Can T3 Ruin The Liver?

[Guacamayo]

I've been taking T3 (Tertroxin as it's called in Australia) at a dose of 140mcg/day for the past year and since then my liver health has steadily deteriorated, with my ALP now high up out of the normal range and my Globulin down below the minimum.


I take it alongside NDT, however, when I was taking NDT by itself I did not have these bad liver symptoms.


Does anyone know if one of the side effects of T3 is that it ruins liver health? I've checked around on the internet and can't find anything, but really, with diet remaining virtually unchanged, it seems the most likely culprit. Or could it be due to the massive dose that I take? Most people need to take less but because I have poor absorption I need to take it in doses over 100mcg.

 

[Markus]

High ALP can be a sign of magnesium deficiency and thyroid can increase your need for magnesium as it increases your metabolism.

 

[Guacamayo]

It's possible, but I supplement magnesium quite regularly and so I doubt that it's that...Also, this may be unrelated, but magnesium tends to constipate me. Especially magnesium oxide which is meant to be a laxative - and this is when I was taking over double the recommended dose needed to induce a laxative effect.

 

[Waynish]

I would look into why your health deteriorated in the first place to the point where they put you on T3... We don't need much T3 - why can't we produce it ourselves? So many people get side effects from supplementing it I don't even think it is worth it in most cases.

 

[Kunstruct]

If I supplement with T3 8 to 16mcg I get colder feet than they are already.
Now that is interesting.

 

[mangoes]

140mcg? Isn’t that way too much?
edit: oh sorry I missed the last line ab poor absorption

 

[Waynish]

If I supplement with T3 8 to 16mcg I get colder feet than they are already.
Now that is interesting.

Yep... So it is obviously wrong!

 

[Geo]

listen to RP he explains why 140mcg T3 is too much. He recomends 4mcg, 6 times a day.

 

[Chris-R]

If I supplement with T3 8 to 16mcg I get colder feet than they are already.
Now that is interesting.

Same happened to me. But it was short lived as I persisted with the T3 dosing as the days went on. When you have low thyroid hormone production and/or low T4-T3 conversion and/or poor T3 utilization, your body raises adrenaline and cortisol (significantly) to compensate and to run your biological machinery. It is of course sub-optimal and is the stress state, but this way you can at least function and get through your day somehow. When you take T3 in such a state, your body quickly recognizes the T3 and says "hey, I guess I need to down regulate the adrenaline and cortisol" however, your cells are likely NOT going to be optimally saturated with T3 from just a dose or even a day or two of dosing. So during that time you're in a sort of adjustment phase. You may feel worse, tired, cold etc. Stress hormones were keeping you heated (somewhat), alert and moving. They are now being knocked down, and the supplemental thyroid has not yet made its way everywhere its needed, and additionally, it takes time and consistent reliable and adequate dosing for your body to trust that it is safe to fully transition back to a thyroid-hormone-mediated metabolism. Logical in theory, yet somewhat paradoxical as a first hand experience. None of this is gospel of course as I don't know all of your details. -chris

 

[Kvothe]

I've been taking T3 (Tertroxin as it's called in Australia) at a dose of 140mcg/day for the past year and since then my liver health has steadily deteriorated, with my ALP now high up out of the normal range and my Globulin down below the minimum.


I take it alongside NDT, however, when I was taking NDT by itself I did not have these bad liver symptoms.


Does anyone know if one of the side effects of T3 is that it ruins liver health? I've checked around on the internet and can't find anything, but really, with diet remaining virtually unchanged, it seems the most likely culprit. Or could it be due to the massive dose that I take? Most people need to take less but because I have poor absorption I need to take it in doses over 100mcg.

140mcg is three times more than your entire body produces in a days! And you take that on top of NDT? This is madness. Your liver will sense that as a dangerous excess, and excrete T3 at an increasing rate. Your glycogen stores are probably terribly depleted, and your rT3 elevated.

If I supplement with T3 8 to 16mcg I get colder feet than they are already.
Now that is interesting.

Same thing. If your liver is already sluggish, it will sense a dose like this as a dangerous, unphysiological excess that it can't support. The ironic result is that you will end up with less T3 than before. Did you take the t3 in one dose or divide it into several throughout the day?

 

[Chris-R]

If your liver is already sluggish, it will sense a dose like this as a dangerous, unphysiological excess that it can't support. The ironic result is that you will end up with less T3 than before. Did you take the t3 in one dose or divide it into several throughout the day?

Where'd you learn that? Why and how does the liver need to "support" exogenous T3? Also, 8mcg is "unphysiological excess" that the body "can't support"??

 

[Kvothe]

Where'd you learn that? Why and how does the liver need to "support" exogenous T3? Also, 8mcg is "unphysiological excess" that the body "can't support"??

From hundreds of personal reports I have heard, and, more importantly, it's obvious, if you look at studies using large doses of T3. If a person gets cold hands and feet from 8mcg of T3, what do you think is going on? T3 does the opposite, it makes you warm because it increases calorie consumption and heat production. Your average hypothyroid person with a sluggish liver produces about 30mcg of T3, daily (that's the total amount produced by thyroid and liver deiodinase) - how then can you expect a hypothyroid person's tissue to handle 140mcg plus dessicated thyroid? Nowadays, you will rarely ever find a person that gets hyperthyroid from taking T4 or T3 because most people's health has so deteriorated that their tissue won't even allow them to go hyper for a short time.

Ray has also talked about this, and mentioned that he got arrhythmia a few hours after taking a large dose of T3. Episodes of arrhythmia are a telltale sign that your liver is excreting T3.

 

[Kunstruct]

Same thing. If your liver is already sluggish, it will sense a dose like this as a dangerous, unphysiological excess that it can't support. The ironic result is that you will end up with less T3 than before. Did you take the t3 in one dose or divide it into several throughout the day?

I have not tried it like that. I have taken 4mcg yet only by wasting the other 4mcg because it is based on drops, not a pill.

It it is indeed interesting how the warmer I am or let's say the warmer my feet are the less taking that T3 dose cools the feet.

I would think my liver is sluggish at any rate something it is really bad with me, lots of E2 symptoms lately and other very specific symptoms of issues which no one knows what are those supposed to be.

 

[Kvothe]

It it is indeed interesting how the warmer I am or let's say the warmer my feet are the less taking that T3 dose cools the feet.

That makes sense. If you are somewhat warm, and circulation is sufficient, that means that your liver is working decently at the moment, which means that it will be able to handle a certain metabolic level (amount of circulating T3). I do think that t3 supplementation is the best way out of hypothyroidism and degenerative liver diseases, but for a lot of people the initial dose must be very small and well balanced until the liver and other tissues had time to regenerate a little.

 

[Chris-R]

From hundreds of personal reports I have heard, and, more importantly, it's obvious, if you look at studies using large doses of T3. If a person gets cold hands and feet from 8mcg of T3, what do you think is going on?

I already wrote about what is likely "going on" in my comment above. My perspective in that comment comes directly from the basic science (active thyroid goes down, adrenaline often goes way up) as well as based on several quotes and writings from Ray.

how then can you expect a hypothyroid person's tissue to handle 140mcg plus dessicated thyroid?

We are both in total agreement. 140mcg T3 in a day is ridiculous. However, I was not responding relative to the OP. I was responding directly to Kunstruct and to your response to Kunstruct regarding their experience with an 8mcg - 16mcg dose of T3 which you commented as being unphysiological, too much for the liver, and that the liver can't support. Which I don't think you've substantiated. 4mcg at a time might be more reasonable, but I don't find 8 or 16mcg all that high of a dose nor do I understand how a dose in that range is troublesome for a "sluggish liver", or too much for the liver to support in general.

The quotes I have read whereby Ray spoke about heart issues on initially dosing with T3 were attributed 1) too high of a dose 2) having such high compensatory adrenaline due to being hypothyroid. He states it can take two days or more of dosing to get adrenaline levels down to normal/healthy levels. During this adjustment period you can have all kinds of symptoms. Cold hands, heart issues, fatigue etc. The T3 is being layered on top of elevated adrenaline until the body recognizes the consistent presence of adequate T3 and feels it is safe to lower adrenaline and return to a thyroid hormone based metabolism.

 

[Kvothe]

I already wrote about what is likely "going on" in my comment above. My perspective in that comment comes directly from the basic science (active thyroid goes down, adrenaline often goes way up) as well as based on several quotes and writings from Ray.

What is the basic science? It's not as simple as "the body recognizing more t3 upon which it can simply lower stress hormones and run on good thyroid". If that was the case, everybody would just take a t3 dose like that and feel good, and there wouldn't be dozens of publications on pubmed showing that t3 only medication isn't superior to standard thyroxine therapy. The body has a very narrow preference zone for serum t3 levels and works very hard to defend that level. The exact values of that corridor depend on tissue condition, and if all your tissues (especially the liver) are structurally damaged from hypothyroidism, increasing your t3 level by 50% all of a sudden (16mcg), is probably gonna do nothing but make you feel worse.
Why is that so many people here and on other forums report bad reactions to t3? I have read from so many people that all say the same thing. They take a supposedly moderate dose of t3, divided into 3-4 doses throughout the day, and yet they become more hypo or feel the same.

 

[Kunstruct]

Why is that so many people here and on other forums report bad reactions to t3? I have read from so many people that all say the same thing. They take a supposedly moderate dose of t3, divided into 3-4 doses throughout the day, and yet they become more hypo or feel the same.

I have seen reports like that, most reporting how they are on some thyroid medication that does not do anything to change how they are feeling.
At the same time you only need 2 people to report how good they are on T3 and their life is changed and then dozens others will recommend others T3.

 

[Waynish]

I have seen reports like that, most reporting how they are on some thyroid medication that does not do anything to change how they are feeling.
At the same time you only need 2 people to report how good they are on T3 and their life is changed and then dozens others will recommend others T3.

I've met people like this and none of them have actually improved beyond a certain point. Ray is all about upstream hormones, but somehow T3 is exempt from that logic. If someone has their thyroid removed or has a reason their liver will never be able to convert it - fine... But as a starting point?

 

[Chris-R]

What is the basic science? It's not as simple as "the body recognizing more t3 upon which it can simply lower stress hormones and run on good thyroid". If that was the case, everybody would just take a t3 dose like that and feel good, and there wouldn't be dozens of publications on pubmed showing that t3 only medication isn't superior to standard thyroxine therapy. The body has a very narrow preference zone for serum t3 levels and works very hard to defend that level. The exact values of that corridor depend on tissue condition, and if all your tissues (especially the liver) are structurally damaged from hypothyroidism, increasing your t3 level by 50% all of a sudden (16mcg), is probably gonna do nothing but make you feel worse.
Why is that so many people here and on other forums report bad reactions to t3? I have read from so many people that all say the same thing. They take a supposedly moderate dose of t3, divided into 3-4 doses throughout the day, and yet they become more hypo or feel the same.

The basic science I was referring to was: when active thyroid goes low enough, the body often produces more adrenaline to compensate. When someone in this condition initially takes T3 they, per Ray, will likely feel adverse symptoms sometimes lasting 2 days or longer. There is an adjustment phase that needs to be overcome. This is not descriptive of everyone's situation of course, hence why I wrote in my reply to Kunstruct "THIS IS NOT GOSPEL OF COURSE AS I DON'T KNOW ALL OF YOUR DETAILS" (see above). I was simply stating what could be part of the equation when one feels worse or colder initially on T3 (assuming I suppose that diet and lifestyle is proper). I should have prefaced my comments with some added "often times" or "in some people", admittedly. Point is, the reasoning and underlying causes go into infinity, but there are common denominators and common symptoms, as well as common solutions. You, made a comment that 8mcg - 16mcg is problematic and you cited that the liver senses those levels of T3 as dangerous. I've never read or heard of that before.

 

[Kvothe]

The basic science I was referring to was: when active thyroid goes low enough, the body often produces more adrenaline to compensate. When someone in this condition initially takes T3 they, per Ray, will likely feel adverse symptoms sometimes lasting 2 days or longer. There is an adjustment phase that needs to be overcome. This is not descriptive of everyone's situation of course, hence why I wrote in my reply to Kunstruct "THIS IS NOT GOSPEL OF COURSE AS I DON'T KNOW ALL OF YOUR DETAILS" (see above). I was simply stating what could be part of the equation when one feels worse or colder initially on T3 (assuming I suppose that diet and lifestyle is proper). I should have prefaced my comments with some added "often times" or "in some people", admittedly. Point is, the reasoning and underlying causes go into infinity, but there are common denominators and common symptoms, as well as common solutions. You, made a comment that 8mcg - 16mcg is problematic and you cited that the liver senses those levels of T3 as dangerous. I've never read or heard of that before.

I don't think your explanation regarding stress hormones makes much sense. Stress hormones don't make you warmer, and therefore t3 lowering stress hormones can't be the reason for coldness in response to t3. Adrenaline specifically restricts the blood flow to the extremities and digestive tract, and therefore cold hands and feet can't be the result of t3 lowering it. What you should feel in response to t3 is an almost immediate warming effect. It would makes sense to say that lowering stress hormones can decrease your core temperature, but if your extremities get colder, your are definitely not lowering your stress hormones. Most people get warmer once or twice in response to a large dose of t3 but then turn colder and colder. I never got long-term positive results from t3 until I started with 2mcg doses 3 times a day, and then slowly increased it to 4-5mcg. That final dose for a few weeks was enough to get rid of most of my problems.

You, made a comment that 8mcg - 16mcg is problematic and you cited that the liver senses those levels of T3 as dangerous. I've never read or heard of that before.

You have never heard of anyone complaining about adverse reactions to t3? Just search for t3 only studies on pubmed, and look at the results. Taking a single dose 50mcg of t3 is probably worse than taking 120mcg of thyroxine