Acid / Alkaline

Discussion in 'Acidity vs. Alkalinity' started by pboy, May 12, 2013.

  1. pboy

    pboy Member

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    So one of the other popular diet topics these days is about food PH, those having an alkaline PH deemed healthy, and easily digestible, whereas those with an acid PH are considered unhealthy, robbing minerals, tough on digestion, and should be limited or avoided. Of course, the main things that are 'healthy' are vegetables, raw food, PUFA oils, berries and the 'unhealthy' are meat, eggs, cheese, grains, chocolate, coffee, soda, sugar, some fruit juices. A lot of websites flip back and forth on a lot of the foods, such as with fruit, nuts, legumes and dairy. I was just wondering what people thought about this, and maybe some experience. To me personally, it doesn't have bearing and doesn't make sense.

    Considering the stomach acid PH is more acidic than any of those foods, even alcohol, wouldn't it not matter anyways the PH of the food entering the stomach? And actually...the more alkaline it is, would it not then require the body more effort to then bring the PH way down to normal gastric levels? (to activate pepsin and other stomach enzymes). Soda was always thought of as being a digestive aid and stomach calmer in the past, a tonic, hence the name Pepsi (likened to pepsin, the stomach digestive enzyme). Also...everytime you eat, and throughout the day, your stomach releases its juices into the intestines...so you are pretty much introducing highly acidic fluids, more acidic than any food you would eat, into your intestines everyday, throughout the day, even if you ate nothing but herbs and vegetables.

    Just wondering if anyone else has any experience or insights into this...I know that when I was eating a lot of raw food and fiberous foods, my digestion got weaker and weaker. But at the same time, meat seems to weaken my digestion or make it sluggish if I eat too much also...I handle cheese, soda, coffee, cream, sugar, broths...things like that the best, small amounts of the more acidic fruit juices...to me it seems like it doesn't really matter how acid or alkaline the food is, but rather how simple, digestible, lack of insolubles, and/or predigested or broken down it is that makes the difference, and that we should simply try to put as little stress on the stomach as possible. Does this view fit in with a Peat perspective? (Maybe I'm totally wrong and have such a weak digestion that those are the only foods I can handle)
     
  2. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    The way Ray Peat explains acid and alkaline is the end result of ingested food. He terms sodium,calcium,magnesium and potassium as alkalizing minerals and phosphorus as acidifying. Meat, beans, nuts and grains are very high in phosphorus compared to calcium. Milk, veg and fruits are rich in calcium, magnesium and potassium, thus alkalizing. The ratio of calcium and phosphorus is extremely important. I feel much better cutting down meat and fish.
     
  3. OP
    pboy

    pboy Member

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    ah indeed indeed, makes sense
     
  4. Dutchie

    Dutchie Member

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    I keep wondering about it too,but there are actually so many cintradicting lists out there that i dont know anymore which one to believe. Aside it is said that the blood needs to be sligthly alkaline,yet the gut sligthly acidic and i think off-balance can cause problems,fatigue etc.
    I guess the mineral composition would indeed make sense,but i also think its about liver detoxing correctly,leaky gut,nutrient balance/absorption etc. I mean there are certain people,mostly rugged men,who eat nothing but sandwhich with lots of meat,bacon&eggs,pizza etc.and thriveon these acid foods fine.

    so as far as the theory....i think what is causing an too acidic body depends on the person and their health such as being able to detox correctly,guthealth,nutrient uptake,stress(read somewhere that even negative thougths can turn a body acidic....i wonder how that works) etc.

    you mentioned beans&phospor.....vanilla&chocolate are also from beans:'(......would skim cacaopowder be less harmfull than those very dark chocolate bars. For some reason they dont taste as good to me in comparison to milk&white chocolate which are much lower in cacao yet unfortunately you cant escape the cacaobutter....or you somehow have. to be able to make your own milkchocolate with cacaopowder
     
  5. jaketthomas

    jaketthomas Member

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    Any food that contains more phosphorus than calcium is acidic. Any food that contains more calcium than phosphorus is alkaline. It's really pretty simple.

    Meat is acidic. Eggs are acidic. Cheese and Milk are alkaline. Most fruit is neutral, with a few exceptions... Figs, Prickly Pears, and Oranges (All SUPER alkaline, especially figs and prickly pears). Most green vegetables are alkaline, but they are also difficult to digest, and a lot of them contain goitrogens and anti-nutrients.

    If you drink a lot of OJ and Milk, you can deviate and eat a lot of acid forming foods, such as meats, eggs, mexican cokes, etc. But I'm willing to bet most of you are consuming a mild to very acidic "Ray Peat" diet, and wonder why it's not working for you.

    I make sure I stay highly alkaline with milk, cream, cheese, OJ, figs, and prickly pears (and fresh prickly pear juice). Then I do consume my acid forming foods like beef, shrimp, coffee, and eggs. And I also eat a bunch of neutral stuff like cherries, grapes, watermelon, pineapple, etc.

    Eating ONLY alkaline foods is madness, and it would take one strict mofo in order to pull that off. Of course, the greatest tasting foods are all acid forming, lol. I won't give up my beef, occasional Mexican Cokes, and my shrimp cocktails under any circumstance!

    If I feel like my alkaline forming foods are down for the day, I take a tsp or two of eggshell calcium, and I'm good to go. You only need eggshell calcium powder when you're in a negative alkaline state. Otherwise, I don't see the point. There's only so much calcium you can absorb in a day.

    Oh, and lastly, refined sugar is neutral by nature, but it has an acidic effect on the body, because it requires a matrix of alkaline minerals to be used properly. Using lots of added sugar on top of an acidic diet is like pouring lighter fluid onto a fire.
     
  6. Dutchie

    Dutchie Member

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    dairy is usually being tagged as acidic,especially cheese as are all. Animalproteins. I think i read once that gelatin is an exception. and eggyolks are supposed to be alkaline.
    Fruits neutral?i wouldve thougth fruit and most veggies are alkaline? I dont drink oj,bc i never liked oranges and bc of the higher free fructose. Would you mind to share a list of your acid alkaline theory foods?
    What about natural sugars such as raw cane,maple syrup,coconut and palmsugar,honey?

    Btw,i always keep looking at your avatar.....is that you?bc that guy looks so young but the pic also looks like a screencap from some computergame.
     
  7. OP
    pboy

    pboy Member

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    I think what I take away from Jake and listening to Peat interviews...that at If at the end of the day you've taken in more calcium than phosphorus you're good. I've looked at dairy nutrition facts dutchie, and it seems that only cottage cheese has more phosphorus than calcium (why this is I don't know). All others have a little more calcium or a near even amount. This would indicate that most meat and beans would be highly acidic (lots of phosphorus but nearly no calcium)...grains, nuts, and seeds being only slightly behind (besides sesame and poppy...but high PUFA). Vegetables would be the most alkaline, particularly leaves and flowers, but due to naturally present toxins, fibers, and the shear amount you'd have to eat, they may be only beneficial as spices, teas, broths, or generally small amounts and in balance. Fruits, especially citrus, kiwi, and figs would be slightly to moderately alkaline...and you can generally consume them in higher amounts, so something such as OJ would be great at buffering/offsetting the acidity from meat you may eat and also doesn't mess up your digestion in the process. Chocolate is actually a nut...high in phosphorus and nearly no calcium (therefore acidic), but is so high in copper, chromium, antioxidants, and xanthines that it is still overall beneficial to consume, probably about 1-1.5oz a day of 100% cocoa is safe and beneficial, and if you had a really high calcium intake you could up this even more (I think Ive eaten 4-5oz before in a day...but I wouldn't recommend this lol)

    *sugars....They'd all actually be slightly alkaline (cane, palm, maple), maple being the most, but the amounts of calcium/phosphorus are very low either way so they wouldn't really
    effect your overall daily balance very much if at all

    Apparently from what Ray says...even negative thoughts can increase endotoxin absorption (therefore increase acidity) as well as when your cells are producing lactic acid instead of CO2, lactic acid can build up and therefore acidity also. So a positive outlook and healthy metabolism both help keep your body from wasting alkaline buffers....and I suppose if you were under more stress, this would call for more calcium to feel calm and good

    *edit, just listened to a Peat interview where he said "at the very least don't go over a 2 times ratio of phosphorus : calcium", so you can have more phosphorus than calcium and remain relatively alkaline while in a pretty healthy state, but preferably not too much
     
  8. jaketthomas

    jaketthomas Member

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    Great job pboy, bringing up positive or negative thoughts. I forgot to mention that. Positive thoughts are alkalizing, and negative thoughts and stress can be HIGHLY acidifying, based on the level of your negativity/stress. Excellent point.

    Agreed about chocolate. It does have its benefits, but eat too much of it, and it causes an adrenaline spike, as well as a ton of phosphorus in relation to calcium. In smaller doses, it can be beneficial.

    You want a highly alkaline sweetener? Blackstrap molasses. It's one of the most alkaline foods known to man. Tastes like ***t (like a weird black licorice), but it's insane how alkalizing it is. 117mg of calcium, to 5mg of phosphorus in 2 teaspoons. It may be one of the most alkaline foods on the planet. I'm not a fan of it, but I've used it before with a lot of positive effects (if you can stomach the taste). I know some people who have taken as much as 2-4 TBSP per day. 4 TBSP of blackstrap molasses has 702mg of calcium to 30mg of phosphorus. Almost comically alkaline.
     
  9. Dutchie

    Dutchie Member

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    Ive read that too about the thougths,but even thougths/emotions are part of complicated life and metabolic processes,nutrient shorages etc.

    I have the blackstrap,but like youve said,it really tastes horrible and not even sweet. Probably why i like raw cane sugar so much,bc it still has some molasses left in it but not the horrible taste....and high in iron.
     
  10. Atalanta

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  11. Atalanta

    Atalanta Member

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    It is not that simple.
    Why would none of the other alkaline/alkaline earth minerals affect alkalinity?
    Where did you get the information that only the calcium/phosphorous ratio affects the pH?

    What exactly is a mild to very acidic "Ray Peat" diet?

    Define "negative alkaline state". What are the symptoms?
    Why wouldn't a teaspoon of salt (sodium) do the same thing as egg shell powder (with regard to balancing alkalinity)?
    Wouldn't a little baking soda alkalize as well as or even better than the egg shell powder?
    I don't understand your chemistry.

    The body excretes excess phosphorus, so unless you are ingesting much more phosphorous than calcium, you don't need to worry about balancing calcium and phosphorus with extra calcium. Since the body can absorb a limited amount of calcium, isn't the extra calcium wasted if you are not able to digest and absorb it?
     
  12. Wagner83

    Wagner83 Member

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    After noticing bad reflux with onions, pineapples, kiwi fruits, white rice, chicken breast and apple juice, I decided to dig a bit into the issue (lowering kiwi fruits, onions and pineapples help).

    The Alkaline Diet: Is There Evidence That an Alkaline pH Diet Benefits Health?

    [...]
    Measurement of pH of the urine (reviewed in a recent study with two morning specimens done over a five-year span) did not predict bone fractures or loss of bone mineral density [16]. However, this may not be reflective of being on an alkaline or acid diet throughout this time. For more details, see Table 1
    [...]
    3. Chronic Acidosis and Bone Disease

    Calcium in the form of phosphates and carbonates represents a large reservoir of base in our body. In response to an acid load such as the modern diet these salts are released into the systemic circulation to bring about pH homeostasis [7]. It has been estimated that the quantity of calcium lost in the urine with the modern diet over time could be as high as almost 480 gm over 20 years or almost half the skeletal mass of calcium [21]. However, urinary losses of calcium are not a direct measure of osteoporosis. There are many regulatory factors that may compensate for the urinary calcium loss. When the arterial pH is in the normal range, a mild reduction of plasma bicarbonate results in a negative calcium balance which could benefit from supplementing bicarbonate in the form of potassium bicarbonate [22]. It has been found that bicarbonate, which increases the alkali content of a diet, but not potassium may attenuate bone loss in healthy older adults [23]. The bone minerals that are wasted in the urine may not have complete compensation through intestinal absorption, which is thought to result in osteoporosis. However, adequate vitamin D with a 25(OH)D level of >80 nmol/L may allow for appropriate intestinal absorption of calcium and magnesium and phosphate when needed [24]. Sadly, most populations are generally deficient in vitamin D especially in northern climates [25]. In chronic renal failure, correction of metabolic acidosis with bicarbonate significantly improves parathyroid levels and levels of the active form of vitamin D 1,25(OH)2D3 [26]. Recently, a study has shown the importance of phosphate in Remer's PRAL formula. According to the formula it would be expected that an increase in phosphate should result in an increase in urinary calcium loss and a negative calcium balance in bone [27]. * It should be noted that supplementation with phosphate in patients with bed rest reduced urinary calcium excretion but did not prevent bone loss [28]. The most recent systematic review and meta-analysis has shown that calcium balance is maintained and improved with phosphate which is quite contrary to the acid-ash hypothesis [29]. As well a recent study looking at soda intake (which has a significant amount of phosphate) and osteoporosis in postmenopausal American first nations women did not find a correlation [30]. It is quite possible that the high acid content according to Remer's classification needs to be looked at again in light of compensatory phosphate intake. There is online information promoting an alkaline diet for bone health as well as a number of books. However, a recent systematic review of the literature looking for evidence supporting the alkaline diet for bone health found no protective role of dietary acid load in osteoporosis [31].

    *An other point against rice and potatoes? Enough to detour one away from them towards sweet potatoes and perhaps other tubers?

    Another element of the modern diet is the excess of sodium in the diet. There is evidence that in healthy humans the increased sodium in the diet can predict the degree of hyperchloremic metabolic acidosis when consuming a net acid producing diet [32]. As well, there is evidence that there are adverse effects of sodium chloride in the aging population. A high sodium diet will exacerbate disuse-induced bone and muscle loss during immobilization by increasing bone resorption and protein wasting [33]. Excess dietary sodium has been shown to result in hypertension and osteoporosis in women [34, 35]. As well, dietary potassium which is lacking in the modern diet would modulate pressor and hypercalciuric effects of excess of sodium chloride [36].

    Excess dietary protein with high acid renal load may decrease bone density if not buffered by ingestion of supplements or foods that are alkali rich [37]. However, adequate protein is necessary for prevention of osteoporosis and sarcopenia; therefore, increasing the amount of fruit and vegetables may be necessary rather than reducing protein [38].


    4. Alkaline Diets and Muscle

    As we age, there is a loss of muscle mass, which may predispose to falls and fractures. A three-year study looking at a diet rich in potassium, such as fruits and vegetables, as well as a reduced acid load, resulted in preservation of muscle mass in older men and women [39]. Conditions such as chronic renal failure that result in chronic metabolic acidosis result in accelerated breakdown in skeletal muscle [40]. Correction of acidosis may preserve muscle mass in conditions where muscle wasting is common such as diabetic ketosis, trauma, sepsis, chronic obstructive lung disease, and renal failure [41]. In situations that result in acute acidosis, supplementing younger patients with sodium bicarbonate prior to exhaustive exercise resulted in significantly less acidosis in the blood than those that were not supplemented with sodium bicarbonate [42].


    Effects of acidogenic diet forms on musculoskeletal function. - PubMed - NCBI
    Abstract
    Chronic metabolic acidosis exerts well-characterized consequences on musculoskeletal function, including physicochemical dissolution of bone with calcium loss from bone, cellular effects on osteoblasts and osteoclasts and disturbed bone matrix mineralization. These mechanisms are responsible for the acidotic bone phenotype with features of both osteoporosis and osteomalacia. In addition, loss of muscle mass, sarcopenia and negative nitrogen balance are consequences of metabolic acidosis. It is becoming increasingly clear that these effects also occur as a consequence of the diet-induced acid loads characteristic of modern diets. Interventional, short- and long-term studies suggest that the result of neutralizing the diet-induced acid loads is skeletal calcium retention, decreased bone resorption and increases in bone mineral density, suggesting that such an intervention may have an important potential to prevent osteoporosis.

    The Effect of Buffering High Acid Load Meal with Sodium Bicarbonate on Postprandial Glucose Metabolism in Humans—A Randomized Placebo-Controlled Study
    Background: High dietary acid load relates to increased risk of type 2 diabetes in epidemiological studies. We aimed to investigate whether buffering a high acid load meal with an alkalizing treatment changes glucose metabolism post meal. Methods: Non-diabetic participants (n = 32) were randomized to receive either 1680 mg NaHCO3 or placebo, followed by a high acid load meal in a double-blind placebo-controlled crossover (1–4 weeks apart) study. Thirty (20 men) participants completed the study. Venous blood pH, serum bicarbonate, blood glucose, serum insulin, C-peptide, non-esterified fatty acid (NEFA), and plasma glucagon-like peptide-1 (GLP-1) concentrations were measured at baseline (fasting) and at 15–30 min intervals for 3 h post meal. Results: The treatment was well tolerated. Venous blood pH declined in the first 15 min post meal with the placebo (p = 0.001), but not with NaHCO3 (p = 0.86) and remained decreased with the placebo for 3 h (pinteraction = 0.04). On average over the 3 h blood pH iAUC was greater with NaHCO3 compared with placebo (p = 0.02). However, postprandial glucose, insulin, C-peptide, NEFA and GLP-1 were not different between treatments (pinteraction ≥ 0.07). Conclusions: An alkalizing medication administered pre-meal has no acute effect on glycaemia and insulin response in healthy individuals. Long-term interventions in at-risk populations are necessary to investigate the effect of sustained alkalization on glucose metabolism.

    [...]

    Following a meal, arterial stiffness decreases as a component of the body’s response to insulin, a drop that is attenuated in insulin resistance [18]. In the present study, arterial stiffness tended to decrease after the bicarbonate treatment compared with placebo. Similarly, bicarbonate is known to decrease arterial stiffness when added to haemodialysis fluids [29], however, the mechanism for this phenomenon has not been elucidated and requires further study. **

    **CO2?


    From the @Travis institute:

    Diet, evolution and aging--the pathophysiologic effects of the post-agricultural inversion of the potassium-to-sodium and base-to-chloride ratios i... - PubMed - NCBI
    Our group has shown that contemporary net acid-producing diets do indeed characteristically produce a low-grade systemic metabolic acidosis in otherwise healthy adult subjects, and that the degree of acidosis increases with age, in relation to the normally occurring age-related decline in renal functional capacity. We also found that neutralization of the diet net acid load with dietary supplements of potassium bicarbonate (KHCO3) improved calcium and phosphorus balances, reduced bone resorption rates, improved nitrogen balance, and mitigated the normally occurring age-related decline in growth hormone secretion--all without restricting dietary NaCl. Moreover, we found that co-administration of an alkalinizing salt of potassium (potassium citrate) with NaCl prevented NaCl from increasing urinary calcium excretion and bone resorption, as occurred with NaCl administration alone. Earlier studies estimated dietary acid load from the amount of animal protein in the diet, inasmuch as protein metabolism yields sulfuric acid as an end-product. In cross-cultural epidemiologic studies, Abelow found that hip fracture incidence in older women correlated with animal protein intake, and they suggested a causal relation to the acid load from protein. Those studies did not consider the effect of potential sources of base in the diet. We considered that estimating the net acid load of the diet (i. e., acid minus base) would require considering also the intake of plant foods, many of which are rich sources of K-base, or more precisely base precursors, substances like organic anions that the body metabolizes to bicarbonate. In following up the findings of Abelow et al., we found that plant food intake tended to be protective against hip fracture, and that hip fracture incidence among countries correlated inversely with the ratio of plant-to-animal food intake. These findings were confirmed in a more homogeneous population of white elderly women residents of the U.S. These findings support affirmative answers to the questions we asked above. Can we provide dietary guidelines for controlling dietary net acid loads to minimize or eliminate diet-induced and age-amplified chronic low-grade metabolic acidosis and its pathophysiological sequelae. We discuss the use of algorithms to predict the diet net acid and provide nutritionists and clinicians with relatively simple and reliable methods for determining and controlling the net acid load of the diet. A more difficult question is what level of acidosis is acceptable. We argue that any level of acidosis may be unacceptable from an evolutionarily perspective, and indeed, that a low-grade metabolic alkalosis may be the optimal acid-base state for humans.
     
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