Melatonin Elevates Brain Serotonin

[haidut]

Ray has repeatedly warned against the exogenous supplementation with melatonin and has said that it is almost as dangerous as serotonin (of which melatonin is a metabolite). One of the main benefits of red light is that it sharply decreases melatonin synthesis, sometimes by as much as 90%. I don't know if red light also decreases serotonin, but at least it will prevent its increases due to the stress responses induced by darkness. One more confirmation of the darkness-stress mechanism.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/5675470

"...The intraperitoneal administration of melatonin to rats caused an increase in brain serotonin concentration, especially in the midbrain. This effect could be demonstrated within 20 minutes of melatonin administration and was not associated with changes in norepinephrine concentration."

 

[jyb]

One of the main benefits of red light is that it sharply decreases melatonin synthesis, sometimes by as much as 90%.

A relevant question for us who use high powered lights is whether it suppresses melatonin to under the point needed for sleep onset. Incandescent has lots of red, but also a bit of blue I imagine. But I thought only blue light was able to affect melatonin? So I avoid it at night for the opposite reason, I want to leave the normal melatonin cycle do its thing. Blue light is key in regulating the body clock.

 

[haidut]

post 101879

One of the main benefits of red light is that it sharply decreases melatonin synthesis, sometimes by as much as 90%.

A relevant question for us who use high powered lights is whether it suppresses melatonin to under the point needed for sleep onset. Incandescent has lots of red, but also a bit of blue I imagine. But I thought only blue light was able to affect melatonin? So I avoid it at night for the opposite reason, I want to leave the normal melatonin cycle do its thing. Blue light is key in regulating the body clock.

Yes, it does. The human studies I have seen found that insomnia is the primary side effect from extended red light therapy. I would not do it at night after 7pm if it is just red light. Ray said pure red light gives him headaches when used at night, so he uses incandescent instead. I agree that if it is late night and you want to sleep, it's better to use incandescent. I don't get insomnia from regular bulbs but I do get it from the red bulbs.

 

[Kasper]

Haidut, I think you are mistaken here actually. Red light is the least potent of suppressing melatonin. Blue light suppresses melatonin much more effectively. In fact, wavelengths greater than 530 nm does not suppress melatonin at all. Therefore people use blue blocking sunglasses to feel sleepy at night.

And also, did you know that Peat says that high metabolism makes sure that you have higher melatonin at night?

 

[haidut]

post 101987 Haidut, I think you are mistaken here actually. Red light is the least potent of suppressing melatonin. Blue light suppresses melatonin much more effectively. In fact, wavelengths greater than 530 nm does not suppress melatonin at all. Therefore people use blue blocking sunglasses to feel sleepy at night.

And also, did you know that Peat says that high metabolism makes sure that you have higher melatonin at night?

How about these?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16687299
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24110034
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25651090

I did not say anything about blue light, I just said that red light can suppress melatonin and depending on the intensity it can lower it by over 90%. If blue light can do the same so be it.
Do you have a reference for Ray's comment about melatonin?

 

[lexis]

Hi Haidut

What do you think of this blogger's view on serotonin? He says its good to activate the 5-HT1A receptor

http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/23/rs6295 ... Depression

 

[haidut]

post 101996 Hi Haidut

What do you think of this blogger's view on serotonin? He says its good to activate the 5-HT1A receptor

http://selfhacked.com/2015/07/23/rs6295 ... Depression

I have not read the article yet, but several drugs that Peat likes are 5-HT1A agonists, including lisuride and bromocriptine. Also, I posted a study showing 5-HT1A agonists are effective against viral diseases.
However, just because something acts like an agonist on 5-HT1A does not mean it is serotonergic. Several of the serotonin "receptors" actually increase dopamine and lower serotonin when agonized.

 

[lexis]

But 5HT-1A agonist can inhibit penile erection..the article says

 

[haidut]

post 102001 But 5HT-1A agonist can inhibit penile erection..the article says

Well, I know lisuride has the exact opposite effect on me Here is something else to consider.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT1A_receptor
"...5-HT1A receptor activation has been shown to increase dopamine release in the medial prefrontal cortex, striatum, and hippocampus, and may be useful for improving the symptoms of schizophrenia and Parkinson's disease.[33][34] As mentioned above, some of the atypical antipsychotics are 5-HT1A receptor partial agonists, and this property has been shown to enhance their clinical efficacy.[33][35][36] Enhancement of dopamine release in these areas may also play a major role in the antidepressant and anxiolytic effects seen upon postsynaptic activation of the 5-HT1A receptor.[37][38]"

 

[jb116]

is there a supplement alternative to this agonist?

 

[haidut]

post 102017 is there a supplement alternative to this agonist?

Not that I know of, except possibly ginger but its full serotonergic profile is not really known.

 

[lexis]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16033651

Nutmeg and libido

 

[burtlancast]

From one of Haidut's links:

Finally, we can also report that the blue light of LED-backlit computer screen significantly suppress melatonin production (91%) more than red light (78%) and no light (44%).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24110034

There's no debate whether blue light is more effective than red light at suppressing melatonin.

But it's interesting to note than if one shines red light of sufficient intensity, it can effectively suppress melatonin too.

 

[Giraffe]

post 101993 Do you have a reference for Ray's comment about melatonin?

Maybe Kasper meant this:

So when your thyroid is low, the melatonin is low, when your thyroid is high, the melatonin is high, in a logical adaptation -- because it is an antioxidant.

... So if the melatonin rises in proportion to your thyroid, it doesn't matter that it is having these pro-estrogen, anti-progesterone effects, because the thyroid is doing exactly the opposite to those hormones and is taking care of the situation, because thyroid gets rid of the excess estrogen while...being totally responsible for producing progesterone. But if you take melatonin out of context, as he did in the pig study, you're going to get an exactly anti-thyroid effect, deranging those hormones in the direction of stress and aging. The Thyroid, 1996 Gary Null radio

 

[haidut]

post 102116 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16033651

Nutmeg and libido

Ceylon cinnamon has a very similar effect on me and some of the other males I have recommended it to. I suspect it raises dopamine since it is being used in animals models for Parkinson disease.

 

[haidut]

post 102127

post 101993 Do you have a reference for Ray's comment about melatonin?

Maybe Kasper meant this:

So when your thyroid is low, the melatonin is low, when your thyroid is high, the melatonin is high, in a logical adaptation -- because it is an antioxidant.

... So if the melatonin rises in proportion to your thyroid, it doesn't matter that it is having these pro-estrogen, anti-progesterone effects, because the thyroid is doing exactly the opposite to those hormones and is taking care of the situation, because thyroid gets rid of the excess estrogen while...being totally responsible for producing progesterone. But if you take melatonin out of context, as he did in the pig study, you're going to get an exactly anti-thyroid effect, deranging those hormones in the direction of stress and aging. The Thyroid, 1996 Gary Null radio

Thanks, good to know.

 

[Kasper]

Yes, I meant that text.

"I did not say anything about blue light, I just said that red light can suppress melatonin and depending on the intensity it can lower it by over 90%. If blue light can do the same so be it."

I think, the big picture is, that light suppresses melatonin, and that red light suppresses melatonin the least of all (visible) light.

 

[Owen B]

I'm more interested in knocking my sleep inertia down. I can fall asleep pretty well but I've always had huge sleep overhang problems.

What's the light and melatonin connection to that? Is melatonin connected to the deep sleep episodes or the REM episodes? The REM episodes have a pseudo-consciousness facet and a paralysis part. When you wake up, is it the melatonin from the paralysis part of the REM that lapses into wakefulness?

Lots of people use wake up lights that go on 30 mins before you wake up. Are these any good?

If this is right about red light knocking melatonin down, when's the right time to use it? I bought a red light and I'll be using it in the evening, but now I'm thinking I could attach it to a timer and use it for a wake up light.

 

[TheBeard]

I'm more interested in knocking my sleep inertia down. I can fall asleep pretty well but I've always had huge sleep overhang problems.

What's the light and melatonin connection to that? Is melatonin connected to the deep sleep episodes or the REM episodes? The REM episodes have a pseudo-consciousness facet and a paralysis part. When you wake up, is it the melatonin from the paralysis part of the REM that lapses into wakefulness?

Lots of people use wake up lights that go on 30 mins before you wake up. Are these any good?

If this is right about red light knocking melatonin down, when's the right time to use it? I bought a red light and I'll be using it in the evening, but now I'm thinking I could attach it to a timer and use it for a wake up light.

For me melatonin keeps being a huge dilema :

Pros
- it increases my brain function, speech fluency, memory
- it makes me recover a lot better, my muscles are full and ready to work

Cons
- makes me sluggish the next day
- kills my motivation
- lowers libido
- lowers the "spice of life"

 

[milkboi]

For me melatonin keeps being a huge dilema :

Pros
- it increases my brain function, speech fluency, memory
- it makes me recover a lot better, my muscles are full and ready to work

Cons
- makes me sluggish the next day
- kills my motivation
- lowers libido
- lowers the "spice of life"

It's similar for me, although I haven't noticed the positive effects on brain function you described. I'm taking around 300-500 mcg. What about you?