Dr Tom Cowan on the role of Keto diet and ATP to restore the cell's structured water (gel) properties to cure cancer

[Elie]

I'd like to get your thoughts on Dr. Cowan's view on cancer and how to heal it.

I recently listened to a Podcast interview of Dr. Tom Cowan with one of the Weston A Price People.
Some of you might be familiar with him.
A significant part of his view on health and disease is based on work of Gilbert Ling, who Peat had referred to a lot, i.e. the presence of structured water (gel-like environment) in the cells .

Let me summarize his main points

- Water in cells exists in gel like form due to the unfolded state of certain protein and the charge differential in and out of the cells.

- Cells are kept at an ideal distance from one another by virtue of the existing of similar negative charges with in the cytoplasm

- These charges are largely the result of the distribution of potassium and sodium (more potassium inside and more sodium outside the cells).

- He sees cancer as a mass of cells that in a way clump together to form a hardened mass because they lost their gel-like (structured water) properties, due to loss of potassium inside the cells, and energy deficiency state due to upregulated glycolysis (the latter is common to the bioenergy community view, but there was no mention of excessive cell division of undifferentiated cells)

- two key tenants in his approach to cure:
1. High potassium / low sodium diet
2. A ketogenic diet to bypass glycolysis and to drive full fatty acid oxidation in order to produce more ATP.

He explained that ATP's purpose was not to store energy, but rather facilitate the unfolding of protein in order to produce the structured water environment.

I guess I was completely surprised by his advocacy for keto and lack of regard for the possibility that it is possible to support the shift from being stuck in the the glycolysis metabolism to being being able to fully oxidize glucose.

Was also surprised by no bring up the possibility that the ketogenic state is stressful and can do more harm.

It was interesting to me that both him and Ray were highly influenced by Ling, and yet, there dietary approach to treating cancer is quite different, even in terms of sodium intake.

 

[Bioenergy_Space]

The fact that he claims to understand the Association Induction Hypothesis, but fails to see that fatty acid oxidation will result in a more reduced state highlights severe faults in his understanding. Ling's theories are not just something that can be bolted onto any health framework for extra legitimacy points. Keeping the cell in an oxidized state is what allows the proteins to structure water in the first place. Beta-oxidation will do the opposite.

 

[LLight]

This is a pretty complicated study (to my understanding) so I'm not even sure it can support the following hypothesis:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006349523000048

The stress robustness of the cells is also strongly dependent on the behavior and state of intracellular water, especially during stress exposure. For a better understanding of the protective mechanism and effect of strongly hydrophilic 3HB in solutions at a wide range of temperatures, a binary phase diagram of system sodium 3HB (Na3HB)-water in equilibrium and the state diagrams showing the glass transitions in the system were constructed. To investigate the activity of water in various compositions of the Na3HB/water system, three experimental techniques have been used (dynamic water sorption analysis, water activity measurements, and sorption calorimetry). First, Na3HB proved its hydrophilic nature, which is very comparable with known compatible solutes (trehalose).

Could the ketone body 3hydroxybutyrate could act as some form of protection against osmotic stress and could play the role of an osmolyte (like trehalose is one for examle) which increase water structure?

The keto diet might reduce insulin and water retention: this is often seen as an issue, people tend to lose the "water weight" and not really their fat. If the lost water weight is edema more than water associated to glycogen, then it means that some edema might be flushed, that intracellular water might be reduced (and that most of it might be unstructured water). The flushing of (unstructured) intracellular water might help the use of oxygen by cells as hypothesized in some publications.

Some ideas about the use of osmolytes:

Spoiler: Osmolytes

Structured Water and Cancer: Orthomolecular Hydration Therapy | Journal of Cancer Research Updates

It is a common practice to envision cancer exclusively as a genetic disease, however, in our perspective, changes in gene expression leading to malignancy are secondary to biochemical disturbances and at its core we consider cancer as a metabolic energetic disease. In this regard, incongruence with the concept of the bioenergetic theory of carcinogenesis, we propose structured water (EZ water), as an element that facilitates the correction of the fundamental energy disruption and the reestablishment of health. The prime approach for this therapy would be to infuse kosmotropic osmolytes by the intravenous route to improve the physiological conditions and promote the reduction of cancer growth with no side effects. By doing so, we could expect that the cells will regain their communication ability with a functioning Ras and p53 proteins and other metabolic and transcription factors. The end goal is to support the cell in overcoming its low-energy anaerobic glycolytic metabolism that favors uncontrolled growth and regain the full energetic potential of oxidative phosphorylation that supports controlled cell division and differentiation. To achieve this goal, we propose the use of metabolic correction to improve the membrane function of the mitochondria. The use of precursors, enzymatic cofactors, and a variety of biological response modifiers which includes structured water and its kosmotropic properties in enzyme dynamics are part of the metabolic correction concept.

 

[Brandin]

I'd like to get your thoughts on Dr. Cowan's view on cancer and how to heal it.

I recently listened to a Podcast interview of Dr. Tom Cowan with one of the Weston A Price People.
Some of you might be familiar with him.
A significant part of his view on health and disease is based on work of Gilbert Ling, who Peat had referred to a lot, i.e. the presence of structured water (gel-like environment) in the cells .

Let me summarize his main points

- Water in cells exists in gel like form due to the unfolded state of certain protein and the charge differential in and out of the cells.

- Cells are kept at an ideal distance from one another by virtue of the existing of similar negative charges with in the cytoplasm

- These charges are largely the result of the distribution of potassium and sodium (more potassium inside and more sodium outside the cells).

- He sees cancer as a mass of cells that in a way clump together to form a hardened mass because they lost their gel-like (structured water) properties, due to loss of potassium inside the cells, and energy deficiency state due to upregulated glycolysis (the latter is common to the bioenergy community view, but there was no mention of excessive cell division of undifferentiated cells)

- two key tenants in his approach to cure:
1. High potassium / low sodium diet
2. A ketogenic diet to bypass glycolysis and to drive full fatty acid oxidation in order to produce more ATP.

He explained that ATP's purpose was not to store energy, but rather facilitate the unfolding of protein in order to produce the structured water environment.

I guess I was completely surprised by his advocacy for keto and lack of regard for the possibility that it is possible to support the shift from being stuck in the the glycolysis metabolism to being being able to fully oxidize glucose.

Was also surprised by no bring up the possibility that the ketogenic state is stressful and can do more harm.

It was interesting to me that both him and Ray were highly influenced by Ling, and yet, there dietary approach to treating cancer is quite different, even in terms of sodium intake.

point 2 is funny

 

[LLight]

An abstract about the link between water structure and cancer:

Carcinogenesis Hypothesis: Persistent subclinical
chronic inflammation due to chemical, physical or biological stress evolves in a hypotonic environment, due to interstitial edema, which causes mild “cell swelling” and as a defense mechanism to maintain cell volume intact the cells lose cosmotrope osmolytes. In the continued presence of the causal factor, the decrease of the cytoplasmic cosmotrope osmolytes slowly transform the structured water into unstructured water, which gradually causes a decrease in the order-information degree of the cellular thermodynamic system, which, upon reaching the maximum tolerable entropy point, causes the cell a “near-death state”.
At this point of low concentration of osmolytes, predominance of unstructured water and high cellular entropy the cells transform and fight to stay alive and the only way to survive is through cell proliferation. Proliferation to keep the precious genome stoned for 3.8 billion years. At the same time, they silence tumor suppressor genes. Dying cells put into action millenarian mechanisms of survival, precisely those that kept normal cells alive on the Planet during Evolution. In this way, cells first discard the heavy mechanism of oxidative phosphorylation and begin to operate in the archaic cycle of Embden-Meyerhof, which provides ATP for the nucleus cell cycle proliferative genes, activate signaling factors and pathways, promote cytoplasmic alkalinization, etc. All these elements together promote neoplastic cell proliferation, decrease apoptosis, formation of new vessels and the impediment of cell differentiation. The predominance of the unstructured water in the intracellular increases the cellular volume. Measures that transform unstructured water into structured water, such as peritumoral hyperosmolality and increased intracellular cosmotrope osmolytes, and strategies that increase mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation restore physiology and cellular bioenergetics, and neoplastic cells stop proliferating, differentiate in normal cells and walk to life and then to the ongoing physiological pro- cess of programmed cell death. The chronic disease called cancer ceases if the causal factors was abolished (JFJ-2005).

 

[LLight]

To add to what has been already posted:

The dysfunction of metabolic controlling of cell hydration precedes Warburg phenomenon in carcinogenesis

As CO2 solubility in aqua medium is more than 20 times higher than O2 solubility [28], oxygen could not reach to mitochondria and would lead to generation of Warburg phenomenon. Therefore, prevention of generation of Warburg phenomenon can be achieved by both cell dehydration and the decrease of CO2 solubility in cytoplasm.

Dry Fasting Physiology: Responses to Hypovolemia and Hypertonicity

The association of adrenaline and EPO with both edema elimination (Fig. 2) and improved cellular oxygenation raises the question of whether edema elimination and improved cellular oxygenation are causally linked.

 

[Elie]

To add to what has been already posted:

The dysfunction of metabolic controlling of cell hydration precedes Warburg phenomenon in carcinogenesis


Dry Fasting Physiology: Responses to Hypovolemia and Hypertonicity

So you are saying that depleting glycogen with ketogenesis helps to dehydrate... what? interstitial fluid? or hyperosmotic cells?
is there no way to achieve this without ketogenesis?

 

[Elie]

The fact that he claims to understand the Association Induction Hypothesis, but fails to see that fatty acid oxidation will result in a more reduced state highlights severe faults in his understanding. Ling's theories are not just something that can be bolted onto any health framework for extra legitimacy points. Keeping the cell in an oxidized state is what allows the proteins to structure water in the first place. Beta-oxidation will do the opposite.

that's how I saw it... Just wondered if there was something I was missing...

 

[LLight]

So you are saying that depleting glycogen with ketogenesis helps to dehydrate... what? interstitial fluid? or hyperosmotic cells?
is there no way to achieve this without ketogenesis?

I believe the low insulin levels (that might be reached by other means than the keto diet by the way) could help cells flush the unwanted intracellular water (cancer cells are known to carry too much water inside them). Insulin is a signal for cells to retain water. The unwanted intracellular water/edema might impair oxygenation of cells and thus oxidative phosphorylation.

I mentioned glycogen because the water lost at the initiation of a low carb diet is not necessarily just edema but can be linked to the fact that someone carries less glycogen.

Moreover, the ketone bodies could play the role of osmolytes, which are molecules helping structure water and proteins. I wonder if ketones cannot be metabolized with less oxygen than glucose too.

 

[Dapose]

I have read all of Dr Cowans books and I am a big fan of his and the Westin a price scene… as much as I love Tom and how he thinks about stuff, (very Peat like) he just unfortunately gets really really lazy by avoiding understanding oxidative and reductive stress. He loves this magical world where what he thinks seems logical and most be right. I am grateful to him for showing me how to think creatively about the body and our world. The heart is not a pump is fantastic book. And his book cancer and the new biology of water is good too. But as soon as I started learning Rays work and reading his stuff and learning from this forum, I have come to realize that Tom is drinking is own cool aid. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard Giorgi Danny and Ray talk about water cells structuring water sodium potassium etc that I wish to god Tom would learn. I feel like if he could ever learn Rays work he would be amazing at getting the patient experience out to the masses. Something that unfortunately has not happened yet, although it seems like Dr. Mercola is stepping up to be that guy.

Ketosis is stress! Cortisol physiology. It’s a survival state. What Giorgi and Ray point out throughout this hole forum is that could only have some minor benefit to someone who is already healthy! And the reasons not to do keto with cancer is literally everywhere on this forum. Keto is bypassing broken sugar metabolism. Rather then fixing it. Then once it’s bypassed you go into a high cortisol torpor.
What person do you know that has body fat that is all saturated and no Pufa? Go on a keto diet and you will be on a very high Pufa diet. Terrible.
One could go in all day with this. It’s all over this forum.

 

[Elie]

I have read all of Dr Cowans books and I am a big fan of his and the Westin a price scene… as much as I love Tom and how he thinks about stuff, (very Peat like) he just unfortunately gets really really lazy by avoiding understanding oxidative and reductive stress. He loves this magical world where what he thinks seems logical and most be right. I am grateful to him for showing me how to think creatively about the body and our world. The heart is not a pump is fantastic book. And his book cancer and the new biology of water is good too. But as soon as I started learning Rays work and reading his stuff and learning from this forum, I have come to realize that Tom is drinking is own cool aid. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard Giorgi Danny and Ray talk about water cells structuring water sodium potassium etc that I wish to god Tom would learn. I feel like if he could ever learn Rays work he would be amazing at getting the patient experience out to the masses. Something that unfortunately has not happened yet, although it seems like Dr. Mercola is stepping up to be that guy.

Ketosis is stress! Cortisol physiology. It’s a survival state. What Giorgi and Ray point out throughout this hole forum is that could only have some minor benefit to someone who is already healthy! And the reasons not to do keto with cancer is literally everywhere on this forum. Keto is bypassing broken sugar metabolism. Rather then fixing it. Then once it’s bypassed you go into a high cortisol torpor.
What person do you know that has body fat that is all saturated and no Pufa? Go on a keto diet and you will be on a very high Pufa diet. Terrible.
One could go in all day with this. It’s all over this forum.

I Totally resonate with that

 

[Deleted member 14744]

I have read all of Dr Cowans books and I am a big fan of his and the Westin a price scene… as much as I love Tom and how he thinks about stuff, (very Peat like) he just unfortunately gets really really lazy by avoiding understanding oxidative and reductive stress. He loves this magical world where what he thinks seems logical and most be right. I am grateful to him for showing me how to think creatively about the body and our world. The heart is not a pump is fantastic book. And his book cancer and the new biology of water is good too. But as soon as I started learning Rays work and reading his stuff and learning from this forum, I have come to realize that Tom is drinking is own cool aid. I can’t count how many times I’ve heard Giorgi Danny and Ray talk about water cells structuring water sodium potassium etc that I wish to god Tom would learn. I feel like if he could ever learn Rays work he would be amazing at getting the patient experience out to the masses. Something that unfortunately has not happened yet, although it seems like Dr. Mercola is stepping up to be that guy.

Ketosis is stress! Cortisol physiology. It’s a survival state. What Giorgi and Ray point out throughout this hole forum is that could only have some minor benefit to someone who is already healthy! And the reasons not to do keto with cancer is literally everywhere on this forum. Keto is bypassing broken sugar metabolism. Rather then fixing it. Then once it’s bypassed you go into a high cortisol torpor.
What person do you know that has body fat that is all saturated and no Pufa? Go on a keto diet and you will be on a very high Pufa diet. Terrible.
One could go in all day with this. It’s all over this forum.

Totally agree. Love much of Dr. Cowan's stuff but he really drops the ball here.