advice on my stupid plan to fix my gut.

[Brandin]

Hi I have had digestive issues all my life. I have seen people being pro probiotics and people being pro antibiotics. I have long thought about this possibly stupid idea (extremely expensive aswell...) to mega dose specific beneficial strains while also taking a strong antibiotic and megadosing that.

This would be done at the same time. I was thinking to ingest beneficial strains faster than they die while the bad would die without readding them through supplementation.

I was thinking double strenght twice a day (or more) dose of antibiotic. megadosing 5 servings of specific strains (or more) multiple times a day...

Is this feasable? or will the megadosing of antibiotics completely ruin me???

I am getting desperate lmao...
any advice/discussing would be appreciated.

 

[Brandin]

I wanna add that i used to be anorexic and nutrient depleted af during my childhood untill i started weightlifting.I am also overly empathetic to the point I make stupid decisions

Could this possibly mean that I have very little bacteria in my gut and that I only need to add beneficial strains without antibiotics?

 

[Hans]

Have you tried eliminating gut irritating foods first?

 

[Brandin]

Have you tried eliminating gut irritating foods first?

At the moment I eat 4 liters medium fat milk, 1 liter oj, 2 spoons coconut oil, white sugar in the milk, port salut cheese, some sort of meat every 2nd day. I rarely eat something else than this and perhaps some sushi and the ocassional liver. I have been tryna get my hands on oysters but its pretty hard in Sweden.

Some things about me:
88 kg 15%bf maintainance kcal 3400.
I seem to have high test and estrogen and low dht...

 

[Maljam]

I think the whole microbiome science is still too early for people to definitively say how to approach it. Your plan seems a complete gamble, it may work, but I would bet it would leave you worse than before, some people develop real problems after taking an antibiotic or probiotic, let alone multiples of each, there simply isn't the research to say how it will end.

What were you eating before this? If I were you I'd completely overhaul your diet. Actually eating and chewing I think is under emphasized on the forum. Finding a solid base for your diet, a mixed of all the macros, would do wonders for your digestive health.

I personally recovered my digestive issues with a diet of boiled potatoes, small amounts of veg I tolerate and meat as the foundation of each of my meals. It took a long time of doing this to recover. Thats another thing, gut issues take a long time to recover from. I now eat much more relaxed.

 

[Brandin]

I think the whole microbiome science is still too early for people to definitively say how to approach it. Your plan seems a complete gamble, it may work, but I would bet it would leave you worse than before, some people develop real problems after taking an antibiotic or probiotic, let alone multiples of each, there simply isn't the research to say how it will end.

What were you eating before this? If I were you I'd completely overhaul your diet. Actually eating and chewing I think is under emphasized on the forum. Finding a solid base for your diet, a mixed of all the macros, would do wonders for your digestive health.

I personally recovered my digestive issues with a diet of boiled potatoes, small amounts of veg I tolerate and meat as the foundation of each of my meals. It took a long time of doing this to recover. Thats another thing, gut issues take a long time to recover from. I now eat much more relaxed.

Yeah thanks for the input. I dont work all that well on starch. I feel really good on white sugar, honey and such as carbs scources. I have lately been suspecting its possibly because of an calcium/magnesium imbalance. I dont wanna decrease my calcium tho cause other than the constipation I feel great on it. I would add magnesium bicarbonate but its not available around here and its ridicously expensive to buy from outside of scandinavia to sweden.

 

[Maljam]

Yeah thanks for the input. I dont work all that well on starch. I feel really good on white sugar, honey and such as carbs scources. I have lately been suspecting its possibly because of an calcium/magnesium imbalance. I dont wanna decrease my calcium tho cause other than the constipation I feel great on it. I would add magnesium bicarbonate but its not available around here and its ridicously expensive to buy from outside of scandinavia to sweden.

I don't know how I forgot but saturated fat was the most beneficial part of my digestive recovery and I think that was the main thing that helped me.

Have you tried goat dairy instead of the cow? Travis made several fantastic posts on the opioid potential of cow dairy which could be causing the constipation.

For what reason are you wanting calcium so high? 4 litres of milk is pretty excessive.

 

[Brandin]

I don't know how I forgot but saturated fat was the most beneficial part of my digestive recovery and I think that was the main thing that helped me.

Have you tried goat dairy instead of the cow? Travis made several fantastic posts on the opioid potential of cow dairy which could be causing the constipation.

For what reason are you wanting calcium so

I don't know how I forgot but saturated fat was the most beneficial part of my digestive recovery and I think that was the main thing that helped me.

Have you tried goat dairy instead of the cow? Travis made several fantastic posts on the opioid potential of cow dairy which could be causing the constipation.

For what reason are you wanting calcium so high? 4 litres of milk is pretty excessive.

I experience aome pro androgenic effects from sat fats wich is awesome. I guess I could cut back on dairy soon. I think it stems from an insecurity. I was during my whole childhood an malnourished insomniac so my bonestructure is alot smaller than my brothers. In reality im pretty big (wide shoulders and thick bones) so it clearly is not to do with comparing to societys standard but more so me knowing what I could have been paired with my addiction to strenght and performance. Same reason why I started working out. Come to think of it it might be good it all happened cause of the fact I maybe wouldnt ever have started working out otherwise...

I don't know how I forgot but saturated fat was the most beneficial part of my digestive recovery and I think that was the main thing that helped me.

Have you tried goat dairy instead of the cow? Travis made several fantastic posts on the opioid potential of cow dairy which could be causing the constipation.

For what reason are you wanting calcium so high? 4 litres of milk is pretty excessive.

I experience some pro androgenic effects from sat fats wich is awesome. I guess I could cut back on dairy soon. I think it stems from an insecurity. I was during my whole childhood an malnourished insomniac so my bonestructure is alot smaller than my brothers. In reality im pretty big (wide shoulders and thick bones) so it clearly is not to do with comparing to societys standard but more so me knowing what I could have been paired with my addiction to strenght and performance. Same reason why I started working out. Come to think of it it might be good it all happened cause of the fact I maybe wouldnt ever have started working out otherwise...

Goat milk would have been awesome but rn I live at home with my parents tryna get a jobb (this covid really ****88 my life over, graduated right in this bs mess...).
When I get a jobb I hope to remember trying it out!

 

[gaze]

for what it's worth, i asked ray if there's an upper limit of calcium from diet, and he said no. basically the more you can get without displacing other foods the better. (at least in his opinion)

in terms of digestion issues, what type of issues exactly? bloating or gas? or more like pain

 

[Brandin]

for what it's worth, i asked ray if there's an upper limit of calcium from diet, and he said no. basically the more you can get without displacing other foods the better. (at least in his opinion)

in terms of digestion issues, what type of issues exactly? bloating or gas? or more like pain

thats the idea I had aswell. I do have magnesium carbonate/calcium carbonate supplement wich I have just started. Yesterday I added some to oj and slept the best I have in along time. I think aslong as you get enough k2 and d3 it should not be a problem right??

I used to be very constipated all the time. I would not say I am that bloated.

 

[Brandin]

thats the idea I had aswell. I do have magnesium carbonate/calcium carbonate supplement wich I have just started. Yesterday I added some to oj and slept the best I have in along time. I think aslong as you get enough k2 and d3 it should not be a problem right??

I used to be very constipated all the time. I would not say I am that bloated.

I guess I could just try some beneficial strains. There are a few as I have heard that actually lower endotoxin.

I am abit worried that I will become to empathetic tho. I have had to really work on my behavior to not act on my empathy. Working out helped alot.

Couldnt the high empathy be a sign that I do not have much bacteria at all? Especially if u pair it with the fact that I am overly empathetic while having Adhd.

So overly empathetic with low funtioning dopamine system must correlate with very low serotonin... right??

 

[Elize]

Have you looked into having issues with histamine liberating reactions to foods and medications and also see salycilates could be an issue too. Asprin, coffee tea and food high in salicylates also contribute to gut issues. I am in the USA but when I was in South Africa antibiotics are always prescribed together with a strong probiotic.

 

[mostlylurking]

Hi I have had digestive issues all my life. I have seen people being pro probiotics and people being pro antibiotics. I have long thought about this possibly stupid idea (extremely expensive aswell...) to mega dose specific beneficial strains while also taking a strong antibiotic and megadosing that.

This would be done at the same time. I was thinking to ingest beneficial strains faster than they die while the bad would die without readding them through supplementation.

I was thinking double strenght twice a day (or more) dose of antibiotic. megadosing 5 servings of specific strains (or more) multiple times a day...

Is this feasable? or will the megadosing of antibiotics completely ruin me???

I am getting desperate lmao...
any advice/discussing would be appreciated.

Are you eating cooked mushrooms? Ray Peat recommended eating cooked mushrooms (did not mention carrots) to me when I emailed him about my gut problem.

Also, for your consideration, this study: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/acm.2011.0840 Thiamine and Fatigue in Inflammatory Bowel Diseases: An Open-label Pilot Study.

and this: Vitamin B1, anti-estrogenic, pro-DHT, anti-serotonin, pro-dopamine » MENELITE here's a quote: "The complete inactivation of estradiol in the liver is dependent on vitamin B1 and B2." and this: "A deficiency in thiamine also increases serotonin synthesis and decreases its uptake, resulting in a stronger action of serotonin, which antagonizes dopamine further."

and this article by Lonsdale: A Review of the Biochemistry, Metabolism and Clinical Benefits of Thiamin(e) and Its Derivatives . Slog through it; it covers a lot of ground. Here's an excerpt:

Thiamine Deficiency Related to Other Nutrients​

"Although the full extent of nutrient interdependency is far from fully known, there is certainly evidence that thiamine activity is related to other non-caloric nutrients. For example, calcium and magnesium deficiency affects thiamine distribution in rat liver (65) and magnesium has a particularly important role since it is reported to aggravate thiamine deficiency (66). Administration of magnesium, high energy phosphates, piracetam and thiamine affected erythrocyte transketolase activity (67). A physiological concentration of magnesium can be shown to regulate TPP binding to the thiA riboswitch RNA (68)."

and finally, there's this intro video to thiamine deficiency:

 

[mostlylurking]

So overly empathetic with low funtioning dopamine system must correlate with very low serotonin... right??

I think you've got this backwards. You do NOT want to encourage/increase serotonin. You want to try to minimize it.

refer to this:

and this: Vitamin B1, anti-estrogenic, pro-DHT, anti-serotonin, pro-dopamine » MENELITE here's a quote: "The complete inactivation of estradiol in the liver is dependent on vitamin B1 and B2." and this: "A deficiency in thiamine also increases serotonin synthesis and decreases its uptake, resulting in a stronger action of serotonin, which antagonizes dopamine further."

 

[Brandin]

I think you've got this backwards. You do NOT want to encourage/increase serotonin. You want to try to minimize it.

refer to this:

No i do know this. Wym. Im just saying this must mean that adding only beneficial strains could make my gut perfect if the theory I just said was the thruth. Im not gonna raise serotonin haha...

 

[Brandin]

Are you eating cooked mushrooms? Ray Peat recommended eating cooked mushrooms (did not mention carrots) to me when I emailed him about my gut problem.

Also, for your consideration, this study: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/full/10.1089/acm.2011.0840 Thiamine and Fatigue in Inflammatory Bowel Diseases: An Open-label Pilot Study.

and this: Vitamin B1, anti-estrogenic, pro-DHT, anti-serotonin, pro-dopamine » MENELITE here's a quote: "The complete inactivation of estradiol in the liver is dependent on vitamin B1 and B2." and this: "A deficiency in thiamine also increases serotonin synthesis and decreases its uptake, resulting in a stronger action of serotonin, which antagonizes dopamine further."

and this article by Lonsdale: A Review of the Biochemistry, Metabolism and Clinical Benefits of Thiamin(e) and Its Derivatives . Slog through it; it covers a lot of ground. Here's an excerpt:

Thiamine Deficiency Related to Other Nutrients​

"Although the full extent of nutrient interdependency is far from fully known, there is certainly evidence that thiamine activity is related to other non-caloric nutrients. For example, calcium and magnesium deficiency affects thiamine distribution in rat liver (65) and magnesium has a particularly important role since it is reported to aggravate thiamine deficiency (66). Administration of magnesium, high energy phosphates, piracetam and thiamine affected erythrocyte transketolase activity (67). A physiological concentration of magnesium can be shown to regulate TPP binding to the thiA riboswitch RNA (68)."

and finally, there's this intro video to thiamine deficiency:

Thanks for the long answer. After thinking about this topic alot I have come to the conclusion that adding more magnesium and some of the few beneficial strains of bacteria should help. My point with the adhd and overly empathetic text was not about saying serotonin is good. My argument was that I have pro dopamine to serotonin ratio eventho my dopamine seems tanked. This would suggest also very low serotonin.

The reason I said that was to enforce my possible theory that I might actually have bacterial undergrowth. I am not going to add things that would increase serotonin, that would be a huge mistake lmao.

 

[LLight]

As you have asked for "any advice", I'll give mine, which won't be the "consensus" of this forum (if there exists one) or perfectly aligned with RP ideas:

Drop the liquid diet and eat solid meals with some fluids but not more than a glass by meal. Do not drink between meals.

For some reason and in my impression, immunity and gut/liver health (via LXR/FXR, bile acids, cholesterol metabolism) seem to be connected to fluid homeostasis and drinking too much/too often could disturb them.

Water Structure, Osmolytes And Cancer

Could dehydration increase the "detoxification enzymes" aldehyde oxydase / xanthine dehydrogenase? These enzymes both require the element molybdenum, which has been found to be helpful in case of dehydrating conditions in plants. Molybdenum seems to help with osmolytes synthesis or uptake...

raypeatforum.com

 

[mostlylurking]

I guess I could just try some beneficial strains. There are a few as I have heard that actually lower endotoxin.

I am abit worried that I will become to empathetic tho. I have had to really work on my behavior to not act on my empathy. Working out helped alot.

Couldnt the high empathy be a sign that I do not have much bacteria at all? Especially if u pair it with the fact that I am overly empathetic while having Adhd.

So overly empathetic with low funtioning dopamine system must correlate with very low serotonin... right??

I'll try again. I am trying to provide you with information to show you that being overly empathetic correlates with high serotonin, not low serotonin.

Here is this study:

Serotonin selectively influences moral judgment and behavior through effects on harm aversion​

Serotonin selectively influences moral judgment and behavior through effects on harm aversion
Aversive emotional reactions to real or imagined social harms infuse moral judgment and motivate prosocial behavior. Here, we show that the neurotransmitter serotonin directly alters both moral judgment and behavior through increasing subjects’ aversion to personally harming others.

 

[Maljam]

As you have asked for "any advice", I'll give mine, which won't be the "consensus" of this forum (if there exists one) or perfectly aligned with RP ideas:

Drop the liquid diet and eat solid meals with some fluids but not more than a glass by meal. Do not drink between meals.

For some reason and in my impression, immunity and gut/liver health (via LXR/FXR, bile acids, cholesterol metabolism) seem to be connected to fluid homeostasis and drinking too much/too often could disturb them.

Water Structure, Osmolytes And Cancer

Could dehydration increase the "detoxification enzymes" aldehyde oxydase / xanthine dehydrogenase? These enzymes both require the element molybdenum, which has been found to be helpful in case of dehydrating conditions in plants. Molybdenum seems to help with osmolytes synthesis or uptake...

raypeatforum.com

I am intrigued by your theory and I have heard about not drinking during meals, but if you say don't drink between meals, when do you think someone should drink?

 

[ilhanxx]

You should increase acidity level of intestinal system. Probiotic supplements or fermented foods are harmfull. 1-2 gr daily vitamin c helps to reduce endotoxin overload and increase stomach acid. sometimes cascara or senna extract can be a good option for gut movement.