Does Ray Ever Discuss Placebo Effect In Any Of His Articles

Bones

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kiran

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

I think he has, but I can't remember where exactly.

IIRC, He believes that there's no such thing as a placebo effect, and the sugar/salt which are usually used as placebo are actually beneficial of their own right. Hence cures due to "placebo".
 
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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

“The sensory nerves form an integrated picture of the world, including the body’s state. The trophic effects change cell behavior and enzyme activity, according to how the body’s place in the world is understood.”

From one of the interviews on Roddy's site.
 

Rayser

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

kiran said:
I think he has, but I can't remember where exactly.

IIRC, He believes that there's no such thing as a placebo effect, and the sugar/salt which are usually used as placebo are actually beneficial of their own right. Hence cures due to "placebo".

How can anyone not "believe" in the placebo effect?
It makes up to 70% respondence rate. (This was from a study on Botox or isotonic NaCl injections in headaches or the trial by Relja et. at. regarding migraines.)
There are even a good amount of studies about the placebo effect in animals reaching back to Pavlov.

Ray Peat wrote that somebody who dismisses a therapy/a treatment/a drug/a supplement because it's not more effective than placebos dismisses every concept which considers humans to be more than just a random collection of cells.
 

kiran

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

I think the idea is that using an isotonic salt injection can be beneficial in and of itself. Hence placebo can make people feel better. If it were a sugar pill, the sugar itself can have benefits and so on.
 

Rayser

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

kiran said:
I think the idea is that using an isotonic salt injection can be beneficial in and of itself. Hence placebo can make people feel better. If it were a sugar pill, the sugar itself can have benefits and so on.

A sugar pill usually contains some mg of sugar. The beneficial effect would be so tiny that I wouldn't know how to measure it. It certainly wouldn't be 40 to 70%.

The same goes for NaCl injections. We are talking about ml here. To make a lasting change in an organism you would need more or at least a longer period of time during which the salt would be injected regularly.

So I agree that the placebos themselves might have beneficial effects (I remember Ray Peat saying so, too). But that would not explain (for instance) sham surgeries.

It was proved in many studies that placebos (sometimes it's only water, sometimes it's even slightly harmful things like ethanol) have up to 70% respondence rate (sorry if that term is not correct in English. I translated it from German.)

In one study (1), the response to a placebo increased from 44% to 62% when the doctor treated the patients with "warmth, attention, and confidence." Expectancy effects have been found to occur with a range of substances. Those that think that a treatment will work display a stronger placebo effect than those that do not, as evidenced by a study of acupuncture.(2)

And when you've read Ray Peat's articles regarding serotonin, GABBA and other neuro transmitters, you know how much the way you perceive a situation can change the chemicals your brain produces and by that change the hormonal situation of your body.

When you think about it this way, the placebo effect is nothing more than proof of the power of our mind. I think that was the point Ray Peat wanted to make: That to treat the body and neglect the mind would be neglecting human (or animal) nature.

1. Linde K, Witt CM, Streng A, Weidenhammer W, Wagenpfeil S, Brinkhaus B, Willich SN, Melchart D (2007). "The effect of patient expectations on outcomes in four randomized controlled trials of acupuncture in patients with chronic pain". Pain 128 (3): 264–71. doi:10.1016/j.pain.2006.12.006. PMID 17257756.

2. Bausell RB, Lao L, Bergman S, Lee WL, Berman BM (2005). "Is acupuncture analgesia an expectancy effect? Preliminary evidence based on participants' perceived assignments in two placebo-controlled trials". Eval Health Prof. 28 (1): 9–26. doi:10.1177/0163278704273081. PMID 15677384.
 

kiran

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

Rayser said:
So I agree that the placebos themselves might have beneficial effects (I remember Ray Peat saying so, too). But that would not explain (for instance) sham surgeries.
Well, sham surgeries would likely increase stress hormones which can have beneficial effects(at a cost).

In one study (1), the response to a placebo increased from 44% to 62% when the doctor treated the patients with "warmth, attention, and confidence." Expectancy effects have been found to occur with a range of substances. Those that think that a treatment will work display a stronger placebo effect than those that do not, as evidenced by a study of acupuncture.(2)
...

When you think about it this way, the placebo effect is nothing more than proof of the power of our mind. I think that was the point Ray Peat wanted to make: That to treat the body and neglect the mind would be neglecting human (or animal) nature.

I agree with this entirely. No doubt, warmth, attention and confidence are beneficial to all of us.
 

Rayser

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

How would surgery have beneficial effects?
Apart from anesthetics and the fact that 80% oxygen are used during most surgeries, you have a tissue trauma to heal, muscle loss from the recovery time and the higher infection risk in a hospital.
I don't see any physiological reason for that idea.
Am I missing something?
 
J

j.

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

Rayser said:
How would surgery have beneficial effects?
Apart from anesthetics and the fact that 80% oxygen are used during most surgeries, you have a tissue trauma to heal, muscle loss from the recovery time and the higher infection risk in a hospital.
I don't see any physiological reason for that idea.
Am I missing something?

Stresss in some situations can have beneficial effects for unexplained reasons. The stress of life, the book by Hans Selye gives many historical examples. He believes it mobilizes the body's defenses and can benefit, but it can also backfire, and in the long run continuous stress is always bad.
 

kiran

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

Rayser said:
How would surgery have beneficial effects?
Apart from anesthetics and the fact that 80% oxygen are used during most surgeries, you have a tissue trauma to heal, muscle loss from the recovery time and the higher infection risk in a hospital.
I don't see any physiological reason for that idea.
Am I missing something?

For example, corticosteroids like prednisone are used to treat allergic reactions, cancer, etc. Adrenaline is used to treat asthma.

No doubt even a sham surgery would raise a lot of stess hormones, and can potentially treat some conditions.
 

Asimov

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

I have a hard time believing that Ray Peat thinks that a few mg's of sugar coating on a pill would have any drastic effect on disease, when he recommends several thousand times that dosing daily in the diet.

I think the best way to think of a placebo is a treatment unto it's self with a very high rate of biological return for a very low rate of chemical interaction, probably meditated by the mind/body interaction in the patient's own body. If .001 gram of sugar in a "sugar pill" is making someone self report 30% increase in mood......then we've got a helluva return on investment there. Let's just shut our mouth's and wait til the luck runs out.
 

kiran

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

Aren't sugar pills usually solid sugar?
 

Asimov

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

It's hard to say what typical placebo pills are. I read a recent meta study that indicated that 8% of placebo-controlled studies actually list the ingredients of their "sugar pills".

Most placebo pills are constructed specifically by the manufacturer to "match the characteristics" of the actual pill being studied. In reality, it often means putting intentionally damaging substances in the placebo pills (I've heard of pure lactose being used in groups highly susceptible to lactose intolerance, or corn oil used against drugs intended to drive down inflammation markers) so that the test pills appear more effective in comparison.

To answer the question though, historically sugar pills were gel caps filled with filler coated with a light dusting of sugar.
 

Rayser

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

j. said:
Rayser said:
How would surgery have beneficial effects?
Apart from anesthetics and the fact that 80% oxygen are used during most surgeries, you have a tissue trauma to heal, muscle loss from the recovery time and the higher infection risk in a hospital.
I don't see any physiological reason for that idea.
Am I missing something?

Stresss in some situations can have beneficial effects for unexplained reasons. The stress of life, the book by Hans Selye gives many historical examples. He believes it mobilizes the body's defenses and can benefit, but it can also backfire, and in the long run continuous stress is always bad.

I have read Hans Selye's work - at least what's available. He mentions some symptom suppressing by stress hormones which is rather clear and not unknown. The stress hormones don't exist to make us feel terrible and get sick. They all have necessary functions. Sometimes we have to function in order to escape a threat and we don't have time to heal immediately. Lactate is necessary, cortisol is, even serotonin has a function we couldn't life without.

But I have not read any evidence of surgery having beneficial effects, not even for a short time.
I've once seen a PET-CT of a person at the time he received anesthesia and oxygen - it flamed up red as if he was burning inside.
I am very sure the stress hormones at the time of tissue damage and oxygen intoxication have life sustaining effects.
But to say a surgery would have the kind of healing effects they were looking for in the placebo studies sounds far fetched to me.
 

Rayser

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

kiran said:
For example, corticosteroids like prednisone are used to treat allergic reactions, cancer, etc. Adrenaline is used to treat asthma.

No doubt even a sham surgery would raise a lot of stess hormones, and can potentially treat some conditions.

You are confusing the dosage here. The amount of prednisone used to treat any condition is usually many times the physiological dosage of cortisol, meaning the amount of cortisol the human body can produce itself.

"Prednisone is a corticosteroid ... This drug is 4-5 times more potent than cortisol. 5 mg of prednisone is equivalent to the amount of cortisol produced by the body in one day (20mg).

Read more at Buzzle: http://www.buzzle.com/articles/prednisone-dosage.html


The physiological dosis of cortisol would be the prednisone equivalent of 5 to 10mg.
To treat asthma and shock 10 to 25 equivalents of prednisone are used.
For autoimmun diseases or infections/inflammation it would be 50 to 100 equivalents of prednisone.
For cancer (for instance BEACOPP for lymphoma) it would be 40 milligrams / square meter (adult average of body surface: 2.2), meaning: 88mg daily orally.
The maximum dosage would be 1000 equivalents of prednisone.

According to the Medline Encyclopedia, normal levels of cortisol in the bloodstream at 8:00 a.m. are 6-23 mcg/dl.

"While it is not clear if a daily dose of 3 mg has any clinically significant toxic effects, it is known that a daily intake of more than 5 mg may increase the risk of cataracts, osteoporosis. Higher doses may even lead to decreased wound healing capacity and increased susceptibility to infections due to suppression of immune system."
 

Rayser

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Re: Does Ray Ever discuss Placebo effect in any of his artic

Asimov said:
I think the best way to think of a placebo is a treatment unto it's self with a very high rate of biological return for a very low rate of chemical interaction, probably meditated by the mind/body interaction in the patient's own body. If .001 gram of sugar in a "sugar pill" is making someone self report 30% increase in mood......then we've got a helluva return on investment there. Let's just shut our mouth's and wait til the luck runs out.

I don't think anybody could say it better.
 
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