Collagen Hydrolysate Vs. Gelatin

loess

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Basically, both are sourced from the same material; the difference is in the processing. Collagen hydrolysate dissolves easily in cold liquids, and some folks find it easier to digest. For most people's Peat purposes, the collagen hydrolysate will be the most convenient and useful. Gelatin only dissolves in hot liquids and will clump up as it cools, so it would be best used in gummy recipes, jello, etc.

More here: http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/ ... ifference/
 

loess

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I should probably note here that it's likely that the additional high temperature processing that the Great Lakes Collagen Hydrolysate (green container) goes through that allows it to dissolve in cold liquids weakens its healing benefits when compared to the plain gelatin (red container). So if you're using the hydrolyzed version, it may be wise to up the dosage a bit. Perhaps the most effective approach would be to keep a container of both, so that you have the option to go to the Collagen Hydrolysate if you're on the go, at work, pressed for time or otherwise away from the ability to heat up some water.
 

jyb

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loess said:
I should probably note here that it's likely that the additional high temperature processing that the Great Lakes Collagen Hydrolysate (green container) goes through that allows it to dissolve in cold liquids weakens its healing benefits when compared to the plain gelatin (red container).

Do you have evidence for this? The beneficial effect of gelatin is just amino acids. Unless the body can't use the amino acids of the hydrolyzed version, I don't see any difference.

Foods can become more beneficial when heated or processed, others not.
 

loess

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I don't have any evidence, and having reflected a bit, my thoughts above probably don't hold much validity. I think I admittedly drew upon an ingrained prejudice I have against industrially processed foods in general, as well as this post over in the Supplement thread.

As an aside, here's Ray Peat's thoughts on hydrolyzed protein. That information doesn't quite apply here (there is no MSG in any of the Great Lakes products). Great Lakes has a useful page here that discusses the levels of free glutamic acid in both versions, and it's quite low, much lower than even OJ, for instance.
 
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j.

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For what is worth, I feel a bit weird after consuming the collagen hydrosylate. I prefer the regular beef gelatin.
 

Bluebell

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I feel somewhat weird after consuming the red-can gelatin just dissolved in hot milk. Seems OK cold as a jello.

I was going to buy the green can hoping it would be better. I just want something easier to eat, and thought I could dissolve the green can stuff into a latte and not notice it.

I wonder if the green can stuff could have more of an allergic effect, because the particle size is smaller?
 

loess

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jyb

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Jenn said:
I have been told it's less effective as well. It's not just about amino acids, it's about structure.

I can believe that one would need more for the same effect. But the hydrolyzate is so easy to prepare that it's also easier to prepare more.
 

mandance

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I like and keep both on hand. The red can is great in coffee. But not so great in OJ...so with OJ I tend to use the Green stuff and it mixes very well. But I mean...overall I doubt there is much difference...as in...I dont think using one or the other is going to add or subtract years from your life...overall they are basically the same and if hydroslate is good enough for Peat himself, then you can probably bet that its doign the job.
 

Jenn

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The importance would be if you have serious health issues, like cancer or heart disease, then you need to be using what is most effective. If you are on a maintenance diet, then, I agree, whatever works for you.
 

Travis B

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I was using protein powders there for a quite a while, and there is a huge difference between between a hydrolyzed protein and otherwise.

A protein can be a long chain of amino acids. Hydrolyzing can break the protein down into just several aminos, making a peptide of, say, three aminos. The length and combination of the aminos in the peptide have a large bearing on the bioactivity of the peptide. To illustrate: free aminos absorb much faster than undenatured proteins. But peptides absorb even faster than aminos. So there is a big difference in the original form of the protein, particularly with hydrolysation. Additionally, a protein can be hydrolyzed to varying lengths, they aren't all a 3-amino peptide, some are longer: di-peptides, tri-peptides. Each behaving differently in the process of absorption and subsequent biological effects in the bloodstream. Lactoferrin, for example, is a full protein that, when absorbed as is, undigested, has many immune-boosting effects in the body. So proteins are absorbed as full proteins, and at every stage down to free aminos.

I've taken hydrolyzed whey and developed what I think was protein toxicity in about 10 days, with about 30-50g of powder per day. Anytime I ate protein for months afterward, I felt pretty bad (my take at the time was I needed carbs to up the latent carb:protein ratio...) So i would recommend not taking a whole lot of hydrolyzed protein because it fully absorbs in the upper intestine within minutes of drinking it; protein is typically digested rather slowly over the course of hours. The 30g of protein in a medium steak may release less than 10g per hour, so a fraction of a gram per minute; with large amounts of hydrolyzed you can flood your body with 30g all into your bloodstream instantly.

I registered for this site to see if anyone had any more input into this question! I have 5 tubs of Great Lakes hydrolyzed gelatin (which I stopped taking after my hydrolyzed whey scare), and I'm wondering if anybody knows whether longer-chain gelatin proteins are part of what makes gelatin healing... or if hydrolyzed is just fine. I see the danger of large amounts of hyper-rapidly absorbing protein (though I'm not too worried about the safety of small amounts), and the fact that longer protein molecules are bioactive. So my question is whether hydrolyzed collagen is just as effective as the non-hydrolyzed.
 

jyb

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@Travis B: I haven't had any side effects with hydrolyzed gelatin after more than a year of use. I'm not sure if I take as much as 30g at a time, though. However, I have had side effects from the non-hydrolyzed gelatin including severe acne and constipation. It could be due to undigested gelatin feeding bacteria. So for the non-hydrolyzed, I am more careful to use small doses, maybe 10g max at a time.
 

Mittir

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He discussed whey protein powder in Josh Rubin interview on Milk and calcium.
He recommends against whey protein for its high tryptophan content.
He thinks people should avoid ( except for emergency situation)
all kind of dehydrated foods as process
of dehydration increases toxicity of protein. He mentioned that milk is
high in fragile amino acids tryptophan and cystine. Based on all these info
dried whey powder would be extremely unhealthy.
He himself uses regular gelatin powder and bone broth .
Since gelatin is free of tryptophan and cystine, the toxicity in dried gelatin
should be much lower than dried milk. There is known toxicity to
tryptophan in free amino acid form. But he thinks free glycine is safe unless
it is not contaminated in industrial processing. I think he recommends
hydrylozed gelatin only to people who has problem digesting regular
gelatine. He discussed all these in following article.

http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/tryptophan-serotonin-aging.shtml
Although some research shows that babies up to the age of 18 months can assimilate free amino acids, a baby formula containing hydrolyzed protein was associated with decreased serum albumin, which suggests that it interfered with protein synthesis.
 

Travis B

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Mittir said:
He discussed whey protein powder in Josh Rubin interview on Milk and calcium.
He recommends against whey protein for its high tryptophan content.
He thinks people should avoid ( except for emergency situation)
all kind of dehydrated foods as process
of dehydration increases toxicity of protein. He mentioned that milk is
high in fragile amino acids tryptophan and cystine. Based on all these info
dried whey powder would be extremely unhealthy.
He himself uses regular gelatin powder and bone broth .
Since gelatin is free of tryptophan and cystine, the toxicity in dried gelatin
should be much lower than dried milk. There is known toxicity to
tryptophan in free amino acid form. But he thinks free glycine is safe unless
it is not contaminated in industrial processing. I think he recommends
hydrylozed gelatin only to people who has problem digesting regular
gelatine. He discussed all these in following article.

http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/tryptophan-serotonin-aging.shtml
Although some research shows that babies up to the age of 18 months can assimilate free amino acids, a baby formula containing hydrolyzed protein was associated with decreased serum albumin, which suggests that it interfered with protein synthesis.

Thanks a bunch, Mittir.
 

Kray

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Travis, I saw your post here about hydrolyzed protein (gelatin). I have been using the Great Lakes green (hydrolyzed) for several years now. I had to stop taking it when I thought I was having a reaction to it. Even some question of reaction to long-cooked homemade gelatins. In retrospect, it may have been a combination of things but I really appreciated your insights into the protein issues. I had never read this before.

As an alternative, I substituted Vital Whey protein powder to add to my morning smoothies. It is low-heat, non-denatured. What is your take on that as an alternate source of protein? Any info you may have would be greatly appreciated. Just ran out of it and am wondering whether to just add some Greek yogurt and forget the protein powder altogether.

Thanks much!
 

Kray

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Feb 22, 2014
Messages
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Mittir said:
He discussed whey protein powder in Josh Rubin interview on Milk and calcium.
He recommends against whey protein for its high tryptophan content.
He thinks people should avoid ( except for emergency situation)
all kind of dehydrated foods as process
of dehydration increases toxicity of protein. He mentioned that milk is
high in fragile amino acids tryptophan and cystine. Based on all these info
dried whey powder would be extremely unhealthy.
He himself uses regular gelatin powder and bone broth .
Since gelatin is free of tryptophan and cystine, the toxicity in dried gelatin
should be much lower than dried milk. There is known toxicity to
tryptophan in free amino acid form. But he thinks free glycine is safe unless
it is not contaminated in industrial processing. I think he recommends
hydrylozed gelatin only to people who has problem digesting regular
gelatine. He discussed all these in following article.

http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/tryptophan-serotonin-aging.shtml
Although some research shows that babies up to the age of 18 months can assimilate free amino acids, a baby formula containing hydrolyzed protein was associated with decreased serum albumin, which suggests that it interfered with protein synthesis.

Mittir,

Are you saying that hydrolyzed gelatin (Great Lakes Green can, for example) is not the ideal choice, or did the research refer to ANY powdered protein (powdered gelatin in any form, either non-hydrolyzed or hydrolyzed)?
 

Travis B

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Dec 4, 2013
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Hey ClassicalLady,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I think a low temperature processed protein powder is a better option for maybe a serving a day. One important thing is that Gelatin apparently is low in several of the amino acids that Peat says are anti-metabolic, whereas a Whey (and most other protein sources, whole or powdered) would be higher in them. I've read that Peat has said powdered foods aren't the best, so I wouldn't depend on them as a protein source, but Peat DOES recommend powdered gelatin (not hydrolyzed) so there's that. One or two servings a day of maybe 20 grams shouldn't be terrible. I try to get a 3:1 (or so) carb-protein ratio, so maybe keep that in mind.

I sometimes used low-temp, undenatured whey after workouts. It's fast digesting, which is good after a workout. I think it's also good for elderly and folks with poor digestion.. but the bulk of protein should come from real food for sustained energy and with the goal of restored, normal digestion. Cheese (and its slow-digesting casein protein and Ca and Na) is an excellent meat substitute/augmentation that digests well.

Make sure your protein powder doesn't use Soy Lecithin if you are avoiding soy.

As for Mittir's post... it seems the non-hydrolyzed gelatin might be safer. I was having bad reactions to hydrolyzed, too. I don't know if the Great Lakes non-hydrolyzed would be better. I've never had an issue with store-bought individual packets of gelatin. The hydrolyzed is just more enzymatically broken down, ie, smaller protein (peptide) chains... so it digests quicker... but may have been compromised a bit in the process.
 

Kray

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Feb 22, 2014
Messages
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Travis B said:
Hey ClassicalLady,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. I think a low temperature processed protein powder is a better option for maybe a serving a day. One important thing is that Gelatin apparently is low in several of the amino acids that Peat says are anti-metabolic, whereas a Whey (and most other protein sources, whole or powdered) would be higher in them. I've read that Peat has said powdered foods aren't the best, so I wouldn't depend on them as a protein source, but Peat DOES recommend powdered gelatin (not hydrolyzed) so there's that. One or two servings a day of maybe 20 grams shouldn't be terrible. I try to get a 3:1 (or so) carb-protein ratio, so maybe keep that in mind.

I sometimes used low-temp, undenatured whey after workouts. It's fast digesting, which is good after a workout. I think it's also good for elderly and folks with poor digestion.. but the bulk of protein should come from real food for sustained energy and with the goal of restored, normal digestion. Cheese (and its slow-digesting casein protein and Ca and Na) is an excellent meat substitute/augmentation that digests well.

Make sure your protein powder doesn't use Soy Lecithin if you are avoiding soy.

As for Mittir's post... it seems the non-hydrolyzed gelatin might be safer. I was having bad reactions to hydrolyzed, too. I don't know if the Great Lakes non-hydrolyzed would be better. I've never had an issue with store-bought individual packets of gelatin. The hydrolyzed is just more enzymatically broken down, ie, smaller protein (peptide) chains... so it digests quicker... but may have been compromised a bit in the process.

Travis,

Thanks for your comments. Good reminders to keep food in focus and balance. I decided to keep the regular Great Lakes (orange) for jello and occasional gravies, and stop using the hydrolysate. Never could be sure about it with some problems I was having. It's good to get others' feedback on it.

I like to use whey sometimes. I have found Vital Whey to be a good brand, we add it to our morning smoothies when we need some extra staying power.

Thanks for getting back to me. :)
 
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