Low carb dieters look so much older

VendettaRed911

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Jessie

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You know some say the same thing about Ray Peat. Some people say the same thing about vegans.
Sure, Ray isn't some know it all. However I would be remissed if I didn't point out the fact Ray is an actual scientist with a phd in physiology. He also isn't out here making propaganda films for the public. If you consider Ray's message in it's entirety, it's not all that different from something you'll hear a mainstream biochemist say. Ray's message only becomes controversial when he starts talking about the essential fatty acids, and how a deficiency in these is actually good thing. Most mainstream scientists would disagree, and call that a fringe concept. But it's a far cry from "doctors" (chiropractors) endorsing low-carb diets due to some toxic intrinsic feature of sugar, despite the fact glucose is almost as central to life in the universe as carbon is. I would take low-carbers much more seriously if there wasn't so many "bros" and "not really a doctor" doctors in it
You know some say the same thing about Ray Peat. Some people say the same thing about vegans.



Of course it is. Everything has been hyper-politicized these days and politics ruins everything. Even the media and judicial system in the United States have been completely corrupted by politics to the point where civil rights don't exist in the United States anymore unless you agree with officially sanctioned propaganda.

As far as nutrition goes, part of the problem though is that the human body is complicated. Lots of discoveries have been made but how all the discoveries fit together in the massively complicated system called the human body still is not fully understood by science. So we shouldn't dismiss any positions out of hand. Good to follow all kinds of nutritional philosophies such as 80/10/10, Keto, Fruitarian, Carnivore, veganism, vegan keto, Atkins, forks-over-knives, etc... Once exposed to all the ideas out there, and individual can experiment and find out what works.
Perhaps, I won't argue this point. Fervently rejecting data just because of a knee-jerk reaction to something someone doesn't like is dumb. But I don't find it coincidental that bioenergetics can explain why people experience benefits from diets like carnivore and fruitarian, but at the same time can also explain why these diet trends aren't optimal, especially in the long term. Reasons such as this is why I'm convinced I'm on the right trail. Each individual has to come to their own conclusion about such things. Perceive, think, act.

Interesting, I wonder if the lack of carbs makes people more authoritarian like. I did notice I get cranky on low carb.
There could definitely be a connection. I know Ray has talked about serotonin and authoritarianism. But I think there's broader connotations at play here. A lot of this is background noise that's resonating from the culture war. Liberals associating meat eating with "toxic masculinity." Chuds identifying vegans as "soyboys." Stuff like this. But I think these things are more subtle background reactions, not the front lines of the culture war by any means. Front line stuff is more like this neurodiversity stuff you read about, or for the right-wingers stuff like Curtis Yarvin's "cathedral" crap.

I have a feeling that cortisol / adrenaline / noradrenaline helps mobilize fatty tissue to be utilized. It's why drugs that are stimulants in nature help with fat loss.
I think so. It's why insulin and adrenaline exist on a seesaw of sorts. When one goes up the other goes down. Insulin suppresses free fatty acids, adrenaline liberates them.
 

nomoreketones

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Sure, Ray isn't some know it all. However I would be remissed if I didn't point out the fact Ray is an actual scientist with a phd in physiology. He also isn't out here making propaganda films for the public. If you consider Ray's message in it's entirety, it's not all that different from something you'll hear a mainstream biochemist say. Ray's message only becomes controversial when he starts talking about the essential fatty acids, and how a deficiency in these is actually good thing.
I think Ray Peat's biggest controversy is the sterile gut idea. Ray Peat's case would make sense if the microbiome in the small intestine and large intestine only manufactured endotoxin. But that is not the case.

I agree that I wouldn't trust people who make propaganda films for the public. But this is a red herring in the context of this thread.

You can argue that Ray Peat has a phd in physiology and the keto people will argue that Dr. Stephen Phinney has a phd in nutritional biochemistry and metabolism from MIT. This is another red herring in my opinion.

Each individual has to come to their own conclusion about such things. Perceive, think, act.
Agreed. A healthy and rigorous exchange of ideas is very valuable but each individual needs to decide what is best for themselves. This is a huge challenge for me personally because there are so many contradictions in the nutritional world.


Reference:
 
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VendettaRed911

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Sure, Ray isn't some know it all. However I would be remissed if I didn't point out the fact Ray is an actual scientist with a phd in physiology. He also isn't out here making propaganda films for the public. If you consider Ray's message in it's entirety, it's not all that different from something you'll hear a mainstream biochemist say. Ray's message only becomes controversial when he starts talking about the essential fatty acids, and how a deficiency in these is actually good thing. Most mainstream scientists would disagree, and call that a fringe concept. But it's a far cry from "doctors" (chiropractors) endorsing low-carb diets due to some toxic intrinsic feature of sugar, despite the fact glucose is almost as central to life in the universe as carbon is. I would take low-carbers much more seriously if there wasn't so many "bros" and "not really a doctor" doctors in it

Perhaps, I won't argue this point. Fervently rejecting data just because of a knee-jerk reaction to something someone doesn't like is dumb. But I don't find it coincidental that bioenergetics can explain why people experience benefits from diets like carnivore and fruitarian, but at the same time can also explain why these diet trends aren't optimal, especially in the long term. Reasons such as this is why I'm convinced I'm on the right trail. Each individual has to come to their own conclusion about such things. Perceive, think, act.


There could definitely be a connection. I know Ray has talked about serotonin and authoritarianism. But I think there's broader connotations at play here. A lot of this is background noise that's resonating from the culture war. Liberals associating meat eating with "toxic masculinity." Chuds identifying vegans as "soyboys." Stuff like this. But I think these things are more subtle background reactions, not the front lines of the culture war by any means. Front line stuff is more like this neurodiversity stuff you read about, or for the right-wingers stuff like Curtis Yarvin's "cathedral" crap.


I think so. It's why insulin and adrenaline exist on a seesaw of sorts. When one goes up the other goes down. Insulin suppresses free fatty acids, adrenaline liberates them.
Yes, insulin suppresses lipolysis. And everything else you said is on point
 
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baccheion

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Yeah preciously. When the body becomes fat "adapted" it still needs glucose, so it'll either breakdown the muscle tissue the organism already has, or steal the proteins from the diet that would've otherwise went towards muscle protein synthesis. It seems like, even on the cell level, it's impossible to get ahead while eating low carb.
Is that need handled by the RDA amount of carbs?
 

nomoreketones

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Is that need handled by the RDA amount of carbs?
I think it's different for every person.

To find out we would need a good but cheap urine test that can measure urea and ammonia levels. The idea would be to start off at low carb level and slightly increase the amount of carbs eaten every day until the amonnia/urea levels level off and stop going down. Then maybe add an additional 25g or 50g on top of that for a margin of error and that would be a good minimum carb level for an individual.

Of course that individual can go way higher on the carbs if he/she has good glucose disposal.
 

VendettaRed911

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...you still don't want to understand that after an initial raise, cortisol comes back to perfectly normal values when you get fat adapted.
Jeff Volek did a clinical study who proves this (and proves also that there's absolutely no hormonal disturbances with a keto diet), and there's a few others proofs if you search.
I was 54 last year on this pic (no steroids if you ask, but Keto and IF 18h/day,and my testosterone levels were never as high, even when I was young), training with weights + sprints only about 3-4x/w, 30-45mn sessions, no more.
View attachment 23221
...no visible wrinkles on the face also, if you ask...
Look pretty good sir! Definitely fit and better than 99% of people in their 50s

My point was though they don't seem to look insanely youthful in the facial features, I am wondering if there is a drop off in hormones like pregnenolone, DHEA, etc. skin doesn't look vibrant and glowing. That may just be aging.

Here's Dr Joel Kahn (vegan dr.)...i think there is less sebum on low carb
1620097207198.png
 

JacobG

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I feel the discussion is a bit cherry picking. You can find great and terrible looking low an high carbers. I also believe you can be healthy and unhealthy on both approaches. There are much more factors than macro nutrients.
 

TheBeard

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Is it me or do the low carb gurus look significantly older?

Peter Attia, Joe Rogan, Mark Sisson, Gary Taubes, Shawn Baker

They all have one thing in common, their faces (and hairlines) look so much worse but they have shredded physiques.

Joe Rogan, it's because of the GH a d the PUFA oil in his TRT.
Sisson looks his age or less.
Peter Attia looks great.

I see no problem.

Try vegans if you're looking for old people.
 

Blossom

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Amongst other possible contributing factors it seems like once people get into very low carb territory they can become much more prone to dehydration which will wreck the appearance of youthful skin. I’m pretty low carb (not thrilled about this honestly) currently due to multiple food intolerances and if I do not drink at least 2.5 liters of water and pay close attention to electrolytes it shows quickly. Dissolving honey in my water and drinking it throughout the day has been a tremendous help in keeping me hydrated.
 

JacobG

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@Blossom On keto the fat hydrates you. It is a common mistake that people drink a lot on keto. You barely need water unless you sweat a lot. I think drinking so much on keto is even counterproductive as you lose minerals.

Appearance of course changes without the water weight.
 

OccamzRazer

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@Blossom On keto the fat hydrates you. It is a common mistake that people drink a lot on keto. You barely need water unless you sweat a lot. I think drinking so much on keto is even counterproductive as you lose minerals.

Appearance of course changes without the water weight.
In theory I agree with you.

Many low-carbers look very dehydrated, however, especially in the face, which is what Blossom seems to have noticed.

A dehydrated body might look ripped...but a dehydrated face just looks stress and aged.
 

Blossom

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@Blossom On keto the fat hydrates you. It is a common mistake that people drink a lot on keto. You barely need water unless you sweat a lot. I think drinking so much on keto is even counterproductive as you lose minerals.

Appearance of course changes without the water weight.
Yes, it’s a controversial subject amongst people on carnivore which is more what I was referring to so I should have been specific. I’ve never done keto per say and just ended up being mostly carnivore a couple years ago after getting tired of recurring GI and other issues. I’m one who does best with mainly meat (& some dairy/eggs). You’re right about the fat of course which is key. Perhaps age and hormones play a role too. I just know for me I have to be mindful of fluid and electrolytes especially during the time when I’m on progesterone.
 

Jessie

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FWIW I'm pretty sure that picture of Mark Sisson is dated, like, very dated. I remember that picture of him back on his MDA blog like in 2013 or 2014. He has recently appeared on Joe Rogan's podcast and he looks considerably older.
 
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