Brexit

[tara]

Unless Scotland leaves too

The folks in Scotland voted to remain in EU, didn't they? I imagine they can't remain unless they get independence from UK by the time it leaves?

Britons have a proud history of asserting human rights and the right to self determination, a tradition that raises the dignity of the common man and that is visible in all the anglo countries, great to see that tradition continuing in it's birthplace!

I assume this is satire? A fair few of the indigenous peoples colonised by Britain would probably take another view of that.

UK,US,AUS,NZ,CAN each one has a tradition of a highly literate population capable of facilitating complex differentiated govts where individuals needs are met on local and national levels.

Historical land grabs, attempted genocides, ongoing unnecessary extremes of poverty and in some cases fairly direct ongoing breaches of breaches of human rights ....
[ETA:] And I doubt the victims of the Irish potato famine were all that impressed with British promotion of human rights.

 

[tara]

The English language is a tragedy ,it encourages long winded verbosity that sounds intelligent but more often than not its a guise for making corruption legal.

Hey, I agree with you about quite a lot of what you said, but the English language is wonderful. :) Not more wonderful than any of the other languages it has subsumed, displaced, or competed with, but a fantastically useful tool for transmitting culture non-the-less. It does also contain support for hierarchical and oppressive systems etc, but it is much more than that too.

You seem to ignore the fact that the people of the U.K. work for the monarchy, for queen and country, she still creams money in spite of direct taxation being stopped.

The monarchy does strike me as not exactly an institution of democracy, but the (non-)democracy of the City of London and its institutions seem like a much bigger issue than the monarchy, and will probably be harder to divest of power.

 

[Richiebogie]

The Leave result was remarkable given the constant state-sponsored propaganda to Remain.

This is a win for the Westminster system of government.

 

[Such_Saturation]

It isn't a binding vote...

 

[seano]

Britons have a proud history of asserting human rights and the right to self determination, a tradition that raises the dignity of the common man and that is visible in all the anglo countries, great to see that tradition continuing in it's birthplace!

Just to make everyone smile and to show the British "asserting human rights":

 

[Drareg]

The fallacy we all fall into sometimes is the flag fallacy, the top 1% couldn't careless for flags, it's an illusion these days for the subservient classes. It's a con job, necessary to stop mania fuelled crime in society but wide open to corruption at the same time.

Many of us on the Ray Peat forum and following him in general have a flag we are all united under,it's called the subservient class,working/middle class,add higher/lower where you see fit,it's all the same, without us the elites don't exist.

It's astounding how easy it is to rise nationalism in people ,the constitutions of all mentioned countries are undermined on a daily basis with legislation that contradicts the rights of people under constitutional law, elites want rid of constitutions everywhere.
We are helping them do it and are happy in general to do it because we see the corruption as normal once we adjust, add in a few TV programmes to back said behaviour, many don't believe these shows don't get inside their heads,they do IMO, just look at fanaticism behind game of thrones,a tragedy that would be a flop as a movie or without the sex scenes,correct me if I'm wrong, the sex scenes are also about dominance in Said show?
It's mirroring back to us a deep seated primal urge,low energy states.

People still believe in their minds they will come out top of the pile, I will have my chair when the corrupt music of capitalism stops,they live on this hope,many in youth do and some older who refuse/can't emotionally grow. This is why said programmes appeal to them,it fuels their hope, the hope is essentially screwing other humans over for what ultimately becomes an empty shell,material power and the belief they can have sex with whomever they choose.

It wouldn't surprise me if a collapse is being instigated because none of this makes sense, people in general are helpless in westernised countries, a collapse of the system will allow a power grab which is politics,maintain power and, "law "(their law)at all costs. People will be desperate within 6 months of a collapse and will take anything that comes along with the promise of a fix.
The Brexit just adds to the chaos of an impotent global economy.

 

[CarbAppreciator]

Whatever dude... I'm saying this stuff clearly came from Britain and in my opinion it's good and every human is better off because of those societal shifts, I'm not defending the exploits of the British Monarchy and the modern anglo-american empire, I'm saying there is a tradition of self determination that evolved out of Britain, are you saying that's not true? Evidence?.

 

[tobieagle]

 

[Drareg]

They may as well have a load of ships with the entire globes collection of flags on them headed for the edge.
Dominoes.

 

[SarahBeara]

I live in the Republic of Ireland, a country that despite not having a say, now faces an EU border splitting the tiny Island that we live on and jeopardising not only our delicate recovering economy but also the peace-process so hard fought for.

Frankly neither sides of the leave nor remain campaigns covered themselves in glory before the vote and the behaviour hasn't changed since.

On the leave side you had bald-faced lies of 'independence' and not having to deal with EU regulations and directives, despite the fact that if you want to trade with the EU you must adhere to all directives AND you get no say in how the regulations are drafted like you did before.

To those thinking you can just ignore this to trade with US, Russia, China instead, imagine Canada saying it's not going to trade with the US anymore. Won't and can't happen. Also don't forget that the UK have no department for trade negotiation as this task was 'outsourced' to the EU for 40 years.

An then on the remain side you have chicken-lickin style doom sayers who think that one of the biggest economies in the world is going to turn into Greece overnight and the £ is going to be worth a $ and all the current immigrants will be mass deported. Britain has existed in one form or another for over 1,000 years, it's not going to crumble without an institution that's been around for less than 50.

More annoying than that is the paternalistic assertion that the people who voted leave must be a) stupid b) racist and c) misinformed like no one without a university degree could ever make a decision about the future of their country.

Basically it's a big old mess. And as per usual the ones to pay for it will not be the elites at the top on both sides (both leaders of the Remain and Leave sides went to the same exclusive private school), but the working and middle classes.

Plus ca change.

 

[Drareg]

I live in the Republic of Ireland, a country that despite not having a say, now faces an EU border splitting the tiny Island that we live on and jeopardising not only our delicate recovering economy but also the peace-process so hard fought for.

Frankly neither sides of the leave nor remain campaigns covered themselves in glory before the vote and the behaviour hasn't changed since.

On the leave side you had bald-faced lies of 'independence' and not having to deal with EU regulations and directives, despite the fact that if you want to trade with the EU you must adhere to all directives AND you get no say in how the regulations are drafted like you did before.

To those thinking you can just ignore this to trade with US, Russia, China instead, imagine Canada saying it's not going to trade with the US anymore. Won't and can't happen. Also don't forget that the UK have no department for trade negotiation as this task was 'outsourced' to the EU for 40 years.

An then on the remain side you have chicken-lickin style doom sayers who think that one of the biggest economies in the world is going to turn into Greece overnight and the £ is going to be worth a $ and all the current immigrants will be mass deported. Britain has existed in one form or another for over 1,000 years, it's not going to crumble without an institution that's been around for less than 50.

More annoying than that is the paternalistic assertion that the people who voted leave must be a) stupid b) racist and c) misinformed like no one without a university degree could ever make a decision about the future of their country.

Basically it's a big old mess. And as per usual the ones to pay for it will not be the elites at the top on both sides (both leaders of the Remain and Leave sides went to the same exclusive private school), but the working and middle classes.

Plus ca change.

Ireland will be fine,it has a small but growing population and people in general want to work,being small means they can recover quicker, the public are bailing out corrupt institutions that encouraged a property bubble and any other credit fuelled bubble they could. Australia are currently in a similar boat now but a much larger population.
In saying that their is no recovery in Ireland or anywhere else yet as it wasn't allowed to go bust after 2007-8,it's an inflated economy with the illusion of recovery, the big bubble is going to pop within the next 3 years. Every country will feel pain here, except possibly North Korea.
The boarder issue is scare mongering in by vested interests,it will remain the same as it is now.

Many of the business's you see opening are fuelled by cheap money from banks with interest rates at zero,most people opening are Married with mortgage or kids,on the hook. Said businesses make profit in this climate and open another business because zero interest rates are so appealing,when interest rates rise its a huge issue, the hilarity is they may never rise because of what will happen.
Britain on the other hand may have to raise rates and cause a lot of damage.

Britain has never in its history being in the position it is in now, it's potential crumbling was by its own hand not the EU. It's not going to be a Switzerland contrary to popular delusion,population difference won't allow it to be.

 

[SarahBeara]

Ireland will be fine,it has a small but growing population and people in general want to work,being small means they can recover quicker, the public are bailing out corrupt institutions that encouraged a property bubble and any other credit fuelled bubble they could. Australia are currently in a similar boat now but a much larger population.
In saying that their is no recovery in Ireland or anywhere else yet as it wasn't allowed to go bust after 2007-8,it's an inflated economy with the illusion of recovery, the big bubble is going to pop within the next 3 years. Every country will feel pain here, except possibly North Korea.
The boarder issue is scare mongering in by vested interests,it will remain the same as it is now.

Many of the business's you see opening are fuelled by cheap money from banks with interest rates at zero,most people opening are Married with mortgage or kids,on the hook. Said businesses make profit in this climate and open another business because zero interest rates are so appealing,when interest rates rise its a huge issue, the hilarity is they may never rise because of what will happen.
Britain on the other hand may have to raise rates and cause a lot of damage.

Britain has never in its history being in the position it is in now, it's potential crumbling was by its own hand not the EU. It's not going to be a Switzerland contrary to popular delusion,population difference won't allow it to be.

Where are these zero-rate interest rates to businesses that you speak of? I don't know if you're familiar with the Irish banking landscape but we have very high interest rates on loans despite low ECB rates.

 

[kyle]

WRT Muslims, etc. Islam seems to be somewhat authoritarian which doesn't seem to be conducive to a healthy metabolism.

The interesting part about diversity is that it is very paradoxical.

There may be more diversity on your very street than in the whole of Islam, who is to say? A microscope reveals things just as startling as a telescope. The Scots, English and Welsh may be painfully diverse that we tend to look at them and suppose that they are really all the same- bigoted and pedestrian. You might look at the minarets of the Mosque, the head coverings and strange languages of the orient and think, this is diverse and novel. And yet if you were to truly become one of them, you might discover that they harbor bias and boringness that would boggle the mind.

This seems to be a case of fleeing from something uncomfortably close for something comfortably alien.

In other words, the man who longs for his old cockney neighborhood with familiar foods and drink and culture of his youth is not so different from the cosmopolitan who longs for the feeling of anonymity, a replacement of the nationalist and rooted for throngs of uprooted strangeness.

And yet xenophilia is not seen as high of a thought crime as xenophobia. But in fact, there is something xenophobic when Brexiters are labeled as retrograde, uneducated, etc. (not saying this has been explicitly stated here but it has been expressed elsewhere in the press and the web.) There is something class based here. The Brexiters are different from the Remainers. They are the definition of diverse and having their own opinion and this doesn't sit well with the remainers who, perhaps ironically, place a high value on diversity.

More cosmopolitan individuals will not be able to relate to the poorer members of their society where in lieu of currency, people place a higher value on trust because they require it to survive. Diversity to 'little Britainers' is an existential threat and a feeling of not being able to rely on their neighbor. To the richer, diversity means cheaper help around the house (in fact this conceit was hilariously on display when Obama talked about how illegal immigrants were necessary to clean our houses and mow our lawns the other day- who the hell do you know that pays for that done?- his donors on the other hand...) or neat new restaurants to sate the moneyed class' desire for novelty.

The comprehension of diversity by different classes of people is not the same. We call it racism and bigotry when in fact there may be a more subtle reasons (that the public opinionators just chalk up to racism and bigotry as if these are self-explanatory states of total wickedness unworthy of any further understanding) because of class consciousness and simple physical realities such as real estate values and public services which make the concerns of the average Brexiter quite incomprehensible.

If the well-to-do run into trouble they know they can rely on their bank account. Trust of the local community may not be a very high priority of people with more money who use money as a way to find their needs met. (I refer you to the research on trust/diversity by Robert Putnam if you haven't had the privilege of living in diverse community.)

There may be more to what is going on but this is the most salient explanation. Sadly the general public doesn't really understand beyond speculation of what is going on because research like Putnam's is largely unheard of. In fact, he even held back his findings for years because they conflicted with his own political assumptions.

 

[kiran]

Yes, I am still pro Remain, and also generally pro immigration[...] But I am growing distressed by the material I am seeing from the Remain side. At some point we have to limit our moralizing about the vote and start treating it more like data, if only to figure out how to best overturn or reverse it.
...
Restoring and maintaining what is English? “Too little, too late!’ says I, “you should instead find a way of strengthening and redefining English identity under the status quo ex ante,” I might have added, but of course I was not given the deciding vote or indeed any vote at all.

Most of all, I conclude that the desire to preserve the English nation [sic] as English is stronger than I or indeed most others had thought. There is a positive side to that. And if all along you thought there was no case for Leave, probably it is you who is the provincial one.

Why Brexit happened and what it means - Marginal REVOLUTION

This is from Tyler Cowen, a remain supporter.

 

[wiggles92]

Realism - Realising that people who are unable or unwilling to leave the confines of their reptilian brain will forever refer to as pragmatic, their desire to not change.



It might be easy to placate your limited compassion for those deserving of it with wasteful, tribalist divisions, but in the long term interests of our world I don't think we should really refer to it as "pragmatic"

I shouldn't even bother getting involved but I felt too compelled. Are you saying white European people are not allowed to maintain some racial homogeneity? Are you following the cultural marxist crap that believes all people are like water, and will just fit in whatever container they are put in? Sorry that's a strawman, but really that's the essence of what all these snarky comments about denigrating tribalism boil down to. European free market, secular democracies are I sort of tribe I suppose. We fought against slavery when no other culture or race did. We created and spread the blueprint for the modern world, and it wouldn't exist without us.

There's a reason why the East Asians and Europeans create the wealthiest societies. It's because of higher genetic intelligence. Combined with a society wide ideology of free market, secular democracy. Not all nationalities will ever be able to reach 1st world status. They are far less intelligent, overall. And there's a very clear cut off point for working democracies, about 91 IQ if I recall.

 

[XPlus]

I shouldn't even bother getting involved but I felt too compelled. Are you saying white European people are not allowed to maintain some racial homogeneity? Are you following the cultural marxist crap that believes all people are like water, and will just fit in whatever container they are put in? Sorry that's a strawman, but really that's the essence of what all these snarky comments about denigrating tribalism boil down to. European free market, secular democracies are I sort of tribe I suppose. We fought against slavery when no other culture or race did. We created and spread the blueprint for the modern world, and it wouldn't exist without us.

There's a reason why the East Asians and Europeans create the wealthiest societies. It's because of higher genetic intelligence. Combined with a society wide ideology of free market, secular democracy. Not all nationalities will ever be able to reach 1st world status. They are far less intelligent, overall. And there's a very clear cut off point for working democracies, about 91 IQ if I recall.

Some interesting thought process there.
I guess there's a Wahabi clerk in all of us.

 

[kiran]

Ok this is the best reason for Brexit.

EU to launch kettle and toaster crackdown after Brexit vote

 

[Such_Saturation]

It's because of higher genetic intelligence.

Theeeere we go. Let it all out.

 

[Tarmander]

Theeeere we go. Let it all out.

I know I feel better

 

[Simonsays]

This thread just turned into the average twitter thread in UK before the EURef. Remarkable