Cheating Is Driven By Cortisol, Not Testosterone

haidut

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The topic of macho behavior and its apparent mediator testosterone has been studies every since steroids were discovered. The mainstream dogma states that high testosterone drives cheating behavior (especially of males) as some sort of dominance-asserting behavior of genetically superior organisms. Yet, evidence has been accumulating that cheating, similarly to addiction, is simply a desperate attempt to relieve stress. Often this stress is caused by unrealistic expectations or by driving the message into people’s minds that this or that test can make or break their lives. As the study below shows, elevated cortisol was the impetus behind cheating and people who cheated reported reduced emotional stress, as if the cheating was a form of a “fix” or “hit” that has been shown to temporarily also relieve stress in drug “addicts”. And since the study found that relieving the stress activated reward centers in the brain, the message is once again that one can become “addicted” to cheating. As far as testosterone – its only role was reducing the fear of punishment and allowing the stressed people to act upon their desires to relieve stress. By itself, testosterone had no effects on cheating behavior.

Journal of Experimental Psychology: General

The hormones testosterone and cortisol influence unethical behavior, study finds

“…Researchers asked 117 participants to complete a math test, grade it themselves and self-report the number of correctly completed problems. The more problems they got correct, the more money they would earn. From salivary samples collected before and after the test, researchers found that individuals with elevated levels of testosterone and cortisol were more likely to overstate the number of correctly solved problems. “Elevated testosterone decreases the fear of punishment while increasing sensitivity to reward. Elevated cortisol is linked to an uncomfortable state of chronic stress that can be extremely debilitating,” Josephs said. “Testosterone furnishes the courage to cheat, and elevated cortisol provides a reason to cheat.” Additionally, participants who cheated showed lowered levels of cortisol and reported reductions in emotional distress after the test, as if cheating provided some sort of stress relief. “The stress reduction is accompanied by a powerful stimulation of the reward centers in the brain, so these physiological psychological changes have the unfortunate consequence of reinforcing the unethical behavior,” Josephs said.
 

lampofred

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Estradiol/prostaglandins might also play a role...
 

schultz

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The topic itself of "macho behaviour" is something I am fascinated with. We can discuss it from a philosophical and cultural view, but it is also interesting from a scientific perspective. What is it to be a man? What is masculine? Is the most aggressive person also the manliest? It seems like a lot of people think so. I read that male dogs will become more aggressive after they are castrated, like they are no longer confident but are fearful and so act out. Dogs that are abused act like that as well. I have a large Komondor who is not fixed and when he is serious about attacking he doesn't go into a barking fit. If he is on leash he will just stand tall and be ready for what is about to happen, like if we are walking by another dog and it is barking at him he just stands there and stares at it. If he is off leash and it's serious enough then he will just attack. He will bark at things if he is in his house and trying to warn something not to come closer though, or possibly to let me know something is there.

I was listening to the Joe Rogan podcast episode with Mike Tyson and he was talking about how he was just so angry in general he just wanted to hurt people in the ring. His tough upbringing just made him very angry and violent. I guess you could call this a negative male behaviour as opposed to positive male behaviour, but male behaviour none-the-less, but I always think of true male behaviour as being calm and confident.

In the book "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" by Thomas Sowell he talks about "cracker culture" and sort of its history in the southern US. He talks about the kind of men that will fight each other to the death because the one guy looked at the other guy funny or something silly like that. Overly sensitive men defending their "honour", is that masculinity? He compares it to "ghetto culture" or perhaps "rap culture" where men brag about how much money they have, sleeping with women, and threaten other men with violence (especially if you diss them). Interestingly, earlier this year Barack Obama said this "If you are really confident about your financial situation, you’re probably not going to be wearing an eight-pound chain around your neck. If you’re very confident about your sexuality, you don’t have to have eight women around you twerking,” I guess he is trying to say that people who feel the need to try and show off, or show people how great they are, actually have a lack of confidence and a need for people to notice them. Doesn't sound like masculine behaviour to me.

Anyway, this cheating thing is very interesting. Cheating doesn't seem to be a masculine behaviour to me. It seems like the person is scared to lose or perform poorly, so they resort to cheating. For the most part anyway... there may be exceptions.
 

Regina

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The topic of macho behavior and its apparent mediator testosterone has been studies every since steroids were discovered. The mainstream dogma states that high testosterone drives cheating behavior (especially of males) as some sort of dominance-asserting behavior of genetically superior organisms. Yet, evidence has been accumulating that cheating, similarly to addiction, is simply a desperate attempt to relieve stress. Often this stress is caused by unrealistic expectations or by driving the message into people’s minds that this or that test can make or break their lives. As the study below shows, elevated cortisol was the impetus behind cheating and people who cheated reported reduced emotional stress, as if the cheating was a form of a “fix” or “hit” that has been shown to temporarily also relieve stress in drug “addicts”. And since the study found that relieving the stress activated reward centers in the brain, the message is once again that one can become “addicted” to cheating. As far as testosterone – its only role was reducing the fear of punishment and allowing the stressed people to act upon their desires to relieve stress. By itself, testosterone had no effects on cheating behavior.

Journal of Experimental Psychology: General

The hormones testosterone and cortisol influence unethical behavior, study finds

“…Researchers asked 117 participants to complete a math test, grade it themselves and self-report the number of correctly completed problems. The more problems they got correct, the more money they would earn. From salivary samples collected before and after the test, researchers found that individuals with elevated levels of testosterone and cortisol were more likely to overstate the number of correctly solved problems. “Elevated testosterone decreases the fear of punishment while increasing sensitivity to reward. Elevated cortisol is linked to an uncomfortable state of chronic stress that can be extremely debilitating,” Josephs said. “Testosterone furnishes the courage to cheat, and elevated cortisol provides a reason to cheat.” Additionally, participants who cheated showed lowered levels of cortisol and reported reductions in emotional distress after the test, as if cheating provided some sort of stress relief. “The stress reduction is accompanied by a powerful stimulation of the reward centers in the brain, so these physiological psychological changes have the unfortunate consequence of reinforcing the unethical behavior,” Josephs said.
This interpretation makes so much sense--pretty much for all of the behaviours of the so-called personality disorders. Duping delight (the smirk), the euphoria of idealization, gambling......, the restlessness and looking outward. And it explains why people who are seemingly not in a bind (financially) still steal and dupe.
 

Regina

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The topic itself of "macho behaviour" is something I am fascinated with. We can discuss it from a philosophical and cultural view, but it is also interesting from a scientific perspective. What is it to be a man? What is masculine? Is the most aggressive person also the manliest? It seems like a lot of people think so. I read that male dogs will become more aggressive after they are castrated, like they are no longer confident but are fearful and so act out. Dogs that are abused act like that as well. I have a large Komondor who is not fixed and when he is serious about attacking he doesn't go into a barking fit. If he is on leash he will just stand tall and be ready for what is about to happen, like if we are walking by another dog and it is barking at him he just stands there and stares at it. If he is off leash and it's serious enough then he will just attack. He will bark at things if he is in his house and trying to warn something not to come closer though, or possibly to let me know something is there.

I was listening to the Joe Rogan podcast episode with Mike Tyson and he was talking about how he was just so angry in general he just wanted to hurt people in the ring. His tough upbringing just made him very angry and violent. I guess you could call this a negative male behaviour as opposed to positive male behaviour, but male behaviour none-the-less, but I always think of true male behaviour as being calm and confident.

In the book "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" by Thomas Sowell he talks about "cracker culture" and sort of its history in the southern US. He talks about the kind of men that will fight each other to the death because the one guy looked at the other guy funny or something silly like that. Overly sensitive men defending their "honour", is that masculinity? He compares it to "ghetto culture" or perhaps "rap culture" where men brag about how much money they have, sleeping with women, and threaten other men with violence (especially if you diss them). Interestingly, earlier this year Barack Obama said this "If you are really confident about your financial situation, you’re probably not going to be wearing an eight-pound chain around your neck. If you’re very confident about your sexuality, you don’t have to have eight women around you twerking,” I guess he is trying to say that people who feel the need to try and show off, or show people how great they are, actually have a lack of confidence and a need for people to notice them. Doesn't sound like masculine behaviour to me.

Anyway, this cheating thing is very interesting. Cheating doesn't seem to be a masculine behaviour to me. It seems like the person is scared to lose or perform poorly, so they resort to cheating. For the most part anyway... there may be exceptions.
Is this your dog? :):
The Threat of Stillness
 

kyle

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He talks about the kind of men that will fight each other to the death because the one guy looked at the other guy funny or something silly like that. Overly sensitive men defending their "honour", is that masculinity?

In defence of the south, there wasnt yet a very sophisticated judicial system in those times. Honor had to supplant the law, forming what i suppose you might consider a less sophisticated social structure but a structure nonetheless.

So it is a kind of manliness that gives soyboys the shivers but a necessary one.

Sowells hypothesis neglects the very socially degraded life found in places like Chicago where uprooted blacks were stuck in brutalist, isolated high rises where all manner of psychotic behavior took root.

Youd expect better from a historian like Sowell - dueling was a long held tradition in the north. The height of gentlemanly behavior. That is until the law developed and dueling banned in favor of litigation and sentencing.

But crapping on rednecks is a favorite past time of elites. It also offers a defense of the disastorius social experimets of the 60s. Google pruitt igoe for example.

In other words, making white southerners look bad and coastal elites look good equals book deals.
 

schultz

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Great article. Yes actually that is almost spot on! Except he doesn't lower his head from what I remember, he sort of stands tall. Otherwise it describes what I am talking about almost exactly, which is kind of neat because I was basing it entirely off of my experience with my own dog and not through reading about dog behaviour.

The first time I took him to a kennel, after he had been there for a week and I was picking him up, they told me they didn't let him out with the other dogs because they thought he didn't seem to trust them or something. I sort of thought he'd get to play with some other dogs, so it seemed a bit unfortunate to me. But he is a livestock guardian dog so maybe he views other dogs as threats to the livestock he protects.
 

lampofred

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I think toxic masculinity is a lack of progesterone. If you have high progesterone, even with enormous amounts of testosterone you will not be aggressive, selfish, willing to harm others for your own benefit, etc. I think Jesus is an example of very high testosterone supported by very high progesterone and zero estradiol...
 

Cirion

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I agree with this assessment for the most part.

My opinion of what "true manliness" is, is having strong convictions/honor, not taking crap from anyone, having confidence in oneself and his mission in life, willingness and ability to protect family and friends, respect from others in his life, to name a few. High androgens should make you happy, more confident, less fearful, more willing to be protective of family and friends - basically, this means being more masculine. Cortisol though tends to make you more emotionally unstable/fearful/selfish etc.

Most of this applies to women too. I dated a woman with sky-high cortisol (Bi-polar) and it was disastrous and I shouldn't have been surprised that I got cheated on, especially since she was a serial cheater in the past as well. I foolishly believed I was somehow special and immune. I know it was the cortisol to blame in the end, and not really her personality per-se, but it doesn't change the fact that one should probably try to actively avoid associating people with chronic stress if possible. Sounds harsh, but oh well.

Going back to the subject matter of hand. Has anyone visited the #redpill reddit or other such sites? You realize pretty quick - most of the members there seem to be high cortisol and high testosterone. There's a lot of truth to red pill philosophies, but a lot of people also take it way too far and many there are celebrating things like cheating etc. and it's such a massive cesspool. Lots of people there with extremely unhealthy attitudes towards women and dating. I get that the current dating environment can leave one jaded (I know this all too well from my last relationship), but that's probably because todays' society sets us up to have high cortisol...
 

Regina

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I think toxic masculinity is a lack of progesterone. If you have high progesterone, even with enormous amounts of testosterone you will not be aggressive, selfish, willing to harm others for your own benefit, etc. I think Jesus is an example of very high testosterone supported by very high progesterone and zero estradiol...
:thumbsup: Agreed. I think it is often misinterpreted (at least in the zen community for a "buddha" or Jesus prototype). The literature ( for warrior/spiritual man) seems to point to high T (or DHT), high progesterone, zero estradiol; yet the interpretation tends to devolve to nasty hypogonad dominance hierarchy swarmers around a narcissistic leader who exploits them.
 

Peater Piper

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Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that cheating is driven by stress? Cortisol is rising in response to the stress (to increase energy demands in order to respond to the stress), but it's not necessarily the driver of cheating. This seems analogous to blaming MPB on DHT.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that cheating is driven by stress? Cortisol is rising in response to the stress (to increase energy demands in order to respond to the stress), but it's not necessarily the driver of cheating. This seems analogous to blaming MPB on DHT.

Sure, cheating is driven by stress but stress itself needs an endogenous "carrier" to manifest its effects. Cortisol is the most direct such carrier but there are also CRH, ACTH, serotonin, estrogen, NO, etc. So, if any of these were found to drive cheating you could still say that stress caused it. Just saying stress did it is not specific enough. By implicating cortisol directly we know specifically HOW stress drives cheating and interventions can be designed around that target.
 
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Wouldn't it be more accurate to say that cheating is driven by stress? Cortisol is rising in response to the stress (to increase energy demands in order to respond to the stress), but it's not necessarily the driver of cheating. This seems analogous to blaming MPB on DHT.
Sometimes, if you let something happen, say, you didn't know enough for a test and failed, then the consequences of that may generate more stress than the prospect of failing would. And it's this stress caused by a bad propsect of your future that will make you cheat. So it's like you're caught between a rock and a hard place. And that's the way the system was engineered to be. Do you think this relates to what you said?
 

sunraiser

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Sure, cheating is driven by stress but stress itself needs an endogenous "carrier" to manifest its effects. Cortisol is the most direct such carrier but there are also CRH, ACTH, serotonin, estrogen, NO, etc. So, if any of these were found to drive cheating you could still say that stress caused it. Just saying stress did it is not specific enough. By implicating cortisol directly we know specifically HOW stress drives cheating and interventions can be designed around that target.

But stating it as "stress" (as per @Peater Piper) allows room for the idea that it's nuanced and human and borne of varying lifestyle and physiological challenges people are facing.

Implicating cortisol is too reductive to allow an actual intervention - the intervention should be around a wholesome approach towards actual human wellbeing and quality of life. The solution is not in simply reducing cortisol as the cortisol is elevated in response to a number of given challenges.

Appropriate cortisol is conducive to wellbeing, but only in the context of hormonal balance and functioning physiology alongside the human things like lifestyle and self reflection.

Arbitrarily attacking cortisol in such an instance will likely reduce wellbeing, not increase it (people would probably not have the perceived energy to cheat I suppose).

I understand you want to help people haidut and it really comes across to me, but I also find it difficult that so many things are framed in the perspective of being driven simply by a single hormone that can be "hacked" or challenged. People respect you a lot and listen to your ideas, so I just want to provide a balanced view as opposed to anything terribly cynical.
 
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Jib

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Cortisol is just a byproduct or cofactor of the real cause of cheating. It may be the trigger on the gun but it doesn't pull the trigger.

Monogamy is a conscious choice and conscious commitment. It's not for everyone. But it's just "what you do" and so people end up in relationships without having a clear understanding of who they are and what they want.

I will never cheat. Ever. Know why? Because I refuse to be in a committed relationship. "Cheating" is the breaching of a contract, either spoken or unspoken, declaring sexual loyalty to one person.

The cortisol will come from declaring sexual loyalty to one person when you secretly wish you could have sex with other people. When you start a monogamous relationship when, if you had free reign and could do whatever you wanted without consequence, you would sleep with more than one person.

Lying and hiding your true self is stressful. And it will build and build. Cheating may provide temporary relief but the only real cure is to only have relationships on your terms that align with your true desires.

Monogamy is insane if you have even a slight desire to sleep around. People need to think of things like this before they make a commitment to someone.

Cortisol comes from initiating relationships and making commitments that are out of alignment with your true desires. The solution is obvious. The temporary fix is always fleeting pleasure, whether sex or drugs or whatever.
 

TheGoogler

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@Cirion I frequent the Redpill subreddit and I disagree with your assessment of the community. The sentiment I have mostly experienced is that of improving oneself as a man, and exposing the bull**** of modern society. Their views on women are mostly a combination of 2 factors: 1) women in today's society have dramatically less relationship value as they did in previous generations, and 2) there is a general sentiment of disgust, anger and frustration with the current state of society, and its people. I think the negative emotion directed towards those people are bourne out of the perspective change "redpilled men" undergo. It's a pendulum effect, similar to how the Christian-turned-atheist finds himself cursing God's name frequently as a sort of subconscious psychological liberation of their prior values.

Women as a whole will always follow men's lead; when the men no longer know how to lead the women flounder, and society as a whole suffers. I don't know if it is possible to quantify all the factors that have negatively contributed to the state of affairs between men and women. I personally think the psychological factors weigh the most, and biological factors such as high cortisol levels result from both unhealthy living and the psychological manipulation of technology in society.


I get that the current dating environment can leave one jaded (I know this all too well from my last relationship), but that's probably because todays' society sets us up to have high cortisol...​

This has a lot more to do with female nature in an abundant society entering its collapse stage, than anything else. Ever since the sexual revolution of the 60s, infidelity and divorce rates have risen dramatically. I'm a firm believer that female pair-bonding deteriorates much much faster than male pair-bonding, but I will admit I currently have no science to back it up. aka "You can't turn a hoe into a housewife". That, paired with artificial validators of female ego through cancerous social medias, women legally and societally considered equal to men, gynocentric culture and a general convoluted understanding of reality seem to add up quite nicely to what we currently experience today. The high cortisol is simply a byproduct of many factors, but far from the root cause.
 
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TheBeard

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The topic of macho behavior and its apparent mediator testosterone has been studies every since steroids were discovered. The mainstream dogma states that high testosterone drives cheating behavior (especially of males) as some sort of dominance-asserting behavior of genetically superior organisms. Yet, evidence has been accumulating that cheating, similarly to addiction, is simply a desperate attempt to relieve stress. Often this stress is caused by unrealistic expectations or by driving the message into people’s minds that this or that test can make or break their lives. As the study below shows, elevated cortisol was the impetus behind cheating and people who cheated reported reduced emotional stress, as if the cheating was a form of a “fix” or “hit” that has been shown to temporarily also relieve stress in drug “addicts”. And since the study found that relieving the stress activated reward centers in the brain, the message is once again that one can become “addicted” to cheating. As far as testosterone – its only role was reducing the fear of punishment and allowing the stressed people to act upon their desires to relieve stress. By itself, testosterone had no effects on cheating behavior.

Journal of Experimental Psychology: General

The hormones testosterone and cortisol influence unethical behavior, study finds

“…Researchers asked 117 participants to complete a math test, grade it themselves and self-report the number of correctly completed problems. The more problems they got correct, the more money they would earn. From salivary samples collected before and after the test, researchers found that individuals with elevated levels of testosterone and cortisol were more likely to overstate the number of correctly solved problems. “Elevated testosterone decreases the fear of punishment while increasing sensitivity to reward. Elevated cortisol is linked to an uncomfortable state of chronic stress that can be extremely debilitating,” Josephs said. “Testosterone furnishes the courage to cheat, and elevated cortisol provides a reason to cheat.” Additionally, participants who cheated showed lowered levels of cortisol and reported reductions in emotional distress after the test, as if cheating provided some sort of stress relief. “The stress reduction is accompanied by a powerful stimulation of the reward centers in the brain, so these physiological psychological changes have the unfortunate consequence of reinforcing the unethical behavior,” Josephs said.


100% true in my personal experience.

Everytime I take supplements that spike cortisol I am tempted to cheat and couldn't care less about the consequences.

On the other hand when I take Exemestane I have crazy libido but a very clean behaviour and I don't mingle with the first chick in sight
 

Aymen

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so , playing hard to get/ mind games in relationships , insecurity , are all signs of hormonal imbalance ?
 

brix

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Cortisol is just a byproduct or cofactor of the real cause of cheating. It may be the trigger on the gun but it doesn't pull the trigger.

Monogamy is a conscious choice and conscious commitment. It's not for everyone. But it's just "what you do" and so people end up in relationships without having a clear understanding of who they are and what they want.

I will never cheat. Ever. Know why? Because I refuse to be in a committed relationship. "Cheating" is the breaching of a contract, either spoken or unspoken, declaring sexual loyalty to one person.

The cortisol will come from declaring sexual loyalty to one person when you secretly wish you could have sex with other people. When you start a monogamous relationship when, if you had free reign and could do whatever you wanted without consequence, you would sleep with more than one person.

Lying and hiding your true self is stressful. And it will build and build. Cheating may provide temporary relief but the only real cure is to only have relationships on your terms that align with your true desires.

Monogamy is insane if you have even a slight desire to sleep around. People need to think of things like this before they make a commitment to someone.

Cortisol comes from initiating relationships and making commitments that are out of alignment with your true desires. The solution is obvious. The temporary fix is always fleeting pleasure, whether sex or drugs or whatever.

Your issue stems from viewing relationships as only sexual. Building something with a partner is probably what lowers stress and allows for one to be content with monogamy.
 
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