Serotonin Increases Or Decreases Social Status?

[YourUniverse]

Low serotonin facilitates an assertive personality. This correlates quite well with social status. Aggression and violence are in the same category in my book.

Theyre in the same category but theyre not the same thing. Your argument is treating them as if they are the same thing. And specifically, it appears you link physical dominance to aggression. Very small people can be hostile, use capital to take by force what is not theirs, that force may be political sway, manipulation, humiliation, loss of social favour, and etc. Very little of that is physically violent, and every bit of it is unfortunately common.

 

[Kingpinguin]

But..... did it really? Aggression is defined as "Threatening, chasing, biting, or displaying to another animal." Locomotion, which was also increased, is defined as "Walking, running, or climbing for more than 1 m." So, maybe these monkeys were just more active in general.

I don't know about any "sociable" conclusions, none of any of the treated monkeys changed their role when the original dominant male returned.

do we even know what dose they used for cyphroheptadine? If they used higher doses it would also block dopamine quite heavily.

 

[Kingpinguin]

Humans routinely and easily gain status through aggression, they just won't keep it - others will not help them back up when they fall

there’s different degrees of status and perspectives. Adolf Hitler became emperor of Germany. There was likely people who even looked up to that psychotic dude. But in your eyes is he a good example of social status? No. Social status is also a personal opinion. Some people think gaining status by force and fear is just the same as gaining status from being liked and doing good things. They can have the same outcome. Power. But which one is the most honourable? Everyone knows the answer. Being polite, nice and smart, driven with good energy and mood will gain you high social status. High serotonin wont give you those traits

 

[YourUniverse]

there’s different degrees of status and perspectives. Adolf Hitler became emperor of Germany. There was likely people who even looked up to that psychotic dude. But in your eyes is he a good example of social status? No. Social status is also a personal opinion. Some people think gaining status by force and fear is just the same as gaining status from being liked and doing good things. They can have the same outcome. Power. But which one is the most honourable? Everyone knows the answer. Being polite, nice and smart, driven with good energy and mood will gain you high social status. High serotonin wont give you those traits

Honour is nice, I strive to be honourable, but its almost irrelevant here. I think power only lasts if acquired doing good, as you said. Power can be easily gained by doing "evil", though - but as I said, it will not last

 

[tankasnowgod]

do we even know what dose they used for cyphroheptadine? If they used higher doses it would also block dopamine quite heavily.

It says right in the abstract 60 micrograms per kilogram a day, which would give a HED of about 19 micrograms per kilogram, which would be about 1-2mg for most adults. OP posted the full study earlier.

Of course, don't forget about the tiny outdoor enclosures that were 4x3x2 meters to house 5-6 monkeys that weighed 5-8kg at a time.

 

[TheBeard]

In this study monkeys that were submissive became dominant after tryptophan and fluoxetine, while serotonin antagonists caused submission and made the male monkeys direct their agression most often to females
from the full study
"The figure also shows that fenfluramine- or cyproheptadine-treated subjects often directed aggression to females. This pattern contrasts sharply with that shown by vehicle-treated animals who directed less than 40% of their aggression to females (P < 0.05, by Scheffe's test). When the treated males aggressed against females, the females usually responded with severe, prolonged counter-attacks. Typically, these counter-attacks resulted in spatial and social isolation of the attacking male."

Serotonergic mechanisms promote dominance acquisition in adult male vervet monkeys - ScienceDirect
Serotonergic mechanisms promote dominance acquisition in adult male vervet monkeys
Author links open overlay panelMichael J.Raleigh1234Michael T.McGuire1234Gary L.Brammer124Deborah B.Pollack12ArthurYuwiler134
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Abstract
In a counter-balanced, cross-over study, we examined the contributions of serotonergic systems to the acquisition of social dominance in adult male vervet monkeys. Subjects were members of 12 social groups, each containing 3 adult males, at least 3 adult females, and their offspring. Animals were observed in 5 intervals including a first baseline, a first experimental, a second baseline, a second experimental, and a third baseline period. At the end of the first baseline period, the dominant male was removed from each group. In each group, one of the two remaining subordinate males was selected at random for treatment and during the first experimental period, 6 of the 12 treated males received drugs that enhanced serotonergic activity (3 were given tryptophan 40 mg/kg/day and 3 fluoxetine 2 mg/kg/day). The other 6 treated males received drugs that reduced serotonergic function (3 were given fenfluramine 2 mg/kg/day and 3 cyproheptadine 60 μg/kg/day). At the end of the first experimental period, the original dominant male was returned to his group and the second baseline period began. In all instances, the originally dominant male regained his dominant position. The second experimental period began with the dominant male again being removed and, the 12 treated males were given the treatment they had not received in the first experimental period. At the start of the third 12-week baseline period, the original dominant male was returned to his group and resumed his dominant status. When the 12 treated subjects received tryptophan or fluoxetine, they became dominant in all instances. When they received fenfluramine or cyproheptadine, their vehicle-treated cage mates became dominant. The sequence of the behavioral changes shown by the treated males as they acquired dominance status paralleled those seen in naturalistic conditions. These observations support the distinction between dominance and aggression and strongly suggest that when hierarchical relationships are uncertain, serotonergic mechanisms may mediate the behaviors which permit a male to attain high dominance status.

Serotonin makes me socially and emotionally blunt.
It kills my drive to socialise, I see no point in anything, no drive.
Makes me socially autistic: zero anxiety, but to the point where there is no desire to socialise either.
Just approaching everyone in a calm and lifeless manner.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Serotonin makes me socially and emotionally blunt.
It kills my drive to socialise, I see no point in anything, no drive.
Makes me socially autistic: zero anxiety, but to the point where there is no desire to socialise either.
Just approaching everyone in a calm and lifeless manner.

If you were locked up like those monkeys were, that might be adaptive.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Social dominance, rank, hierarchy, status ....depends on many different factors and varies from environment to environment. There is no one-fit all broscience-recipe.

Good Dopa-tone is the only thing I'd say might factor in universally in human hierarchies

 

[Opioidus]

Serotonin in the brain is not the same as serotonin elsewhere. Personally I have greatly benefited from SNRIs in terms of social status, on venlafaxine for example I was much calmer, much more assertive and didn't have that damn inferiority feeling around people. But the side effects were too many. Brain zaps. Insatiable hunger or non existent appetite. Difficulty emptying my bladder. Horrible, terrible side effects the likes of which I do not wish on my worst enemies.

I managed to mimick a lot of the positive effects by lifting heavy weights, vitamin D, coffee, sarcosine, and Boswellia. But it's not exactly the same level of confidence.

 

[GutFeeling]

Serotonin in the brain is not the same as serotonin elsewhere. Personally I have greatly benefited from SNRIs in terms of social status, on venlafaxine for example I was much calmer, much more assertive and didn't have that damn inferiority feeling around people. But the side effects were too many. Brain zaps. Insatiable hunger or non existent appetite. Difficulty emptying my bladder. Horrible, terrible side effects the likes of which I do not wish on my worst enemies.

I managed to mimick a lot of the positive effects by lifting heavy weights, vitamin D, coffee, sarcosine, and Boswellia. But it's not exactly the same level of confidence.

Interesting, have you tried mirtazapine or methylphenidate?

 

[johnwester130]

serotonin promotes the aggressive/jealous/desperate/frustrated/scarcity mindset and lowers your nutritional needs so you survive on less food.

this is the exact opposite of social status

 

[Luann]

Well, people tend to care-take, and often we respond kindly to people displaying odd or anti-social behavior, assuming they're just having a bad day. Other responders are more straight forward. So I think anytime X behavior is assumed to elicit Y social reaction, there will be exceptions.

 

[Opioidus]

Interesting, have you tried mirtazapine or methylphenidate?

I have tried Ritalin, it only gave me a headache! Other dopaminergic substances are the same. I believe I may have something called Sluggish cognitive tempo, a subset of ADHD that is caused by low norepinephrine instead of dopamine issues. That's why I respond so well to Atomoxetine but not so well to Ritalin or Adderall.

But that's another topic.

 

[ilhanxx]

I have tried Ritalin, it only gave me a headache! Other dopaminergic substances are the same. I believe I may have something called Sluggish cognitive tempo, a subset of ADHD that is caused by low norepinephrine instead of dopamine issues. That's why I respond so well to Atomoxetine but not so well to Ritalin or Adderall.

But that's another topic.

Do you have any sexual side effects from serotonergic drugs? I am on wellbutrin for one week, first three days I had very bad constipation and insomnia, all gone, But I am suspicious from it is working, But I had very bad respond (anxiety, angry, zero emotion)from 5htp, johns wort etc.

 

[Opioidus]

Do you have any sexual side effects from serotonergic drugs? I am on wellbutrin for one week, first three days I had very bad constipation and insomnia, all gone, But I am suspicious from it is working, But I had very bad respond (anxiety, angry, zero emotion)from 5htp, johns wort etc.

I remember having retrograde ejaculations once or twice, but the biggest issue for me is urinary retention. I've never been on 5htp or sjw, I usually steer clear of herbal supplements as you hardly know how they're prepared and dosing is also an issue. I've been on venlafaxine, atomoxetine, Cymbalta, citalopram, Paxil and fluvoxamine. In terms of social effects from best to worse: Cymbalta > Venlafaxine > Paxil > atomoxetine. Citalopram and Fluvoxamine only had side effects with no noticeable benefits.

Wellbutrin is a different beast from SSRIs, what dose are you on and for what purpose? I doubt it'll work for social issues.

 

[ilhanxx]

I remember having retrograde ejaculations once or twice, but the biggest issue for me is urinary retention. I've never been on 5htp or sjw, I usually steer clear of herbal supplements as you hardly know how they're prepared and dosing is also an issue. I've been on venlafaxine, atomoxetine, Cymbalta, citalopram, Paxil and fluvoxamine. In terms of social effects from best to worse: Cymbalta > Venlafaxine > Paxil > atomoxetine. Citalopram and Fluvoxamine only had side effects with no noticeable benefits.

Wellbutrin is a different beast from SSRIs, what dose are you on and for what purpose? I doubt it'll work for social issues.

I use for long time major depression/dysthymia. I am on wellbutrin xl 150 mg. It is early but self confidence is ok now, when It will be insufficient for social problems, I add low dose ssri.

 

[aguineapig]

This is an interesting, long read on buspirone/buspar for agression and anger in humans.

Buspirone and aggression | Pacific Neuropsychiatric Institute

Buspirone tends to lower serotonin and raise dopamine and Noradrenaline significantly. One animal study noted 50% reduction in dialysate serotonin, and a 100% and 130% increase in Dopamine and Noradrenaline, respectively.

 

[Opioidus]

This is an interesting, long read on buspirone/buspar for agression and anger in humans.

Buspirone and aggression | Pacific Neuropsychiatric Institute

Buspirone tends to lower serotonin and raise dopamine and Noradrenaline significantly. One animal study noted 50% reduction in dialysate serotonin, and a 100% and 130% increase in Dopamine and Noradrenaline, respectively.

At what doses and in how long?