned. If you take copper without vitamin A it wont be properly absorbed and you could get copper toxicity symptoms.

Also vitamin d3 lowers ceruloplasmin do you think 4500 to 5000 IU A per day is enough if taking 8700IU d3 a day at separate times

Are there any other nutrient interactions to be aware of as far as vitamins depleting minerals. So far i have d3 depleting A and ceruloplasmin, C depleting copper, zinx and calcium. D3 promotes calcium sodium, A promotes phosphorus magnesium potassium. K2 depletes calcium?

Im not sure with regards to k2, b1, and copper and vitamin a. K2 is needed to utilize calcium, b1 utilize manganese, copper for iron, vitamin a for copper yet it seems if you dose these too high they can deplete the mineral they are meant to help utilize?

 

[Kingpinguin]

Several sites, i don't recall. Its needed to help utilize iron, without copper you could start storing iron in the wrong places. Maybe it depends on dosage.

I depleted my iron too low with zinc. Could be iron and copper. I actually became nearly anemic, blood test showed small red blood cell size even after 2 weeks supplementing iron. I saw ray saying iron destroys vitamin e and to take E away from iron. Do you know what mechanism E depletes iron by? I may have to wait a few months before implementing E.

Vitamin A,supposedly helps iron absorption and iron helps convert carotene to retinol. I didn't see anything regarding vitamin A increasing copper absorption, rather like you mentioned. If you take copper without vitamin A it wont be properly absorbed and you could get copper toxicity symptoms.

Also vitamin d3 lowers ceruloplasmin do you think 4500 to 5000 IU A per day is enough if taking 8700IU d3 a day at separate times

Are there any other nutrient interactions to be aware of as far as vitamins depleting minerals. So far i have d3 depleting A and ceruloplasmin, C depleting copper, zinx and calcium. D3 promotes calcium sodium, A promotes phosphorus magnesium potassium. K2 depletes calcium?

Im not sure with regards to k2, b1, and copper and vitamin a. K2 is needed to utilize calcium, b1 utilize manganese, copper for iron, vitamin a for copper yet it seems if you dose these too high they can deplete the mineral they are meant to help utilize?

Everything you are saying is completely true. Zinc depletes iron and yes it can make you anemic. The topic of this thread is how to reduce iron. Zinc is very effective at this. It can also wreck havoc on copper through metallothionine like mentioned. Just like iron is for ferritin. Copper is for ceruloplasmin. Ceruloplasmin is made by your liver. Thats why animal livers are so high in copper. If you dont eat enough copper you will get low ceruloplasmin. Ceruloplasmin is actually called ferroxidase enzyme. As the name implies it is linked to iron homeostasis in a big way. If you dont have enoug ferroxidase (ceruloplasmin) your body cant deal with iron. Your body wants to store iron in the liver but without ceruloplasmin it cant so it will store it in other tissues like brain, heart, skin, testicles. This is what you mentioned and how it works. Ceruloplasmin is made up of many many copper molecules. But how does the liver synthesize ceruloplasmin once you have eaten copper? Thats where retinol (vitamin A) comes in. Retinol is needed to start the production and synthesis of ceruloplasmin. Another thing ceruloplasmin does is convert iron from Fe II to Fe III. This is how you absorb iron from food in the gut. Without ceruloplasmin you cant absorb iron. And ceruloplasmin levels are dependent on copper and retinol. So like you said this is how vitamin A and copper actually increases both iron absorption, utilization and safety of iron. Yes 100% agree with you that zinc can mess this up and thats really bad since iron is dangerous without proper handling (copper). This is also one way how vitamin D in high doses also can be bad. It lowers vitamin A. And vitamin A is needed for copper, ceruloplasmin and iron function.

 

[BigChad]

Everything you are saying is completely true. Zinc depletes iron and yes it can make you anemic. The topic of this thread is how to reduce iron. Zinc is very effective at this. It can also wreck havoc on copper through metallothionine like mentioned. Just like iron is for ferritin. Copper is for ceruloplasmin. Ceruloplasmin is made by your liver. Thats why animal livers are so high in copper. If you dont eat enough copper you will get low ceruloplasmin. Ceruloplasmin is actually called ferroxidase enzyme. As the name implies it is linked to iron homeostasis in a big way. If you dont have enoug ferroxidase (ceruloplasmin) your body cant deal with iron. Your body wants to store iron in the liver but without ceruloplasmin it cant so it will store it in other tissues like brain, heart, skin, testicles. This is what you mentioned and how it works. Ceruloplasmin is made up of many many copper molecules. But how does the liver synthesize ceruloplasmin once you have eaten copper? Thats where retinol (vitamin A) comes in. Retinol is needed to start the production and synthesis of ceruloplasmin. Another thing ceruloplasmin does is convert iron from Fe II to Fe III. This is how you absorb iron from food in the gut. Without ceruloplasmin you cant absorb iron. And ceruloplasmin levels are dependent on copper and retinol. So like you said this is how vitamin A and copper actually increases both iron absorption, utilization and safety of iron. Yes 100% agree with you that zinc can mess this up and thats really bad since iron is dangerous without proper handling (copper). This is also one way how vitamin D in high doses also can be bad. It lowers vitamin A. And vitamin A is needed for copper, ceruloplasmin and iron function.

zinc is also needed for vitamin A absorption in some way i believe.
Yes so what is the proper ratio with vitamin A and D. is 8700IU d3 a day, along with 5000Iu A a day okay. 15mg Mk4 3x a week, 1.5mg mk4/300mcg mk7 four times a week, and 3.5mg copper alongside 18mg iron and 22mg zinc, 4.3mg manganese, 150mcg molbydenum, 150mcg iodine, 150mcg selenium, 180mcg chromium all 4x a week.

The problem is copper alone will not raise ceruloplasmin right. You need vitamin A alongside the copper. How much vitamin A do you think is needed to utilize copper? Is it 1000IU of vitamin A alongside 1mg copper? So 3500 IU vitamin A per 3.5mg copper? Or is a lot more vitamin A needed to fully utilize 3.5mg copper. Foods in nature whether vegetables or animal based seem to have vitamin A alongside copper and iron. Liver and spinach for example. Folate is also present in high amounts in those foods.

Iron alone would not fix anemia either right. You'd need iron alongside copper, vitamin A, and b vitamins?

 

[Kingpinguin]

zinc is also needed for vitamin A absorption in some way i believe.
Yes so what is the proper ratio with vitamin A and D. is 8700IU d3 a day, along with 5000Iu A a day okay. 15mg Mk4 3x a week, 1.5mg mk4/300mcg mk7 four times a week, and 3.5mg copper alongside 18mg iron and 22mg zinc, 4.3mg manganese, 150mcg molbydenum, 150mcg iodine, 150mcg selenium, 180mcg chromium all 4x a week.

The problem is copper alone will not raise ceruloplasmin right. You need vitamin A alongside the copper. How much vitamin A do you think is needed to utilize copper? Is it 1000IU of vitamin A alongside 1mg copper? So 3500 IU vitamin A per 3.5mg copper? Or is a lot more vitamin A needed to fully utilize 3.5mg copper. Foods in nature whether vegetables or animal based seem to have vitamin A alongside copper and iron. Liver and spinach for example. Folate is also present in high amounts in those foods.

Iron alone would not fix anemia either right. You'd need iron alongside copper, vitamin A, and b vitamins?

From studies I’ve read getting copper increases ceruloplasmin. Getting it together with retinol is more effective. I know retinol and zinc plays a role together at least for things such as vision but never really heard that zinc is needed to absorb or make retinol. Its a fat-soulable vitamin so I believe fat is needed. If you have an iron deficiency from using zinc you should supplement iron and eat liver where you get retinol, copper etc aswell as iron imo. Iron has more functions than anemia which shows way before youre hemoglobin levels actually start to drop. Like fatigue, thyroid problems, brain fog and low dopamine. Iron supplementation by itself fixes this yes.

 

[BigChad]

From studies I’ve read getting copper increases ceruloplasmin. Getting it together with retinol is more effective. I know retinol and zinc plays a role together at least for things such as vision but never really heard that zinc is needed to absorb or make retinol. Its a fat-soulable vitamin so I believe fat is needed. If you have an iron deficiency from using zinc you should supplement iron and eat liver where you get retinol, copper etc aswell as iron imo. Iron has more functions than anemia which shows way before youre hemoglobin levels actually start to drop. Like fatigue, thyroid problems, brain fog and low dopamine. Iron supplementation by itself fixes this yes.

The zinc would deplete copper a bunch so wouldnt it be dangerous to supplement zinc for a year then supplement plain iron. Maybe the iron would be needed alongside A, b vitamins and copper so it doesn't get stored in soft tissues?

 

[Kingpinguin]

The zinc would deplete copper a bunch so wouldnt it be dangerous to supplement zinc for a year then supplement plain iron. Maybe the iron would be needed alongside A, b vitamins and copper so it doesn't get stored in soft tissues?

Ofc you need to have a well balanced diet of all nutrients. Vitamin A, copper and B-vitamins will help utilize iron and also help absorb it. From using B12, retinol and copper my hemoglobin went from 130 to 165 think lab range was something like 127-180. Drinking orange juice everyday for natural vitamin C is also helpful both in ceruloplasmin and helping minimize iron harm. Low dose vitamin E aswell around 100 IU i think would be beneficial since its very powerful at protecting tissue from iron but dose is still low enough to make you more anemic. I also made myself accidentally anemic and the thing that helped the most just to recover was taking the right dose of iron supplement. That was 200mg iron sulphate per day. From my experience being low iron is equally as bad as high iron. Low iron also contributes to damage to the heart, and lowers your antioxidant capabilities. Low iron also increases your risk for dementia. Its a vital mineral for your body and sure excess is not good but your body has its own system inplace protecting you from the damage of iron. If you eat healthy, exercise and you do have low iron supplementing with iron wont do you harm. You dont have to take zinc. I would focus on eating health getting as much of the discussed nutrients from your diet. If you supplement any take iron, 2mg copper, 5000-10 000 IU retinol, 100 IU vit E and maybe a B-complex. Magnesium is also another important mineral since its vital for transferrin protein production and that is also a major player in iron metabolism. But dont be to afraid of iron man. If you feel anemic symptoms still you need more iron along with a health diet. Iron for some people can be very hard to get enough off since its so tightly regulatedby the gut and liver.

 

[BigChad]

Ofc you need to have a well balanced diet of all nutrients. Vitamin A, copper and B-vitamins will help utilize iron and also help absorb it. From using B12, retinol and copper my hemoglobin went from 130 to 165 think lab range was something like 127-180. Drinking orange juice everyday for natural vitamin C is also helpful both in ceruloplasmin and helping minimize iron harm. Low dose vitamin E aswell around 100 IU i think would be beneficial since its very powerful at protecting tissue from iron but dose is still low enough to make you more anemic. I also made myself accidentally anemic and the thing that helped the most just to recover was taking the right dose of iron supplement. That was 200mg iron sulphate per day. From my experience being low iron is equally as bad as high iron. Low iron also contributes to damage to the heart, and lowers your antioxidant capabilities. Low iron also increases your risk for dementia. Its a vital mineral for your body and sure excess is not good but your body has its own system inplace protecting you from the damage of iron. If you eat healthy, exercise and you do have low iron supplementing with iron wont do you harm. You dont have to take zinc. I would focus on eating health getting as much of the discussed nutrients from your diet. If you supplement any take iron, 2mg copper, 5000-10 000 IU retinol, 100 IU vit E and maybe a B-complex. Magnesium is also another important mineral since its vital for transferrin protein production and that is also a major player in iron metabolism. But dont be to afraid of iron man. If you feel anemic symptoms still you need more iron along with a health diet. Iron for some people can be very hard to get enough off since its so tightly regulatedby the gut and liver.

doesnt vitamin c and citric acid lower ceruloplasmin? both in oranges/orange juice