Aautoimmune disease, lactic acid and thiamine...

[Trullo]

If lactic acid limits mobility of lymphocytes and cause autoimmunity, can thiamine reverse it?

Lactate at the crossroads of metabolism, inflammation, and autoimmunity​

Abstract​

For a long time after its discovery at the beginning of the 20th century, lactate was considered a waste product of cellular metabolism. Starting in the early '90s, however, lactate has begun to be recognized as an active molecule capable of modulating the immune response. Inflammatory sites, including in rheumatoid arthritis (RA) synovitis, are characterized by the accumulation of lactate, which is partly responsible for the establishment of an acidic environment. We have recently reported that T cells sense lactate via the expression of specific transporters, leading to inhibition of their motility. Importantly, this "stop migration signal" is dependent upon lactate's interference with intracellular metabolic pathways, specifically glycolysis. Furthermore, lactate promotes the switch of CD4+ T cells to an IL-17+ subset, and reduces the cytolytic capacity of CD8+ T cells. These phenomena might be responsible for the formation of ectopic lymphoid structures and autoantibody production in inflammatory sites such as in RA synovitis, Sjogren syndrome salivary glands, and multiple sclerosis plaques. Here, we review the roles of lactate in the modulation of the inflammatory immune response.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27883186/

Severe lactic acidosis reversed by thiamine within 24 hours​

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3388689/

 

[Peatness]

This is the full article

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/eji.201646477

 

[HeyThere]

Throughout my self-educating adventures, i am finding out B1 is massively needed for countless things, and that we are very deficient in it, like Magnesium, etc.

 

[J.R.K]

If lactic acid limits mobility of lymphocytes and cause autoimmunity, can thiamine reverse it?

Lactate at the crossroads of metabolism, inflammation, and autoimmunity​

Abstract​

For a long time after its discovery at the beginning of the 20th century, lactate was considered a waste product of cellular metabolism. Starting in the early '90s, however, lactate has begun to be recognized as an active molecule capable of modulating the immune response. Inflammatory sites, including in rheumatoid arthritis (RA) synovitis, are characterized by the accumulation of lactate, which is partly responsible for the establishment of an acidic environment. We have recently reported that T cells sense lactate via the expression of specific transporters, leading to inhibition of their motility. Importantly, this "stop migration signal" is dependent upon lactate's interference with intracellular metabolic pathways, specifically glycolysis. Furthermore, lactate promotes the switch of CD4+ T cells to an IL-17+ subset, and reduces the cytolytic capacity of CD8+ T cells. These phenomena might be responsible for the formation of ectopic lymphoid structures and autoantibody production in inflammatory sites such as in RA synovitis, Sjogren syndrome salivary glands, and multiple sclerosis plaques. Here, we review the roles of lactate in the modulation of the inflammatory immune response.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27883186/

Severe lactic acidosis reversed by thiamine within 24 hours​

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3388689/

This could be a problem for diabetics using Metformin @mostlylurking posted this.

Metformin Is a Substrate and Inhibitor of the Human Thiamine Transporter, THTR-2 (SLC19A3) - PubMed

The biguanide metformin is widely used as first-line therapy for the treatment of type 2 diabetes. Predominately a cation at physiological pH's, metformin is transported by membrane transporters, which play major roles in its absorption and disposition. Recently, our laboratory demonstrated that...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[mostlylurking]

Throughout my self-educating adventures, i am finding out B1 is massively needed for countless things, and that we are very deficient in it, like Magnesium, etc.

Yep. It makes me wonder what ulterior motive the Powers that Be had when they set the rda for thiamine so low.

 

[J.R.K]

Yep. It makes me wonder what ulterior motive the Powers that Be had when they set the rda for thiamine so low.

Also curious is why thiamine deficiency is so widespread given its availability in white flour, pork, beef, and vitamin supplements.

 

[TheCalciumCad]

Also curious is why thiamine deficiency is so widespread given its availability in white flour, pork, beef, and vitamin supplements.

Yep. It makes me wonder what ulterior motive the Powers that Be had when they set the rda for thiamine so low.

Caffeine and tannins from tea / coffee deplete Thiamine outside of the caffeine increasing demands.


View: https://twitter.com/realalejandroAD/status/1414747375021682697

 

[HeyThere]

Alcohol.

All supplements' daily amounts are grossly low from the guv.

 

[youngsinatra]

Anything that interferes with the oxidative phosphorylation causes a rise in lactate.

It can range from nutrient deficiencies (All B vitamins, selenium, copper, iron, zinc, vitamin E…) up to toxic elements that interfere with energy production. (mercury/lead/arsenic/iron and much more…)

 

[mostlylurking]

Also curious is why thiamine deficiency is so widespread given its availability in white flour, pork, beef, and vitamin supplements.

Ignorance and eating/drinking empty calories (giant sized soft drinks, candy, etc.). And also alcohol which is the most notorious reason for a thiamine deficiency. And PUFA!! Must not forget the PUFA issue re blocking thiamine!

 

[J.R.K]

Ignorance and eating/drinking empty calories (giant sized soft drinks, candy, etc.). And also alcohol which is the most notorious reason for a thiamine deficiency. And PUFA!! Must not forget the PUFA issue re blocking thiamine!

All good points that I can see having very real truths in them. I remember in my younger days my cousin always took a B complex after a night of imbibing to freely. He swore it was the best hangover prevention out there.
I believe. @haidut mentioned that diabetics are notoriously low in thiamine and niacinamide, but my query would be one of chicken or the egg on this, is this one of the co factors leading to the disease or a side effect of the medical industries preference for the drug Metformin.

 

[mostlylurking]

All good points that I can see having very real truths in them. I remember in my younger days my cousin always took a B complex after a night of imbibing to freely. He swore it was the best hangover prevention out there.
I believe. @haidut mentioned that diabetics are notoriously low in thiamine and niacinamide, but my query would be one of chicken or the egg on this, is this one of the co factors leading to the disease or a side effect of the medical industries preference for the drug Metformin.

I've read that diabetics' kidneys dump something like four times as much thiamine out of the body as normal. I don't know why that is though. Maybe a symptom of kidneys not functioning properly due to thiamine deficiency....

 

[J.R.K]

I've read that diabetics' kidneys dump something like four times as much thiamine out of the body as normal. I don't know why that is though. Maybe a symptom of kidneys not functioning properly due to thiamine deficiency....

Yes this is my point, is this a function of the disease, due to the high levels of excess lypolisis dumping high levels of fatty acids into the system and high levels of blood sugar due to glycolysis resulting in lactic acid. Or is it a function of Metformin. My deferral at this point is probably both as I reread my thoughts.
I have some type two diabetics in my friend group, as mentioned above in your post alcohol and mixed drinks which they believe they are helping their condition using aspartame and Splenda sweetened drinks instead of sugar, which seem to actually contribute to advancement of the disease.
This is a little like being forced to watch friends commit a slow suicide, I am considered to be the strange health guy in the group, so any opinion I offer will be discounted quickly, as there are two nurses in the group as well.

Interesting points from @TheCalciumCad on coffee an refined sugar above, with thiamine being your wheelhouse what are your thoughts on this?

 

[HealthisWealth]

yes thiamine is helpful. One of the other that help me caused i stop now taking levothyroxine. Im taking 100mg mononitrate

 

[mostlylurking]

Yes this is my point, is this a function of the disease, due to the high levels of excess lypolisis dumping high levels of fatty acids into the system and high levels of blood sugar due to glycolysis resulting in lactic acid. Or is it a function of Metformin. My deferral at this point is probably both as I reread my thoughts.
I have some type two diabetics in my friend group, as mentioned above in your post alcohol and mixed drinks which they believe they are helping their condition using aspartame and Splenda sweetened drinks instead of sugar, which seem to actually contribute to advancement of the disease.
This is a little like being forced to watch friends commit a slow suicide, I am considered to be the strange health guy in the group, so any opinion I offer will be discounted quickly, as there are two nurses in the group as well.

Interesting points from @TheCalciumCad on coffee an refined sugar above, with thiamine being your wheelhouse what are your thoughts on this?

As I understand it, all diabetics are thiamine deficient and Metformin makes it worse. Here's an article: Stop the Metformin Madness - Hormones Matter If you search for Metformin on this site, multiple articles show.

I'm active in a church sewing group; I get to watch almost all of the participants commit slow suicide every week. The other popular pastime for these people is to exchange stories about their various joint replacement surgeries. I really care for these people; it's gotten pretty hard to watch. They all think I'm nuts because I always bring my own food instead of just eating the poison they are eating.

I'm really not up on caffeine, sorry. I just know that I cannot tolerate coffee so I don't drink it. My negative experience with coffee was sudden and pretty severe; this happened when my thiamine function was blocked from taking Bactrim antibiotic a couple of months earlier.

 

[J.R.K]

As I understand it, all diabetics are thiamine deficient and Metformin makes it worse. Here's an article: Stop the Metformin Madness - Hormones Matter If you search for Metformin on this site, multiple articles show.

I'm active in a church sewing group; I get to watch almost all of the participants commit slow suicide every week. The other popular pastime for these people is to exchange stories about their various joint replacement surgeries. I really care for these people; it's gotten pretty hard to watch. They all think I'm nuts because I always bring my own food instead of just eating the poison they are eating.

I'm really not up on caffeine, sorry. I just know that I cannot tolerate coffee so I don't drink it. My negative experience with coffee was sudden and pretty severe; this happened when my thiamine function was blocked from taking Bactrim antibiotic a couple of months earlier.

It sounds like we share the same hobby I have a sister in law that is only fifty four with two knee replacements. I also know a friend that has a sister in her forties that just went through a hip replacement surgery. A couple weeks my friend commented,” my hip is getting really sore my two uncles and my sister had them done I sure hope it’s not my turn yet, but oh well it’s just genetics what can you do”?
My thoughts on these observations is these people are way to young for these “ procedures” to be done.

 

[mostlylurking]

It sounds like we share the same hobby I have a sister in law that is only fifty four with two knee replacements. I also know a friend that has a sister in her forties that just went through a hip replacement surgery. A couple weeks my friend commented,” my hip is getting really sore my two uncles and my sister had them done I sure hope it’s not my turn yet, but oh well it’s just genetics what can you do”?
My thoughts on these observations is these people are way to young for these “ procedures” to be done.

I go to the chiropractor twice a month to keep me put back together. My hip has a tendency to dislocate. It's the way I'm built. For the past 6 months, I've been on a daily exercise program to strengthen my back muscles and my hip muscles so I don't dislocate so easily. I'm 72 with hyper-mobile joints. I'm so pleased to say that the program is working and I've held together without major adjustments for the past several months. When my hip dislocates it is pretty painful and I have a hard time walking. I am just amazed that these other people assume all you can do if you have a problem is let the surgeon cut on you.

I've also been in big trouble with rheumatoid arthritis (2015). The doctor wanted to do stem cell replacement surgery on my thumb joints because they were so degraded. I managed to avoid the surgery by following Ray Peat's diet advice and doubling my thyroid medication. Damaged joints really can recover if you figure out what to do via diet and supplements.

I'm in a small town. The hospital here has morphed into a "joint replacement boutique hospital". They've got billboards around town promoting knee replacement surgery. It's pretty outrageous if you ask me.

 

[J.R.K]

I go to the chiropractor twice a month to keep me put back together. My hip has a tendency to dislocate. It's the way I'm built. For the past 6 months, I've been on a daily exercise program to strengthen my back muscles and my hip muscles so I don't dislocate so easily. I'm 72 with hyper-mobile joints. I'm so pleased to say that the program is working and I've held together without major adjustments for the past several months. When my hip dislocates it is pretty painful and I have a hard time walking. I am just amazed that these other people assume all you can do if you have a problem is let the surgeon cut on you.

I've also been in big trouble with rheumatoid arthritis (2015). The doctor wanted to do stem cell replacement surgery on my thumb joints because they were so degraded. I managed to avoid the surgery by following Ray Peat's diet advice and doubling my thyroid medication. Damaged joints really can recover if you figure out what to do via diet and supplements.

I'm in a small town. The hospital here has morphed into a "joint replacement boutique hospital". They've got billboards around town promoting knee replacement surgery. It's pretty outrageous if you ask me.

That is an incredible story and very encouraging @mostlylurking.
The joint replacement business has become akin to taking the car to the mechanic the adage repair by replace is a popular one in today’s world, fixing old parts is a thing of the past now it seems for all fields.

 

[mostlylurking]

That is an incredible story and very encouraging @mostlylurking.
The joint replacement business has become akin to taking the car to the mechanic the adage repair by replace is a popular one in today’s world, fixing old parts is a thing of the past now it seems for all fields.

My dear friend got her hip replaced last December. Now she's really upset because they didn't tell her they would cut her thigh muscle in two and rehab would drag out for months. I suspect she would have tried harder with some exercises had she known the ins and outs of hacking out a hip joint and replacing it. Now it looks like one leg is about 2 inches longer than the other and one hip is hitched up a lot higher than the other. She can barely walk. She's planning to go back in for a knee replacement next. She's almost 80.

I hate doctors.

 

[AspiringSage]

My dear friend got her hip replaced last December. Now she's really upset because they didn't tell her they would cut her thigh muscle in two and rehab would drag out for months. I suspect she would have tried harder with some exercises had she known the ins and outs of hacking out a hip joint and replacing it. Now it looks like one leg is about 2 inches longer than the other and one hip is hitched up a lot higher than the other. She can barely walk. She's planning to go back in for a knee replacement next. She's almost 80.

I hate doctors.

That’s a disappointing outcome for a surgery theoretically intended to preserve and improve mobility. A good friend of mine (in her 70’s) had to have her knee replacement, replaced. Took years to find a surgeon who would repair the first surgeons work. The recovery was brutal and is still ongoing after two years. They also canceled her PT during covid lockdowns and set her back months.