Illness (endotoxin) makes body odor unpleasant, may lead to social shunning

[haidut]

The study below demonstrated something most of us have known intuitively since childhood. Namely, sick people not only look sick, but they also smell "sick". While this has already been established scientifically for people with terminal diseases (e.g. cancer, which increases body levels of foul-smelling putrescine and cadaverine), so far had not been demonstrated in relatively healthy people or people with more benign conditions. Just a day ago I did a post on Parkinson Disease (PD) being caused through activation of the endotoxin/LPS receptors (TLR) by damaged mitochondria floating around in the blood. It just so happens that there have been several studies already demonstrating that specially trained dogs can reliable distinguish between healthy controls and people with PD, based on smell alone. Now, the study below corroborates all of those studies and demonstrates that elevated endotoxin/LPS alone is enough to trigger a change in bod odor, which even humans (with olfactory sensitivity much worse than canines) can reliably detect, rating it as very unpleasant/disgusting, and leading to the social avoidance (isolation) of such people. Btw, most doctors dismiss endotoxin/LPS as something of concern only for people with liver failure, and even then they don't believe it can cause serious problems. So, aside from corroborating our intuitive knowledge, another benefit of this study is that it confirms even minor elevations of endotoxin/LPS in the blood can cause systemic inflammation even in healthy people, with dire consequences not only for their body odor, but their systemic health as well.

Human scent as a first-line defense against disease - Scientific Reports

Express Healthcare Management -

www.expresshealthcaremgmt.com

"...A new study has found that individuals who are sick may emit different body odor compared to when they are healthy. Researchers tested whether experimental activation of the immune system in healthy individuals could make their body odor more aversive. Participants who received an endotoxin injection to create systemic inflammation were found to have a more unpleasant body odor compared to those who received a placebo. Analysis of the body odor samples indicated qualitative changes in the volatile components, rather than quantitative changes. These findings suggest that odor cues of inflammation in sweat can be detected just a few hours after immune system activation, potentially triggering behavioral avoidance to protect against pathogens."

"...Furthermore, gas chromatography-mass spectrometry analysis revealed qualitative changes in the volatile substances of the body odor samples from the endotoxin group. This indicates that the qualitative composition of body odor can change as a result of immune system activation. These findings support the hypothesis that inflammation-related odor cues in axillary sweat can be detected shortly after immune system activation, potentially triggering behavioral avoidance to protect against infected individuals. Further research is needed to understand the specific volatile compounds that contribute to the aversive perception of body odor during sickness."

 

[Vileplume]

Isn't this along the same lines as pheromones? The idea that we can intuitively detect a person's health and hormonal status through their smell.

 

[haidut]

Isn't this along the same lines as pheromones? The idea that we can intuitively detect a person's health and hormonal status through their smell.

Yep, and even though the study did not measure it, I am sure the endotoxin injection raised their estrogen and cortisol levels too and those are known to be repulsive in high amounts, and are widely recognized as pheromones.
Kissing is another universal human behavior whose function/purpose is likely akin to smelling - i.e. people can taste each other's health and even immune-system compatibility.

Major histocompatibility complex - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[learnedhelpless]

I used to live in a mold ridden house for 3 months. Like a crazy amount of mold. I started a new job, and for the first time ever, there were multiple complaints that I smelt. I had never got these complaints, before this ever.

Screenshot here is a photo of the mold if anyone is interested

I had a full hygiene routine, showered twice a day, brushed my teeth, used deodorant, quit smoking etc. For months on end, the smelt persisted, and I continued to get these complaints and was nearly fired. I suspect the mold, had increased endotoxin in my body like crazy and gave me that bad scent.

 

[ecstatichamster]

super interesting, Thanks @haidut

 

[Mauritio]

The study below demonstrated something most of us have known intuitively since childhood. Namely, sick people not only look sick, but they also smell "sick". While this has already been established scientifically for people with terminal diseases (e.g. cancer, which increases body levels of foul-smelling putrescine and cadaverine), so far had not been demonstrated in relatively healthy people or people with more benign conditions. Just a day ago I did a post on Parkinson Disease (PD) being caused through activation of the endotoxin/LPS receptors (TLR) by damaged mitochondria floating around in the blood. It just so happens that there have been several studies already demonstrating that specially trained dogs can reliable distinguish between healthy controls and people with PD, based on smell alone. Now, the study below corroborates all of those studies and demonstrates that elevated endotoxin/LPS alone is enough to trigger a change in bod odor, which even humans (with olfactory sensitivity much worse than canines) can reliably detect, rating it as very unpleasant/disgusting, and leading to the social avoidance (isolation) of such people. Btw, most doctors dismiss endotoxin/LPS as something of concern only for people with liver failure, and even then they don't believe it can cause serious problems. So, aside from corroborating our intuitive knowledge, another benefit of this study is that it confirms even minor elevations of endotoxin/LPS in the blood can cause systemic inflammation even in healthy people, with dire consequences not only for their body odor, but their systemic health as well.

Human scent as a first-line defense against disease - Scientific Reports

Express Healthcare Management -

www.expresshealthcaremgmt.com

"...A new study has found that individuals who are sick may emit different body odor compared to when they are healthy. Researchers tested whether experimental activation of the immune system in healthy individuals could make their body odor more aversive. Participants who received an endotoxin injection to create systemic inflammation were found to have a more unpleasant body odor compared to those who received a placebo. Analysis of the body odor samples indicated qualitative changes in the volatile components, rather than quantitative changes. These findings suggest that odor cues of inflammation in sweat can be detected just a few hours after immune system activation, potentially triggering behavioral avoidance to protect against pathogens."

"...Furthermore, gas chromatography-mass spectrometry analysis revealed qualitative changes in the volatile substances of the body odor samples from the endotoxin group. This indicates that the qualitative composition of body odor can change as a result of immune system activation. These findings support the hypothesis that inflammation-related odor cues in axillary sweat can be detected shortly after immune system activation, potentially triggering behavioral avoidance to protect against infected individuals. Further research is needed to understand the specific volatile compounds that contribute to the aversive perception of body odor during sickness."

In german you use the saying "I cant smell that person" as " I dont like that person" ...

I read a book where someone worked with lower class people, often people with drug problems and she said that they all had a similar smell, called the " the smell of the unemployable", which persistet even after they showered. I immediately thought of this as a reflection of their bad internal health. Apprently the smell was really bitter and harsh.

The kissing explanation makes sense, youd want to make sure youre metabollicaly compatible with someone before reproduncing with them.

 

[animalcule]

I used to live in a mold ridden house for 3 months. Like a crazy amount of mold. I started a new job, and for the first time ever, there were multiple complaints that I smelt. I had never got these complaints, before this ever.

Screenshot here is a photo of the mold if anyone is interested

I had a full hygiene routine, showered twice a day, brushed my teeth, used deodorant, quit smoking etc. For months on end, the smelt persisted, and I continued to get these complaints and was nearly fired. I suspect the mold, had increased endotoxin in my body like crazy and gave me that bad scent.

Yea I also lived in mold (still do, but less), and I felt like I was treated by some people like a leper for no reason. Could have been any number of things, I’m sure I give off all sorts of bad social/status clues, but although no one would ever mention it to me, and despite showering and deodorant, I always wondered if I just emitted some repellant odor.

 

[learnedhelpless]

Yea I also lived in mold (still do, but less), and I felt like I was treated by some people like a leper for no reason. Could have been any number of things, I’m sure I give off all sorts of bad social/status clues, but although no one would ever mention it to me, and despite showering and deodorant, I always wondered if I just emitted some repellant odor.

Yeah, clothes also start smelling like it as well. I hope everything is okay for you.

 

[animalcule]

Yeah, clothes also start smelling like it as well. I hope everything is okay for you.

Thanks, you as well.

I’m doing better, somewhat functional at least. Taking cholestyramine but not long enough to see if it’s had an effect. Cleaning up the mold I could see helped somewhat. Now there’s just the stuff I can’t see. Hopefully I’ll move soon.

 

[learnedhelpless]

Thanks, you as well.

I’m doing better, somewhat functional at least. Taking cholestyramine but not long enough to see if it’s had an effect. Cleaning up the mold I could see helped somewhat. Now there’s just the stuff I can’t see. Hopefully I’ll move soon.

I had no idea, there was medication for mold. I should of know this half a year ago. Maybe create a thread about it, when you think you have taken it long enough, it sounds intriguing. I no longer live in a mold ridden environment, but I think a lot of people sadly do.

 

[PopSocket]

Many people are "full of crap" but in the literal sense with colon and rectum overflowing with very old decaying poop. It is poisoning the blood constantly causing rapid aging and stuff.

Got a close friend - a doctor of internal diseases medicine who did his own illegal research opening up dead people back in the 70s and 80s to figure out what actually went wrong and he is manic about keeping the gut clean and the colon moving. He was advocating in his private practice drinking alcohol on empty stomach with water in 10% concentration to sterilize the gut and daily shallow water based rectal enema after the toilet using children enema balloon to get the remaining stuff out /without water entering the colon as this leads into issues/.

The primary goal was to "not smell like a human" as per his words and to have extremely pink skin all over the body showing proper blood flow and RBC health. Many of his clients look 10-20 years younger for their age even though they consume too much alcohol imho and maybe will run into problems later on. None of them smell bad or have bad breath even though they all drink and smoke ciggaretes 24/7.

 

[Jackson Chung]

Many people are "full of crap" but in the literal sense with colon and rectum overflowing with very old decaying poop. It is poisoning the blood constantly causing rapid aging and stuff.

Got a close friend - a doctor of internal diseases medicine who did his own illegal research opening up dead people back in the 70s and 80s to figure out what actually went wrong and he is manic about keeping the gut clean and the colon moving. He was advocating in his private practice drinking alcohol on empty stomach with water in 10% concentration to sterilize the gut and daily shallow water based rectal enema after the toilet using children enema balloon to get the remaining stuff out /without water entering the colon as this leads into issues/.

The primary goal was to "not smell like a human" as per his words and to have extremely pink skin all over the body showing proper blood flow and RBC health. Many of his clients look 10-20 years younger for their age even though they consume too much alcohol imho and maybe will run into problems later on. None of them smell bad or have bad breath even though they all drink and smoke ciggaretes 24/7.

Very very interesting. Would surviving off juice not be a bad idea then? It would significantly eliminatee these issues in the gut don't you think as its absorbed so easily?

Can you post a bit more about what he found?

Is this why exercise isn't too good for you? Too much exercise would open up that barrier no?

Interesting observation. My cousin is ~35? He exercises a LOT and has the standard diet (that I know of). He has a good job (Engineer) so isn't stressed or anything. When we were younger I noticed he went to the bathroom once a week and his poops SMELLED. I went 1-2 times a day and mine didn't smell (at least i don't think so?).

Fast forward 15 years, he went from being fit and decent looking in high school to being obese, ugly and balding by 35. I went from being skinny to muscular to muscular without definition (stopped exercising due to maritial issues) to now being muscular with good definitiion again at 32 after my divorce. I was 153 lbs in high school (worked out everyday in the gym for 90 min a day) and a size 30 pant size and now I am 165 and work out 10 minutes a day following Peat princciples and still size 30. No health issues and hair is about the same (thinned a little when I was 18 due to shampoooing 3x a day but has maintained after stopping), still woulld consideer myseelf a NW1.5 and decent density (top 25% for my age?).

When I was younger my bones were strong (Mom made us drink 4 glasses of milk everyday lol), I would jump off 12-13 feet high things and my bones weree fine lol. Well at 32 I jumped off a ladder thhat was 7 feet and I was fine again lol. Peat principles do work.

Peat is right, eat less solid food. Keep endotoxin low.

 

[PopSocket]

Very very interesting. Would surviving off juice not be a bad idea then? It would significantly eliminatee these issues in the gut don't you think as its absorbed so easily?

Can you post a bit more about what he found?

He found what Ray Peat was talking about - that many diseases start from the gut due to a very dirty system and bacteria growing inside and causing all sorts of problems hence the ethanol + water method. "Nothing grows in an ethanol solution" his words. It is a bit too "Russian" for my taste even though I am aware ethanol has been proven to extend the lifespan in many species, sometimes more than double. I no longer do it even though it "works" but I can think of several issues with this method one of them being thiamine malabsorption, estrogen and cortisol also come to mind.

I made a mistake in the previous post by saying 10%, it is 1:10 vodka:water which is 4-5%. So around 150ml vodka(maybe ~200ml) in 1.5l water and you carry this around with you all the time and sip :-D Never after food is the rule. The stomach must be empty which leaves space for only 2 meals - 1 pretty big and 4h later a second one consisting of mainly fruit/to form proper poop/ and sugar. For the rest of the time 12-16h ethanol acts as the energy source. After sleep coffee + ciggarete for peristalsis stimulation , rectal water enema and repeat.

 

[animalcule]

I had no idea, there was medication for mold. I should of know this half a year ago. Maybe create a thread about it, when you think you have taken it long enough, it sounds intriguing. I no longer live in a mold ridden environment, but I think a lot of people sadly do.

Cholestyramine is typically used as a cholesterol med, but it is antifungal in that it binds toxins in your blood and you excrete them in your stool.

Look into the Shoemaker protocol for Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. I’m not following the protocol exactly, just taking this med. His protocol is for ppl reacting to mold from living in water damaged buildings.

I’ll make a post if I ever make significant improvement.

 

[animalcule]

He found what Ray Peat was talking about - that many diseases start from the gut due to a very dirty system and bacteria growing inside and causing all sorts of problems hence the ethanol + water method. "Nothing grows in an ethanol solution" his words. It is a bit too "Russian" for my taste even though I am aware ethanol has been proven to extend the lifespan in many species, sometimes more than double. I no longer do it even though it "works" but I can think of several issues with this method one of them being thiamine malabsorption, estrogen and cortisol also come to mind.

I made a mistake in the previous post by saying 10%, it is 1:10 vodka:water which is 4-5%. So around 150ml vodka(maybe ~200ml) in 1.5l water and you carry this around with you all the time and sip :-D Never after food is the rule. The stomach must be empty which leaves space for only 2 meals - 1 pretty big and 4h later a second one consisting of mainly fruit/to form proper poop/ and sugar. For the rest of the time 12-16h ethanol acts as the energy source. After sleep coffee + ciggarete for peristalsis stimulation , rectal water enema and repeat.

Has he written anything about this online?

It’s interesting you mention it as very Russian. Someone else made a post about an Eastern European Dr advising his girlfriend to drink Rakia (sp) on an empty stomach every morning, IIRC. Definitely not advice you’d find from a western doc!

As far as personal experiments go, I might consider trying a shot of vodka/brandy in the morning haha… but all day sipping?

At this point I feel prepared to jump back into weird (but at worst harmless) diet experiments. Would be interested to read more.

 

[Jackson Chung]

He found what Ray Peat was talking about - that many diseases start from the gut due to a very dirty system and bacteria growing inside and causing all sorts of problems hence the ethanol + water method. "Nothing grows in an ethanol solution" his words. It is a bit too "Russian" for my taste even though I am aware ethanol has been proven to extend the lifespan in many species, sometimes more than double. I no longer do it even though it "works" but I can think of several issues with this method one of them being thiamine malabsorption, estrogen and cortisol also come to mind.

I made a mistake in the previous post by saying 10%, it is 1:10 vodka:water which is 4-5%. So around 150ml vodka(maybe ~200ml) in 1.5l water and you carry this around with you all the time and sip :-D Never after food is the rule. The stomach must be empty which leaves space for only 2 meals - 1 pretty big and 4h later a second one consisting of mainly fruit/to form proper poop/ and sugar. For the rest of the time 12-16h ethanol acts as the energy source. After sleep coffee + ciggarete for peristalsis stimulation , rectal water enema and repeat.

Why not eat one meal a day and drink juice/milk for the other meals? Also carrots? I would guess as long as food is “flowing” and sweeping everything away we should be good no?

There are a lot of things that kill bacteria. Like garlic for example. With the ethanol, are we sure it isn’t absorbed before it reaches the lower bowels?

Also I thought I’d mention. I knew a lady with stage 4 lung cancer that had spread. She took hemp oil, but as an enema. I think this is what killed a lot of the bacteria and probably eliminated the endotoxin which suppressed respiration and her immune system. The lung cancer went away lol.

Your friend is definitely right. But I question good methods. Just thinking out loud here and don’t try this as it may be dangerous, but an ethanol enema may be if some use lol. My only concerrn with bacteria is that killing them might lead to the bad species taking over. So its good to err on the side of caution. Also what about biofilms? did your friend come across those? From my understanding they can make bacteria rresistant to many things. Thus antibiotics have to be taken with biofilm busters (enzymes).

Shall we not forget that Max Gerson advocated drinking fruit juices (no fats/solid food) and enemas. The Budwig diet also had something similar and I've heard some success stories there as well (though I question the PUFA/omega 3 and cottage cheese thing).

 

[PopSocket]

Has he written anything about this online?

Nothing online. He doesn't even own a smartphone. He is quite rich, owns big hotel in a mountain resort but lives like a bum. 1 old radio, 1 old TV set and lots of candles is how far the technology goes into his life.

Your friend is definitely right. But I question good methods. Just thinking out loud here and don’t try this as it may be dangerous, but an ethanol enema may be if some use lol. My only concerrn with bacteria is that killing them might lead to the bad species taking over. So its good to err on the side of caution. Also what about biofilms? did your friend come across those? From my understanding they can make bacteria rresistant to many things. Thus antibiotics have to be taken with biofilm busters (enzymes).

Eating one solid meal for the day and then mainly juices makes total sense to keep the digestive tract free from rotting and fermentation products. I guess good thyroid function is also key.

Peat offers a good arsenal of things to try - the carrot salad is damn powerful, antibiotics and I think methylene blue as a water purifier/disinfectant is also very good to keep the bacteria and other germs in check. I already got some experience with it and it seems to work great at higher dosages especially with red light/ I am very very cautious about this combo, many conflicting opinions on this, Ray was not a fan!/.

In regards to ethanol based enema I would not do it personally as it can dehydrate the rectum walls. I guess. Never tried it.

But what I've tried is 2ml 3000ppm Chlorine dioxide in 200ml of water and put directly into the already cleansed rectum for 3-5mins. Cleans everything damn well and enters the bloodstream as if it was IV. Chlorine dioxide dissolves biofilms extremely well/ this is what they use it for in water treatment plants/ and in many studies it is the best antiseptic even compared to some really dangerous ones. It is widely used in Germany to disinfect the milk production systems as even some of it remains, it does not have negative health consequences and does not cause bad taste/smell of the milk.

Even though I am a big fan of it, I would be cautious with long term use. Not enough studies. But it does reliably remove body odor and cleanse the gut when taken orally/i bet much better than ethanol/ and from all the studies I've read it does not seem to have serious negative health effects in adults. It never caused me problems as well as other people I know and many people online, usually the worst case scenario is it does not help the issue. But again the science is not really there. For short term use here and there it is awesome imo and a great tool.

Seems like substances that have the capacity to purify water can potentially have a massive benefit for our system.

 

[learnedhelpless]

Nothing online. He doesn't even own a smartphone. He is quite rich, owns big hotel in a mountain resort but lives like a bum. 1 old radio, 1 old TV set and lots of candles is how far the technology goes into his life.

Eating one solid meal for the day and then mainly juices makes total sense to keep the digestive tract free from rotting and fermentation products. I guess good thyroid function is also key.

Peat offers a good arsenal of things to try - the carrot salad is damn powerful, antibiotics and I think methylene blue as a water purifier/disinfectant is also very good to keep the bacteria and other germs in check. I already got some experience with it and it seems to work great at higher dosages especially with red light/ I am very very cautious about this combo, many conflicting opinions on this, Ray was not a fan!/.

In regards to ethanol based enema I would not do it personally as it can dehydrate the rectum walls. I guess. Never tried it.

But what I've tried is 2ml 3000ppm Chlorine dioxide in 200ml of water and put directly into the already cleansed rectum for 3-5mins. Cleans everything damn well and enters the bloodstream as if it was IV. Chlorine dioxide dissolves biofilms extremely well/ this is what they use it for in water treatment plants/ and in many studies it is the best antiseptic even compared to some really dangerous ones. It is widely used in Germany to disinfect the milk production systems as even some of it remains, it does not have negative health consequences and does not cause bad taste/smell of the milk.

Even though I am a big fan of it, I would be cautious with long term use. Not enough studies. But it does reliably remove body odor and cleanse the gut when taken orally/i bet much better than ethanol/ and from all the studies I've read it does not seem to have serious negative health effects in adults. It never caused me problems as well as other people I know and many people online, usually the worst case scenario is it does not help the issue. But again the science is not really there. For short term use here and there it is awesome imo and a great tool.

Seems like substances that have the capacity to purify water can potentially have a massive benefit for our system.

They have to reach the small intestine though, right? As that is where the majority of the bacteria is?

 

[Jackson Chung]

Nothing online. He doesn't even own a smartphone. He is quite rich, owns big hotel in a mountain resort but lives like a bum. 1 old radio, 1 old TV set and lots of candles is how far the technology goes into his life.

Eating one solid meal for the day and then mainly juices makes total sense to keep the digestive tract free from rotting and fermentation products. I guess good thyroid function is also key.

Peat offers a good arsenal of things to try - the carrot salad is damn powerful, antibiotics and I think methylene blue as a water purifier/disinfectant is also very good to keep the bacteria and other germs in check. I already got some experience with it and it seems to work great at higher dosages especially with red light/ I am very very cautious about this combo, many conflicting opinions on this, Ray was not a fan!/.

In regards to ethanol based enema I would not do it personally as it can dehydrate the rectum walls. I guess. Never tried it.

But what I've tried is 2ml 3000ppm Chlorine dioxide in 200ml of water and put directly into the already cleansed rectum for 3-5mins. Cleans everything damn well and enters the bloodstream as if it was IV. Chlorine dioxide dissolves biofilms extremely well/ this is what they use it for in water treatment plants/ and in many studies it is the best antiseptic even compared to some really dangerous ones. It is widely used in Germany to disinfect the milk production systems as even some of it remains, it does not have negative health consequences and does not cause bad taste/smell of the milk.

Even though I am a big fan of it, I would be cautious with long term use. Not enough studies. But it does reliably remove body odor and cleanse the gut when taken orally/i bet much better than ethanol/ and from all the studies I've read it does not seem to have serious negative health effects in adults. It never caused me problems as well as other people I know and many people online, usually the worst case scenario is it does not help the issue. But again the science is not really there. For short term use here and there it is awesome imo and a great tool.

Seems like substances that have the capacity to purify water can potentially have a massive benefit for our system.

Brilliant on Chlorine Dioxide. 100%. agree with you there. Good idea on the rectum. It seems the storiies of it curing cancer now have a mechaniism dont yyou think? Reducing bacterial toxins seems logical to cure cancer.

What do you think about electrormagnetic anti microbial? Beck Magnetic pulser comes to mind.

Hydrogen Peroxide is another one (though be careful). I used it on a biofilm on my faucet, bubbles on contact and dissolves it.

 

[sunny]

Cholestyramine is typically used as a cholesterol med, but it is antifungal in that it binds toxins in your blood and you excrete them in your stool.

Look into the Shoemaker protocol for Chronic Inflammatory Response Syndrome. I’m not following the protocol exactly, just taking this med. His protocol is for ppl reacting to mold from living in water damaged buildings.

I’ll make a post if I ever make significant improvement.

Jodelle focused a few of her podcasts on Mold after having this problem. Maybe she has some info that may help.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi0Hx4n79Lw