Pranarupa: Magick And Melatonin

[Dan W]

A new Pranarupa article is out:
Magick and Melatonin

 

[Lightbringer]

Interesting take on melatonin with lots of references. Wonder if Peat has changed his opinion on melatonin in specific contexts.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Why? He already said it's an antioxidant.

 

[Agent207]

Yes specially we most live on enviroments that strongly degrade it or inhibit its release. Mobiles, screens, too much blue light at night times, EMF from wifis, voltage leakage from poor house wirings... etc.

What about all these... arent they to have it into account? or do they do good at impairing natural melatonin release?

 

[Lightbringer]

Why? He already said it's an antioxidant.

Hmm, I thought about it differently based on some of the things Peat has written. For example,

There is a lot of talk about melatonin’s function as an antioxidant, but, like so many other “antioxidants,” melatonin can act as a pro-oxidant at physiologically relevant concentrations; some studies have found that it, like estrogen, increases the activity of the pro-oxidative free radical nitric oxide (which acts like melatonin on pigment cells, causing them to lighten).

Melatonin and prolactin are induced by stress, and darkness is a stress because it impairs mitochondrial energy production.

In 1994 A.V. Sirotkin found that melatonin inhibits progesterone production but stimulates estrogen production, and it’s widely recognized that melatonin generally inhibits the thyroid hormones, creating an environment in which fertilization, implantation, and development of the embryo are not possible

 

[Ahanu]

r do they do good at impairing natural melatonin release?

Not so sure about that..

In patients suffering from breast, endometrial, or colorectal cancer [29] melatonin secretion is impaired. The increased incidence of breast and colorectal cancer observed in nurses and other night-shift workers suggests a possible correlation between the reduced melatonin secretion and their increased light exposure at night [30, 31]. The physiological surge of melatonin at night is thus considered a “natural restraint” on tumor initiation, promotion, and progression.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3788186/

 

[Such_Saturation]

Hmm, I thought about it differently based on some of the things Peat has written. For example,

He said it on the radio. Fights the night time radicals or something.

 

[Pointless]

Hmmm pranarupa says that melatonin blocks damage from NO and is an aromatase inhibitor, but Ray says it increases damage from NO and stimulates estrogen production.

Interesting that I was just thinking about melatonin and meditation. But no mention of magick in the article.

 

[Elephanto]

Melatonin makes me feel horrible and high serotonin the next day. It seems to degrade my physical appearance too in the particular way that all anti-androgens do (its efficacy against prostate cancer is based on its inhibiton of androgen receptor mainly) . This happens with melatonin pills, pineapple and cherry juices which have been stated by studies to greatly increase melatonin.

I'm sure a lack of melatonin is problematic, but melatonin also correlates positively with diabetes.
Increased Melatonin Signaling Is a Risk Factor for Type 2 Diabetes. - PubMed - NCBI
The only times Ive had blood sugar problem was after eating sugary stuff at night in the darkness.

From personal experience, supranatural levels of melatonin like those found in pills, pineapple and cherry juices are harmful.

 

[Agent207]

The problem I see with most supps is the insanely high doses. Physiological doses would be around 100-200mcg

 

[haidut]

For those interested, look up a drug called luzindole. It is a melatonin antagonist and has some very impressive benefits. So, melatonin is probably not that good, especially when administered as supplement. I think it's main benefit comes from lowering serotonin levels due to being a downstream metabolite. So, endogenous/physiological levels are probably OK and developed as a type of "lesser evil" mechanism. But melatonin is a catabolic hormone and as such should be viewed with caution.
Catabolism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"...There are many signals that control catabolism. Most of the known signals are hormones and the molecules involved in metabolism itself. Endocrinologists have traditionally classified many of the hormones as anabolic or catabolic, depending on which part of metabolism they stimulate. The so-called classic catabolic hormones known since the early 20th century are cortisol, glucagon, and adrenaline (and other catecholamines). In recent decades, many more hormones with at least some catabolic effects have been discovered, including cytokines, orexin (also known as hypocretin), and melatonin."

 

[Agent207]

We need more references to support that simplistic sentence on melatonin being catabolic. Now we take wikipedia articles as a word of proof?

Melatonin is as Effective as Testosterone in the Prevention of Soleus Muscle Atrophy Induced by Castration in Rats
"Both the light and electron microscopical findings support our hy-pothesis that melatonin may be an effective agent inpreventing the skeletal muscle atrophy induced by cas-tration. On the basis of the data in the present study,we suggest that melatonin secreted by the pineal glandhas a similar synergy of effects as testosterone in theprevention of atrophy induced by castration through theIGF-I axis."

We can't take one of the most mainstream sources like wikipedia to probe anything, all Peat researchers should know this. Pranarupa did an decent article with references that deserves better refuting.

I would insist again on the impact of modern living, from screens, electronics, emfs... etc on impairing natural melatonin levels at night. Do you consider this a good side effect so?

 

[Such_Saturation]

Feels he's rehashing clickbait alt media concepts... usually it's more innovative writing. But perhaps there's more...

 

[BigPapaChakra]

It appears as though Pranarupa is familiar with Crowley's work and that of Thelema, from this post

 

[haidut]

We need more references to support that simplistic sentence on melatonin being catabolic. Now we take wikipedia articles as a word of proof?

Melatonin is as Effective as Testosterone in the Prevention of Soleus Muscle Atrophy Induced by Castration in Rats
"Both the light and electron microscopical findings support our hy-pothesis that melatonin may be an effective agent inpreventing the skeletal muscle atrophy induced by cas-tration. On the basis of the data in the present study,we suggest that melatonin secreted by the pineal glandhas a similar synergy of effects as testosterone in theprevention of atrophy induced by castration through theIGF-I axis."

We can't take one of the most mainstream sources like wikipedia to probe anything, all Peat researchers should know this. Pranarupa did an decent article with references that deserves better refuting.

I would insist again on the impact of modern living, from screens, electronics, emfs... etc on impairing natural melatonin levels at night. Do you consider this a good side effect so?

Why do you focus on the one reference to catabolism? Did you research luzindole? I just wanted to say that exogenous melatonin supplementation is a mixed bag and like all amines derived from serotonin it should be treated with caution. Most of the stuff that rises during night is not good for us to boost through supplementation. Melatonin can stimulate growth hormone and prolactin release in humans when administered exogenously. Is this something you'd consider good?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8370132
Role of melatonin in nocturnal prolactin secretion in women with normoprolactinemia and mild hyperprolactinemia. - PubMed - NCBI
Positive relationship between the nocturnal concentrations of melatonin and prolactin, and a stimulation of prolactin after melatonin administratio... - PubMed - NCBI

Like I said, the benefits of melatonin may lay primarily in it shifting the metabolism away from serotonin. But melatonin itself is a night-mimetic, and as such I view it with caution. We all choose to accept or reject evidence and this is where I stand. Don't feel obliged to agree with me.

 

[tyw]

For most people, "darkness" is inevitable. More accurately, it is going to be impossible to mimic the effects of a 24 daylight cycle, and therefore the body will need to be "prepared for darkness".

(NOTE: ignore the transient near-24-hour days that some people near the poles of the Earth experience for a few days a year , since it isn't relevant to most people's experience of the seasons)​

I agree that Melatonin is a "darkness hormone", but it is a much needed hormone at night to allow for onset of the preferred sleep cycle and prevent damage in tissues.

And yes, Melatonin is a catabolic hormone. But "catabolic" should not be seen as "bad". eg: as @Agent207 has said, Melatonin can prevent muscle atrophy. Note that this "lack of loss" isn't the same as "allowing for gain".

Autophagy is a catabolic process, and in many ways, can be seen as a thoroughly necessary step in order to enable further metabolism and anabolism. Melatonin clearly has benefits in this regard:

- Role of melatonin in the regulation of autophagy and mitophagy: A review
- Melatonin-enhanced autophagy protects against neural apoptosis via a mitochondrial pathway in early brain injury following a subarachnoid hemorrhage - Chen - 2013 - Journal of Pineal Research - Wiley Online Library
- Melatonin, Autophagy and Intestinal Bowel Disease: Ingenta Connect
- Melatonin-induced autophagy protects against human prion protein-mediated neurotoxicity - Jeong - 2012 - Journal of Pineal Research - Wiley Online Library
- Melatonin protects N2a against ischemia/reperfusion injury through autophagy enhancement - Springer

And yet, it prevents "too much autophagy" in particular autophagic processes when those are not the right thing to do:

- Inhibition of Autophagy Contributes to Melatonin-Mediated Neuroprotection Against Transient Focal Cerebral Ischemia in Rats
- The mechanism for the neuroprotective effect of melatonin against methamphetamine-induced autophagy - Nopparat - 2010 - Journal of Pineal Research - Wiley Online Library
- Melatonin protects against apoptotic and autophagic cell death in C2C12 murine myoblast cells - Kim - 2010 - Journal of Pineal Research - Wiley Online Library
- Melatonin treatment induces interplay of apoptosis, autophagy, and senescence in human colorectal cancer cells - Hong - 2014 - Journal of Pineal Research - Wiley Online Library

NOTE: "autophagy" is a general description of a set of actions which have multiple different inputs; different autophagy-inducing pathways are favoured under different conditions (eg: the set of "sleep-driven autophagy" is different from the set "exercise-driven autophagy").​

I agree with @haidut on the desirable feedback benefits on serotonin.

----

On a practical note, I can endorse the transient use of melatonin, since there is little long-term harm.

Personally, I have never used it, so I cannot comment on the efficacy myself. (It is not available in Australia outside prescription)

It tends to be heavily suppressed by daylight anyway, and therefore a dose taken on a single night will likely not affect you the next day, nor on any subsequent days; There doesn't seem to be a negative feedback mechanism that prevents you from making melatonin the next day.

Remember again that Melatonin is a hormone, and like all hormones, are signalling molecules, which cells can then decide to interpret at varying degrees of eagerness -- different cells in different people may react to a same dose of melatonin differently.

For example: I've seen 3 cases of people with acetylserotonin O-methyltransferase (AMST) SNPs that affect melatonin production -- ASMT acetylserotonin O-methyltransferase [Homo sapiens (human)] - Gene - NCBI

In these people, salivary tests revealed decreased nighttime melatonin under certain conditions (likely when they were under greater stress), and this was coupled with bad sleep and even less stress resilience the next day. Supplementation with melatonin seemed to fix those issues, and I can support that sort of controlled treatment.

As with any supplement, when Melatonin is needed, it is needed. When it is not, it is not

....

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think B6 as a supplement can do what melatonin as a supplement can do and more safely. Both melatonin and B6 give me increased dreaming and a more alert sleep, and not exactly more restful. This guy says melatonin lowers deep sleep Melatonin advances the circadian timing of EEG sleep and directly facilitates sleep without altering its duration in extended sleep opportunities in humans - Rajaratnam - 2004 - The Journal of Physiology - Wiley Online Library

 

[Agent207]

@Such_Saturation it says it decreased in both melatonin and placebo groups. Also, 1,5mg is a high pharmacologic dose. 100mcg should be more than enough as an ideal dose to mitigate the declining of this hormone.

Pineal gland calcification with age messes up too with melatonin secretion.

 

[Such_Saturation]

@Such_Saturation it says it decreased in both melatonin and placebo groups. Also, 1,5mg is a high pharmacologic dose. 100mcg should be more than enough as an ideal dose to mitigate the declining of this hormone.

Huh, you're right about the article! But regarding dosage I was never able to find smaller products.

 

[Parsifal]

Seems that the gut microbiota produces a lot more melatonin than the pineal gland.