Marxism And The New Age Progressive Movements

[Marvel]

Yeah, Mises is great to the elite and to persuade people that he defend freedom while he supports slavery and to convince people that monarchy is better than democracy, (evident, he loves a similar system) or that people should lose even more power by rejecting democracy. Power to the superior, rich people!
Mises endorses a monopolistic system.

History and actual societies tell otherwise.

Where are you getting your information from?

I think we agree that centralised power is bad but I don’t understand how you have come to the rest of your conclusions. It’s certainly not from reading Mises or other Austrian economists. Mises wasn’t pro-monarchy.

Monopolies may exist but without excessive government intervention there’s nothing stopping others coming in to compete.

Where are these communist societies that worked out so well?

If you’re a communist that means you don’t believe in private property, right? The only way to achieve that is to have a totalitarian government.

 

[MatheusPN]

Where are you getting your information from?

I think we agree that centralised power is bad but I don’t understand how you have come to the rest of your conclusions. It’s certainly not from reading Mises or other Austrian economists.

Monopolies may exist but without excessive government intervention there’s nothing stopping others coming in to compete.

Certainly we agree on that, centralization of: power, wealth is the problem and that, это is why capitalism is dangerous and why ancapism is one of its worst forms, even considering that in practice it would be closer to feudalism.
Where? Principally through the Mises institute, some quotes/ pages from their books, videos from the famous ancaps brasilianos, Ancap.Su and the other one who blocked me.

What would you expect from elitists? Most are clear that its normal and good to people be subjugated and conquered.

To know my view on ancapism/ australian school/ capitalism: Deliberation Makes People Consistently Selfish

"The narrative that competition and the rat race uplifts everyone is necessarily false, because the rats who climb to the top of the rope have every incentive to cut it behind them. Everything they value is offered as an incentive to keep everyone else from succeeding." -Caitlin Johnstone

 

[Marvel]

Certainly we agree on that, centralization of: power, wealth is the problem and that, это is why capitalism is dangerous and why ancapism is one of its worst forms, even considering that in practice it would be closer to feudalism.
Where? Principally through the Mises institute, some quotes/ pages from their books, videos from the famous ancaps brasilianos, Ancap.Su and the other one who blocked me.

What would you expect from elitists? Most are clear that its normal and good to people be subjugated and conquered.

To know my view on ancapism/ australian school/ capitalism: Deliberation Makes People Consistently Selfish

"The narrative that competition and the rat race uplifts everyone is necessarily false, because the rats who climb to the top of the rope have every incentive to cut it behind them. Everything they value is offered as an incentive to keep everyone else from succeeding." -Caitlin Johnstone

I suppose you believe that competition and self interest are products of indoctrination into a system rather than a fact of life and human nature? I of course think that whilst people can be many things, competition for resources and acting in one’s self interest is just basic reality.

The idea that you can create a society where everyone is socialised to be nice and collectivist is inevitably totalitarian, surely you can see that? Everyone would have to be trained to be this way.

Not to mention that it wouldn’t work regardless; people are how they are. It’s hopelessly idealistic IMO.

I think the real elitists are the ones who sell you some equalitarian fantasies in order to elevate their own positions in society, in the media, government or some crony capitalists, who I equally despise.

 

[MatheusPN]

If you’re a communist that means you don’t believe in private property, right? The only way to achieve that is to have a totalitarian government.

My answer is there, there's lots of misconceptions about communism, one is that you won't have any personal property hahahaah

I suppose you believe that competition and self interest are products of indoctrination into a system rather than a fact of life and human nature? I of course think that whilst people can be many things, competition for resources and acting in one’s self interest is just basic reality.

The idea that you can create a society where everyone is socialised to be nice and collectivist is inevitably totalitarian, surely you can see that? Everyone would have to be trained to be this way.

Not to mention that it wouldn’t work regardless; people are how they are. It’s hopelessly idealistic IMO.

I will be succinct.
Let's take a look at well-fed babies, one of the most hyperthyroid beings, see? RPF has a lot about it. How were the most anti-authoritarian societies? Likewise, RPF happens to have a very nice thread about it.
The real elitists? Rothbard and Mises as Hitler are the real elitists. @Marvel

 

[Marvel]

I will be succinct.
Let's take a look at well-fed babies, one of the most hyperthyroid beings, see? RPF has a lot about it. How were the most anti-authoritarian societies? Likewise, RPF happens to have a very nice thread about it.

I am not sure I follow what you’re implying, but to answer the question: I think people and societies living in their natural state, eating naturally organic food, living on the land etc. They don’t necessarily have to be uncivilised however, they could own land and do work.

Where we went wrong is when government gets involved and starts running the economy. It can appear to work for a bit but then the distortions start to show and the quality of food declines.

Maybe I do have misconceptions about what you’re promoting, I’m open to discussion. It seems clear to me you have misconceptions about me.

 

[MatheusPN]

I am not sure I follow what you’re implying, but to answer the question: I think people and societies living in their natural state, eating naturally organic food, living on the land etc. They don’t necessarily have to be uncivilised however, they could own land and do work.

Where we went wrong is when government gets involved and starts running the economy. It can appear to work for a bit but then the distortions start to show and the quality of food declines.

Maybe I do have misconceptions about what you’re promoting, I’m open to discussion. It seems clear to me you have misconceptions about me.

The elites are the ones who established a un-egalitatian, elitist/ hierarchical government. Ancapism is a form of government through capital/ force. Capitalism favors centralized power trough wealth centralization

 

[Marvel]

The elites are the ones who established a un-egalitatian, elitist/ hierarchical government. Ancapism is a form of government through capital/ power.

I never claimed I was an ancap.

I’m a minarchist, pretty libertarian but not absolutist. I think we need some laws and stuff to stop the worst ***t we could do to each other.

I see the biggest problems stemming from central banking, on a systemic level, rather than it being about some elite ruling class. If we got rid of the central banking system things would improve pretty rapidly IMO.

 

[Lollipop2]

If we got rid of the central banking system things would improve pretty rapidly IMO.

Oh to dream...wish it could ever be so...

 

[Marvel]

Oh to dream...wish it could ever be so...

Yeah it’s near impossible but mainly because so many people don’t realise how much of a problem it is. They largely think the issue is capitalism, but if you get rid of that you’d have nothing but the central bank.

 

[MatheusPN]

I never claimed I was an ancap.

I’m a minarchist, pretty libertarian but not absolutist. I think we need some laws and stuff to stop the worst ***t we could do to each other.

I see the biggest problems stemming from central banking, on a systemic level, rather than it being about some elite ruling class. If we got rid of the central banking system things would improve pretty rapidly IMO.

To be clear: I never said you were. As I affirmed, capitalism favors centralized power trough wealth centralization, a minarchist is just a dormant psycho controlling most of its Nukes/ force and wealth.
My system? Even I don't know the name of my system, lets call it the Matheus's system, a copy of Kropotkin together with Ray Peat inspiration.
@Marvel

You said that centralizated power is bad, but now you not only prefer capitalism you even are an minarchist!?

 

[Marvel]

To be clear: I never said you were.

OK. I still don’t understand how your system would work.

 

[Marvel]

To be clear: I never said you were. As I affirmed, capitalism favors centralized power trough wealth centralization, a minarchist is just a dormant psycho controlling most of its Nukes/ force and wealth.
My system? Even I don't know the name of my system, lets call it the Matheus's system, a copy of Kropotkin together with Ray Peat inspiration.
@Marvel

You said that centralizated power is bad, but now you not only favors capitalism you even are an minarchist!?

Yeah I suppose decentralised regional minarchic powers where people have democratic representative government to maintain a small structure to protect basic freedoms, something like that.

Capitalism only causes massively centralised wealth hoarding when big government supports that process. If you believe in private property, you believe in capitalism. If you don’t you must believe in big government to support the enforcement of the removal of property.

Krotopkin believed in the common ownership of the means of production. This is implausible without excessive government. It’s inevitably totalitarian as described above as would involve excessive force and indoctrination.

 

[michael94]

The problem here is the concept of central banking. Banks should exist in a state of market competition to offer superior services, not under an authoritarian hierarchy.

They won’t give up their power easily, however, and much we see follows from that. Once you understand this, conspiracy theories largely have little weight or drama. All systems / power structures seek to survive and grow. It’s not “tHe rOtHsChIlDs” as such.

State controlled money has a much better track record than State endorsed Private money.

You have this back to front. Capital is just property and is a natural right. It’s centralised power, government, central banking, that usurps, controls and manipulates the natural flow of capital in society.

Banks engaged in ponzi schemes and fractional lending before any central bank. A government is the best authority to protect its citizens from rent seeking parasites

 

[Marvel]

State controlled money has a much better track record than State endorsed Private money.

Banks engaged in ponzi schemes and fractional lending before any central bank. A government is the best authority to protect its citizens from rent seeking parasites

Sure some banks did but this is why you need a marketplace.

The Roman government debased its currency so I think governments have the most established place in this history.

 

[MatheusPN]

Yeah I suppose decentralised regional minarchic powers where people have democratic representative government to maintain a small structure to protect basic freedoms, something like that.

Capitalism only causes massively centralised wealth hoarding when big government supports that process. If you believe in private property, you believe in capitalism. If you don’t you must believe in big government to support the enforcement of the removal of property.

Adam Smith also would disagree with you. Criticizing your minarchism will be extense if you don't specify more, because it's vast, what philosophers/ ideologies you like?

Kropotkin believed in the common ownership of the means of production. This is implausible without excessive government. It’s inevitably totalitarian as described above as would involve excessive force and indoctrination.
Kropotkin believed in the common ownership of the means of production. This is implausible without excessive government. It’s inevitably totalitarian as described above as would involve excessive force and indoctrination.

Then you would say that the change from monarchy to democracy would be inevitably totalitarian and involve excessive force and indoctrination?

 

[michael94]

Sure some banks did but this is why you need a marketplace.

The Roman government debased its currency so I think governments have the most established place in this history.

Do you believe in the idea of State issued currency or do you believe that should be a free market decision?

 

[Marvel]

Adam Smith also would disagree with you. Criticizing your minarchism will be extense if you don't specify more, because it's vast, what philosophers/ ideologies you like?

Then you would say that the change from monarchy to democracy would be inevitably totalitarian and involve excessive force and indoctrination?

Well I’m not saying I have every detail worked out. I believe in small representative democratic government. The key thing is getting rid of the central banks.

 

[Marvel]

Do you believe in the idea of State issued currency or do you believe that should be a free market decision?

It can feasibly be either, but coming off the gold standard was the beginning of a lot of problems in the west. “Gold is money, everything else is credit.” - JP Morgan.

 

[michael94]

It can feasibly be either, but coming off the gold standard was the beginning of a lot of problems in the west. “Gold is money, everything else is credit.” - JP Morgan.

Gold is a commodity and a pretty useless one

 

[Marvel]

Gold is a commodity and a pretty useless one

It’s a store of value, unlike fiat currency which is inevitably debased by the issuing authority.