• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,170
Location
USA / Europe
...at least when it comes to learning highly sophisticated, life-saving surgical skills, which in my opinion makes the thread title that much more valid. In fact, I would make the sweeping generalization that it applies to all science and that one of the reasons we are currently in a scientific drought is precisely the sterile, militaristic nature of education we have to endure at the hands of psychopaths...cough...I mean teachers. I posted another thread on a similar topic that makes the argument that true learning and wisdom require leisure, desire and ability to engage in an activity without a "plan", "agenda", or a "performance evaluation".
Leisure And Desire Required For Intelligence, Knowledge And Progress

That has also been discussed by Peat in many of his articles. More specifically, in the context of the high correlation between playfulness and intelligence, often observed in young children and almost never observed in adults over 40.
The study below is that much more important since it concerns the practice of medicine - something that arguably affects every person at some point in their life. Since most of modern medicine relies on little more than the "placebo" effect, being stress-free is a rather important requirement to develop into a kind doctor that can make the "placebo" effect work its magic.
The Placebo Effect Is Real And Depends On Human Kindness And Dopamine

Anyways, as the study below clearly showed, removing the stress and competitiveness of surgical residency allowed doctors to learn highly sophisticated surgical skills in as little as 5 hour-long sessions. For comparison, a full surgical training program can take a year to complete and many people drop out of it because of the insane amount of stress while in it. Perhaps most stunningly, the hobbyist surgeons achieved levels of dexterity comparable to experienced surgeons.
So much for the glory of Rome, as they say in one of my favorite movies :):

Absence of Stressful Conditions Accelerates Dexterous Skill Acquisition in Surgery
Stress-free training may enhance surgical skill
"...University of Houston and Methodist Hospital researchers are reporting in Scientific Reports that the best way to train surgeons is to remove the stress of residency programs and make surgery a hobby. Under relaxed conditions outside a formal educational setting, 15 first-year medical students, who aspired one day to become surgeons, mastered microsurgical suturing and cutting skills in as little as five hour-long sessions."

"It appears that by removing external stress factors associated with the notoriously competitive and harsh lifestyle of surgery residencies, stress levels during inanimate surgical training plummet," said Ioannis Pavlidis, Eckhard Pfeiffer Professor and director of the Computational Physiology Lab at UH. "In five short sessions these students, approaching surgery for fun or as a hobby, had remarkable progress achieving dexterity levels similar to seasoned surgeons, at least in these drills." His partners on the project, Anthony Echo and Dmitry Zavlin, surgeons at Houston Methodist Institute for Reconstructive Surgery, gave brief instructions to the students at the beginning of the program."

"...Once the students began cutting and suturing at their mobile microsurgical simulators, Pavlidis and team tracked their stress levels by measuring sweat responses near the nose via thermal imaging. The students' performance in the surgical drills was scored by two experts, based on video recordings. In previous work Pavlidis and Methodist Hospital researchers found that surgical residents exhibited high stress levels during their formal training in surgical simulators. These high stress levels precipitated "fight or flight" responses, resulting in fast, mindless actions leading to errors and creation of a vicious cycle during the surgical drills."
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,170
Location
USA / Europe
mind blowing...5 hour-long sessions to learn surgical skills...wow...

thanks @haidut

Yep, and not just learn but become as good as seasoned experts who spent years practicing this stuff.
 

Regina

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
3,858
Location
Chicago
Fantastic. It is unfortunate that so much potential is lost.
Aikido is lost to the psychopaths still standing.
I suspect that for the hobbyist who learns something well without distress that Musashi's "from one thing, know ten thousand things" applies.
So, the endeavour itself is well worth the effort.
I've been amazed by several home schooled kids entering the adult world; they master the new environment effortlessly.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
8,769
Location
Manila
It makes sense for me. With a hobby, I'm enjoying what I'm doing. I'm mindful of the moment, and I observe the little things and I connect the dots. I'm not trying to be efficient. I'm not trying to beat anybody. I'm not even trying to beat myself. I think I gain a lot of insight, and I find myself questioning popular opinion about the how's and why's. If I waste money on my hobby and I don't find myself making it into a business, the better for me. I think of a hobby as being in a university with nice surroundings that encourage one to wander off in thoughts. There's the drive in the student to learn than no amount of test taking and grading can surpass.
 
Last edited:

jzeno

Member
Joined
Nov 20, 2017
Messages
543
This is very interesting. This research supports what others have concluded with respect to learning, such as Jim Kwik and Georgi Lazanov, the "father of accelerated learning", which is that the state of the pupil (relaxed, anxious, curious, pressured, etc.) has a huge impact on retention, etc.

Jim Kwik: (skip to 2:18)

Lazanov:
Georgi Lozanov - Wikipedia

Great stuff. I would love to see advancements in education in my lifetime. I think we have the ability to achieve that.
 

Francesca123

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2017
Messages
16
I'm a medical student and find it interesting how I can love learning about physiology and science in my own time but as soon as I need to learn it for a test my interest has diminished. Thanks for posting.
 

Lee Simeon

Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2017
Messages
439
I'm a medical student and find it interesting how I can love learning about physiology and science in my own time but as soon as I need to learn it for a test my interest has diminished. Thanks for posting.
Totally agree, school has a way to make anything uninteresting, even if is something one care about. I find that everything almost depends on the teacher. I think the best teacher can make a something you despise entertaining, at least in my experience.
 

Francesca123

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2017
Messages
16
Totally agree, school has a way to make anything uninteresting, even if is something one care about. I find that everything almost depends on the teacher. I think the best teacher can make a something you despise entertaining, at least in my experience.

Very true. Before medicine I did a degree in Psychology and the subject I did my dissertation on was very dry and technical and I would never have chosen to learn about it willingly; however, my tutor was amazing and so passionate about it that I ended up loving it.
 

Terma

Member
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
1,063
This is very interesting. This research supports what others have concluded with respect to learning, such as Jim Kwik and Georgi Lazanov, the "father of accelerated learning", which is that the state of the pupil (relaxed, anxious, curious, pressured, etc.) has a huge impact on retention, etc.

Jim Kwik: (skip to 2:18)
Phenibut does wonders for my pupils
 

Regina

Member
Joined
Aug 17, 2016
Messages
3,858
Location
Chicago
Totally agree, school has a way to make anything uninteresting, even if is something one care about. I find that everything almost depends on the teacher. I think the best teacher can make a something you despise entertaining, at least in my experience.
Totally agree.
But there are always those people who can make virtually anything competitive in virtually any environment.
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,170
Location
USA / Europe
I'm a medical student and find it interesting how I can love learning about physiology and science in my own time but as soon as I need to learn it for a test my interest has diminished. Thanks for posting.

Very little of school is about learning these days. It is mostly about compliance and getting a "permit" to practice for profit. Medical school is just about proving to the medical industry that you are not an enemy and will follow orders from higher powers. But once you graduate and become a doctor you will probably have more freedom to choose what you want to do and how you want to interact with your patients. So, the goal is to get out (graduate) of the school as quickly as possible :):
 

Broken man

Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2016
Messages
1,626
This is very interesting. This research supports what others have concluded with respect to learning, such as Jim Kwik and Georgi Lazanov, the "father of accelerated learning", which is that the state of the pupil (relaxed, anxious, curious, pressured, etc.) has a huge impact on retention, etc.

Jim Kwik: (skip to 2:18)

Lazanov:
Georgi Lozanov - Wikipedia

Great stuff. I would love to see advancements in education in my lifetime. I think we have the ability to achieve that.
The context is same like what is written with book called "How to think like a Einstein". I found it very useful. The title of the book is only marketing trick I think, didnt find something about it in books about Einstein.
 

Francesca123

Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2017
Messages
16
Very little of school is about learning these days. It is mostly about compliance and getting a "permit" to practice for profit. Medical school is just about proving to the medical industry that you are not an enemy and will follow orders from higher powers. But once you graduate and become a doctor you will probably have more freedom to choose what you want to do and how you want to interact with your patients. So, the goal is to get out (graduate) of the school as quickly as possible :):

Very true, we are never told opposing views just the same old dogma. I'm in the UK so I'm not sure how easy it will be to go against the NHS especially now when money is so tight. I'm just glad I found Ray Peat and others who offer counter arguments for the medical rhetoric we are bombarded with.
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,170
Location
USA / Europe
Very true, we are never told opposing views just the same old dogma. I'm in the UK so I'm not sure how easy it will be to go against the NHS especially now when money is so tight. I'm just glad I found Ray Peat and others who offer counter arguments for the medical rhetoric we are bombarded with.

There is a famous news story about the Dean of the Harvard Medical School telling every new class of students this gem.
Past Deans of the Faculty of Medicine | Harvard Medical School
"...Dr. Burwell was a cardiologist who specialized in circulation changes associated with heart disease. He is credited with bringing attention to obstructive sleep apnea syndrome. In 1944, while Dr. Burwell was Dean, women entered Harvard Medical School for the first time on an equal basis with men. In an address to students at the Medical School, he said, "Half of what we are going to teach you is wrong, and half of it is right. Our problem is that we don't know which half is which.""

Too bad it is not repeated at every medical school. We would have had much more humble, open-minded and non-psychopathic doctors.
 

Terma

Member
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
1,063
Don't you think "scientific drought" is a bit strong? I don't agree with that bit in the least. Practically-speaking 70% of all my best insight into health matters comes from articles dated 2015 or newer, and it seems to get better every year (not to mention sheer volume of experimental data is important). There are some good quality old research but it's aging and slowly deprecating. Rant against the establishment and all that but there are still brilliant scientific minds writing those articles and science happening beyond the institutions. I have every reason to be pissed off at everything but objectively speaking there is no doubt in my mind things are getting significantly better from a pure research/knowledge perspective. (It's just highly specialized and) You can't count on the medical system to make use of the information.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
8,769
Location
Manila
Don't you think "scientific drought" is a bit strong? I don't agree with that bit in the least. Practically-speaking 70% of all my best insight into health matters comes from articles dated 2015 or newer, and it seems to get better every year (not to mention sheer volume of experimental data is important). There are some good quality old research but it's aging and slowly deprecating. Rant against the establishment and all that but there are still brilliant scientific minds writing those articles and science happening beyond the institutions. I have every reason to be pissed off at everything but objectively speaking there is no doubt in my mind things are getting significantly better from a pure research/knowledge perspective. (It's just highly specialized and) You can't count on the medical system to make use of the information.
Really?

We build using cement that don't last much longer than a hundred years, and yet castles have been around for much, much longer. The Pantheon is still around, despite not having steel reinforcement.

We can't even keep California wildfires from engulfing communities, and then have to have native American Indians teach us how to manage the forests?

The mainstream medical community cannot cure cancer, and everything they cannot explain is attributed to genes and randomness. Sounds like the Renaissance in reverse.

I still have yet to see real-world applications of quantum theory. Should I be in abject abeisance to something I truly don't understand, and simply admire works that aren't comprehensible, just because it far exceeds my mind's ability to fathom?

What about this big racket called Climate Change? Is the hoax of 97% of climate scientists stating that climate change is man-made nothing but a demonstration of man's ability to hoodwink society into becoming lemmings?

The truly great achievement in this century is man's ability to use technology to bury truth, and the truly disappointing part of it is man's gullibility to accept what is force-fed them, and to regurgitate it as gospel truth.
 

Terma

Member
Joined
May 8, 2017
Messages
1,063
All that is red herrings/off-topic in gauging this and meaningless to me in this context. Cancer is a failure mainly in respect to the amount of funding it receives. But its research produces far more pure knowledge than just noise and chemo fodder. I can personally use that research to advance my knowledge in a tangible way - in completely unrelated conditions - and if I can do that it's far from "scientific drought", which is an extreme statement to make and not backed up by those singular examples. Don't confuse inefficiency (or problems in peer review/reproducibility, for that matter) for "drought". I've been hurt as bad as anyone by the medical system, but this doom and gloom - and iconoclasm for its own sake - become frustratingly counterproductive.
 

yerrag

Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2016
Messages
8,769
Location
Manila
All that is red herrings/off-topic in gauging this and meaningless to me in this context. Cancer is a failure mainly in respect to the amount of funding it receives. But its research produces far more pure knowledge than just noise and chemo fodder. I can personally use that research to advance my knowledge in a tangible way - in completely unrelated conditions - and if I can do that it's far from "scientific drought", which is an extreme statement to make and not backed up by those singular examples. Don't confuse inefficiency (or problems in peer review/reproducibility, for that matter) for "drought". I've been hurt as bad as anyone by the medical system, but this doom and gloom - and iconoclasm for its own sake - become frustratingly counterproductive.
This isn't about something than you can reduce to inefficiency. This is about how efficient the system is at squelching advancements in science. Painting the sad situation in a bright palette of colors won't do any good at all. All it does is conceal the dark underbelly of modern science.

Those who speak truth are marginalized. Those who perpetuate falsehood are rewarded. Yet you can't see the effects of such a situation on the advancement of society?
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
Y What Are Your Hobbies The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 12
burtlancast Has Trump really vaccinated ? Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 9
Twohandsondeck Trump convincingly shown as controlled opposition Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 49
haidut CNN admits constant deliberate lies on COVID-19, climate, economy, Trump, etc. Society 46
burtlancast Trump’s Pardons Included Health Care Execs Behind Massive Frauds Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 0
burtlancast 18 Ways Trump Supported The Swamp During His Presidency Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 3
burtlancast Why didn't Trump warn about a PEACEFUL march on Washington ? Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 113
burtlancast Trump chose to let machines steal the election from him Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 28
N Prosecuting Trump - Unanswered Questions Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 68
burtlancast Should Trump Fear For His Life ? Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 20
E Trump Hopitalised Society 45
not_James_Bond Trump And FLOTUS_Test Positive For Covid-19 Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 139
L Trump Elected Again? Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 3348
yerrag Wrapping Up The Targeting And Framing Of Trump And Flynn Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 35
yerrag Drop All Charges Against Assange, Trump! Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 9
Energizer Vaccine Bait & Switch: As Millions Pulled From WHO, Trump Gives Billions To Gates-Founded GAVI Breaking News 8
M Stop The COVID-19 TRACE Act. Tell Trump To Veto It! Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 0
Arnold Grape Trump Tries To Go Peat Random Quotes 57
David PS A Month After Emergency Declaration, Trump's Promises Largely Unfulfilled Breaking News 6
A Donald Trump And The Great Depression 2.0. Herbert Hoover? Ask For Help or Advice 0
jzeno (US Politics) Trump ****88 Up Sergeant Solami Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 137
burtlancast Trump Keeps Promise On Making America Great Gain: Pardons Multiple Army War Criminals Rant or Rave 89
charlie Donald Trump Defends Bringing Back ‘Better’ Incandescent Light Bulbs Breaking News 21
Braveheart DONALD TRUMP IS A TRAUMATISED MAN Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 90
charlie Another Day In Trump's America Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 91
jzeno [Discussion] President Trump's Annual Physical Results (January 2018) Miscellaneous Health Discussions 55
J Trump Is On Finasteride? Hair & Nails 7
yerrag Trump Admin To Crack Down On Soy? Diet 2
Braveheart PHARMA PAID TRUMP DELIVERED Rant or Rave 12
yerrag New Year: Trump And Bannon - Who Lost Whom? Who Is The Real Loser? Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 10
yerrag Melania Trump Bans Monsanto Products From The White House Breaking News 48
x-ray peat So Did Anyone In The Obama Administration Surveil Anyone In The Trump Campaign? Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 3
D Ray Peat On Donald Trump Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 324
LukeL Trump Is Taking Finasteride Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 72
TubZy Trump Takes Aspirin Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 25
C Trump Puts RFK Jr – Who Railed Against A Vaccine ‘holocaust’ – In Charge Of Commission On Vaccines Vaccines 57
L Donald Trump Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 1114
Kyle M End Times, Donald Trump, Deadly Wound. Flying Saucers, Garden Of Eden. Who Is The Anti-Christ? Meditation, Mindfullness, Religion, Spirituality 111
S Trump Receives Enough Delegates Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 0
Braveheart 'Science' sodomizing the human brain Vaccines 3
Jon2547 Trust the Science with James Corbett Science 5
B CDC Director Overrules Science Advisory Panel, Backs Boosters For 'High-Risk' Workers Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 2
S Elizabeth Warren asked Amazon to censor science books Vaccines 9
Twohandsondeck Science shows that humans are only 6,000 years old (mtDNA) Meditation, Mindfullness, Religion, Spirituality 20
GorillaHead Share All your Science backed resources citing concerns about the covid vaccine! Resources 15
ddjd Doctor destroys CDC "science". 6 minutes- MUST SEE Ask For Help or Advice 44
Braveheart Physician: ‘Fanaticism’ — Not Science — Governs CDC’s Aggressive Push to Vaccinate Even Those With Natural Immunity Vaccines 0
Sofia2020 The Basic Code of the Universe: The Science of the Invisible in Physics, Medicine, and Spirituality by Massimo Citro Book Recommendations 3
Grapelander Politics and Science with Dr. John Littell (12/19/2020) Politics and Science Radio Show 0
Mito How Coronavirus Skeptics Use Orthodox Data Practices to Promote Unorthodox Science Online Miscellaneous Health Discussions 5

Similar threads

Top