does anyone here have any real experience or info on what actually goes down if you go to a doctor, a regular doctor, and speak some truth? (with good manners). I just spoke to a relative and heard the vibes...the state, more details, is on many medications including statin...countless horrible side effects that are so out of character for this person. I know exactly whats up. Theres layers of programming on top of it. I got so fired up inside I almost was ready to instantly confront...in a serious way, anyone who was feeding him that stuff. Do doctors even realize they are insane and poisoning people? Like...is it even worth going that route? Or is it better to devote attention to enlightening family member. I realize everything is cause and effect...everyone makes their own choices...but when its this bad, its like watching someone poison your family member in front of your face and kick them in the balls...literally that's how nearly fired up I got hearing what was happening
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I've had a few nightmarish encounters with doctors, but most of the doctors I've had were very excited to exchange thoughts and ideas on science and medicine. I did my homework and I asked questions. Lots of them and then went home and study some more. An example...when I first got hurt, I of course was scared and at the same time was put on estrogen replacement therapy. A deadly combination! I had become very suicidal and Dr. Shanahan didn't believe in antidepressants so she let me come in her office every week to talk science and health with her to help take my mind off of my situation. She was passionate about medicine and I find most doctors are. Think about when you have an interest in something. If someone shows interest in what your interested in, you can't stop talking about it, right? I mean just look at these forums as prime examples. But be forewarned, doctors have to fit in a certain amount of patients in a day so they're under a time crunch. A good reason why doctors can get sloppy at times.
Maybe this will help shift your perspective so you don't feel so frustrated by your relative's doctor and his intentions...there is no doubt I was let down by the medical establishment. Life would be very different for me now had the doctors shown me those x-rays of my translucent bones the first time I went to the hospital looking for help a year prior to fracturing. But the thing is, I don't think for a second that they were intentionally trying to do me in. They were overworked and got sloppy. We all do at some point, it's just that there isn't much room for error in their line of work. And to put up with that kind of stress, I'd say it takes a person who really does want to help people as they hold life and death in their hands day in and day out. And I believe that for the majority of doctors, they are doing the best they can with what they know at the time.
Now with all that said, I think the best use of your energy would be to empower the patient (your relative). That's always the better investment. I know I wouldn't be where I am today had I not come to realize my own power. For us to overcome any of our obstacles, we must first have the "knowing" that we can do so. If they don't know it, that's where you come in. Good luck! I hope your relative feels better soon. :)
Maybe this will help shift your perspective so you don't feel so frustrated by your relative's doctor and his intentions...there is no doubt I was let down by the medical establishment. Life would be very different for me now had the doctors shown me those x-rays of my translucent bones the first time I went to the hospital looking for help a year prior to fracturing. But the thing is, I don't think for a second that they were intentionally trying to do me in. They were overworked and got sloppy. We all do at some point, it's just that there isn't much room for error in their line of work. And to put up with that kind of stress, I'd say it takes a person who really does want to help people as they hold life and death in their hands day in and day out. And I believe that for the majority of doctors, they are doing the best they can with what they know at the time.
Now with all that said, I think the best use of your energy would be to empower the patient (your relative). That's always the better investment. I know I wouldn't be where I am today had I not come to realize my own power. For us to overcome any of our obstacles, we must first have the "knowing" that we can do so. If they don't know it, that's where you come in. Good luck! I hope your relative feels better soon. :)
SQu
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You found a good one, Jennifer. And for seeing what it meant to you to come in and talk every week, I'd go further and say a great one. I'm really happy for you.
But most people aren't that lucky. I have an uncomfortable relationship with mine and would prefer none except that I do want a prescription for thyroid and finally I got one. I have to balance the scare tactics ('your cholesterol is worryingly high! Statins!') with that. I have to keep my head and not be rushed or frightened. My best ally so far has been delaying tactics. Putting things off. Gives me time to research and get back in control. Here, the rushed appointment model helps. He looks at his watch, I say I'll pick up a script later or make another appointment or whatever. I nag a bit, he gives in because he's running late.
But I'm under no illusions. He's a danger and needs to be managed. I can't risk much challenging if I want to walk out of there with my little piece of paper.
Coming at it from the other angle has personally caused me little but anguish. My rule is not to comment meaningfully unless asked. But the only time people did was when I lost weight on hcg. Then they queued up. The irony!!
I break my rule for family but it's a bruising experience which seldom works. I continue to try because it would be worth it if just once or twice I was listened to. But people make their own choices and in the end I usually have to leave them to it.
But most people aren't that lucky. I have an uncomfortable relationship with mine and would prefer none except that I do want a prescription for thyroid and finally I got one. I have to balance the scare tactics ('your cholesterol is worryingly high! Statins!') with that. I have to keep my head and not be rushed or frightened. My best ally so far has been delaying tactics. Putting things off. Gives me time to research and get back in control. Here, the rushed appointment model helps. He looks at his watch, I say I'll pick up a script later or make another appointment or whatever. I nag a bit, he gives in because he's running late.
But I'm under no illusions. He's a danger and needs to be managed. I can't risk much challenging if I want to walk out of there with my little piece of paper.
Coming at it from the other angle has personally caused me little but anguish. My rule is not to comment meaningfully unless asked. But the only time people did was when I lost weight on hcg. Then they queued up. The irony!!
I break my rule for family but it's a bruising experience which seldom works. I continue to try because it would be worth it if just once or twice I was listened to. But people make their own choices and in the end I usually have to leave them to it.
Good topic @pboy.
I wish I could be as diplomatic as Jennifer, but I can't. They're ruining people's health, which is something that has catastrophic cascading effects on mankind. No matter which way I spin it, I still think they're outrageously incompetent, irresponsible, and in some cases downright horrible.
I realise they're under a lot of pressure, that there is insidious indoctrination, time constraints, and so on, but none of those excuses are a solution to a world of people who's health is deteriorating at a frightening rate.
To answer the question, I haven't been to a doctor since mine wanted to give me Viagra to solve my low testosterone (200, the range was 250 - 800) issue when I was 20 years old. I visited 3 times about that issue, and each time I suggested an alternative view, he rolled his eyes and condescended me. I figured he was just grumpy because he was hungry; he was obese, after all.
I wish I could be as diplomatic as Jennifer, but I can't. They're ruining people's health, which is something that has catastrophic cascading effects on mankind. No matter which way I spin it, I still think they're outrageously incompetent, irresponsible, and in some cases downright horrible.
I realise they're under a lot of pressure, that there is insidious indoctrination, time constraints, and so on, but none of those excuses are a solution to a world of people who's health is deteriorating at a frightening rate.
To answer the question, I haven't been to a doctor since mine wanted to give me Viagra to solve my low testosterone (200, the range was 250 - 800) issue when I was 20 years old. I visited 3 times about that issue, and each time I suggested an alternative view, he rolled his eyes and condescended me. I figured he was just grumpy because he was hungry; he was obese, after all.
I'm sorry sueq, for the way your doctor treats you. Dr. Shanahan moved to California a year after I became her patient so she is no longer my doctor. I went through 12 other doctors till I found my current one and she is seriously the most open minded and unconventional doctor I've ever met. The first day I showed up at her office I hear rock music playing in the background and I'm greeted by a doctor with purple hair and a nose ring. I knew then that she was the kind of doctor I had been looking for. :)
Unfortunately, yes, there are doctors out there who have lost sight of why they got into medicine in the first place, assuming they got into it for the right reasons. I would never deny that as I had quite a few insensitive doctors myself. One surgeon, when first meeting me, sat me down and before I could say a word, looked at me and said point blank..."your never getting your height back so don't even ask me. All my osteoporatic elderly patients ask me this so I wanted to get that out of the way!" I wasn't even going to ask him that. I then asked what I could do to naturally heal my bones such as drink raw milk ect. and he replied "I'm not in the business of delving out that kind of information." Which I took as code for "I have no clue! I'm just the cut and paste man." So I went searching for one who did have a clue!
But even after all the lousy doctors, I still know that there are good ones out there, with the best of intentions. And it's our right to go through as many doctors as we need to till we find a good one. I actually contacted the WAPF group in my area and asked if they knew of any good doctors. WAPF members are known to be neurotic about the natural and unconventional and I knew they'd know of a good one and that's how I found my current doctor. I was told she's a bit strange and I thought..."perfect! That's the doctor for me." LOL I then called her office and was put on a waiting list that was 8 months out. Obviously others like strange too!
I just don't want people to start avoiding medical attention because of the lousy doctors who give all the rest a bum rap. There really are good ones out there and I think a good place to start looking is through your local WAPF chapter. You can contact the chapter leader in your area, they have them worldwide, and find out who the good ones are. Here's the link for anyone looking to upgrade:
http://www.westonaprice.org/get-involve ... l-chapter/
Unfortunately, yes, there are doctors out there who have lost sight of why they got into medicine in the first place, assuming they got into it for the right reasons. I would never deny that as I had quite a few insensitive doctors myself. One surgeon, when first meeting me, sat me down and before I could say a word, looked at me and said point blank..."your never getting your height back so don't even ask me. All my osteoporatic elderly patients ask me this so I wanted to get that out of the way!" I wasn't even going to ask him that. I then asked what I could do to naturally heal my bones such as drink raw milk ect. and he replied "I'm not in the business of delving out that kind of information." Which I took as code for "I have no clue! I'm just the cut and paste man." So I went searching for one who did have a clue!
But even after all the lousy doctors, I still know that there are good ones out there, with the best of intentions. And it's our right to go through as many doctors as we need to till we find a good one. I actually contacted the WAPF group in my area and asked if they knew of any good doctors. WAPF members are known to be neurotic about the natural and unconventional and I knew they'd know of a good one and that's how I found my current doctor. I was told she's a bit strange and I thought..."perfect! That's the doctor for me." LOL I then called her office and was put on a waiting list that was 8 months out. Obviously others like strange too!
I just don't want people to start avoiding medical attention because of the lousy doctors who give all the rest a bum rap. There really are good ones out there and I think a good place to start looking is through your local WAPF chapter. You can contact the chapter leader in your area, they have them worldwide, and find out who the good ones are. Here's the link for anyone looking to upgrade:
http://www.westonaprice.org/get-involve ... l-chapter/
Just saw your post, Curt. :)
The problem is, doctors are human just like the rest of us. They're not Gods, but many people treat them like they are. Like they have all the answers. Unfortunately, no one does. Not even Ray Peat. And though they are in a paid authoritative position, they are not our authorities. We are our own and must be are own biggest advocates. We need to do our homework and you all here are "mild blowing" intelligent and completely competent in doing the research and the rest of society is too! We are at a point in time where information is at our fingertips at lightning speed. And if a person doesn't feel comfortable about any of their doctor's decisions or their intuition tells them they're not right for them, then it's their right to decline his/her medical interventions/advice.
Unfortunately, yes, we can get hurt by doctors even if we do all the research because we too are just as human, but we are taking just as many unforeseen risks with all these supplements and hormones and I think it's important to at least keep track of our numbers, specifically those who are just starting out and haven't really learned how to read their bodies yet. And for many people, going to a good doctor who can do the tests can be very helpful. Also, they're a second brain and a second set of eyes. So if a person is dealing with a symptom that they just haven't been able to find a solution for, a doctor may think of something they hadn't thought of before. But the patient has the final say.
It's completely understandable that many take issue with doctors and our medical establishment. But again, I just don't want a person who is in need of medical attention and possibly at their wit's end to avoid doctors completely because of the bad ones.
Okay, I'll shut up now!
The problem is, doctors are human just like the rest of us. They're not Gods, but many people treat them like they are. Like they have all the answers. Unfortunately, no one does. Not even Ray Peat. And though they are in a paid authoritative position, they are not our authorities. We are our own and must be are own biggest advocates. We need to do our homework and you all here are "mild blowing" intelligent and completely competent in doing the research and the rest of society is too! We are at a point in time where information is at our fingertips at lightning speed. And if a person doesn't feel comfortable about any of their doctor's decisions or their intuition tells them they're not right for them, then it's their right to decline his/her medical interventions/advice.
Unfortunately, yes, we can get hurt by doctors even if we do all the research because we too are just as human, but we are taking just as many unforeseen risks with all these supplements and hormones and I think it's important to at least keep track of our numbers, specifically those who are just starting out and haven't really learned how to read their bodies yet. And for many people, going to a good doctor who can do the tests can be very helpful. Also, they're a second brain and a second set of eyes. So if a person is dealing with a symptom that they just haven't been able to find a solution for, a doctor may think of something they hadn't thought of before. But the patient has the final say.
It's completely understandable that many take issue with doctors and our medical establishment. But again, I just don't want a person who is in need of medical attention and possibly at their wit's end to avoid doctors completely because of the bad ones.
Okay, I'll shut up now!
Peata
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Pboy, I understand what you're feeling. I have a relative on probably 10 Rx if not more but they have multiple doctors putting them on different things. It can feel overwhelming as to how to deal with it. If you do talk to the doctor, let us know how it goes.
LucyL
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My experience with doctors has been that most of them have studies they have read (usually provided by the pharmaceutical companies) to back up their methods. If you question their methods, they quote the studies to you. They're a doctor, you're not, therefore they are right and you (must be) wrong. 
In other words, I've never changed a doctor's mind about anything. Now my chiropractor is a different story
He's far more receptive to nutritional research. And I had an obgyn once with a very good grasp on thyroid and hormonal therapies, for a conventional doctor. Sadly he retired.
I think Micheal Eades (the protein power guy) wrote once that case studies were good tools for influencing doctors. Since they are short and interesting, the doctors are more apt to read them.
In other words, I've never changed a doctor's mind about anything. Now my chiropractor is a different story
He's far more receptive to nutritional research. And I had an obgyn once with a very good grasp on thyroid and hormonal therapies, for a conventional doctor. Sadly he retired.I think Micheal Eades (the protein power guy) wrote once that case studies were good tools for influencing doctors. Since they are short and interesting, the doctors are more apt to read them.
appreiciate everything you guys wrote. I figure I wont likely be able to change their mind about anything...and even so, at some point the person I suppose has to by their own intuition find a better doctor, or other type of doctor like a more holistically minded. Yea it got me fired up yesterday, its not something terribly acute so ive calmed down now...but it takes a large amount of mind to manage the situation...its a situation where I know exactly what to do to help the person, but cant crack the lock open...if you know what I mean. And there are day to day things like hand pain, joint pain, memory hazy, and sleep problems. The doctors make is so much harder by their assuming all knowing position, authority, amount of money in it, properly formulated scare rhetoric.
Im glad to hear other people have had (well im not glad, glad that I don't feel alone) or know of similar experiences and whats going on. I agree Curt...its really to catastrophic porportions at this point, and is in my opinion a malevolent out of control system, that is being endorsed by supposed protective agencies. I feel better at least knowing theres hope and more people that are aware. I think im going to spend my effort just working on talking to my relative...in a calm way, dropping things when I can at the right time. Appreciate
Im glad to hear other people have had (well im not glad, glad that I don't feel alone) or know of similar experiences and whats going on. I agree Curt...its really to catastrophic porportions at this point, and is in my opinion a malevolent out of control system, that is being endorsed by supposed protective agencies. I feel better at least knowing theres hope and more people that are aware. I think im going to spend my effort just working on talking to my relative...in a calm way, dropping things when I can at the right time. Appreciate
pboy said:
Oh yes, it is sad! The system even has doctors over a barrel. My doctor is now down to one nurse who does double duty as the receptionist because she couldn't afford to keep the rest of her staff due to the new Obamacare laws (not sure if you're in the US, pboy) and insurance laws. I don't know the specifics, but she's at the point where, at the age of 40, she still hasn't been able to pay off her school loans and is barely breaking even because of the new laws.
LucyL, I had two really good doctors previously who retired also. One because he couldn't stand how messed up the medical systems had become. It's frustrating! The doctor I have now is a regular GP, but with a more holistic approach so she accepts insurance, but understands good nutrition and natural methods to health. Whereas, when I had a naturopath, at the time, naturopaths couldn't accept insurance so I was practically going broke seeing her. It's too bad because she has a background in biochemistry and was a good doctor. I'm not positive, but I think they changed the laws about 6 months after I stopped seeing her. She's president of the New Hampshire Association of Naturopathic Doctors and was fighting to get the laws changed so that they could start accepting insurance.
I also saw a really good chiropractor with a good understanding of nutrition. It was great because he was a former football player and he knew how to use tools like KT tape to help stabilize my injury to help reduce some of the pain I got from muscle fatigue, since I refused to use any medication.
So yeah, a few different options out there.
LucyL
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Jennifer said:
This is exactly how I view doctors. My realistic expectations for a doctor are someone who is willing to answer a lot of questions, and who is very thorough in their exams and thinking. They are, after all, a much better trained set of eyes than mine. I want their diagnosis, treatment opinions and then I'll take it from there.
honeybee
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Your relationship with your doctor can/should be viewed as any other importannt personal relationship. If it is not satisfying your or meeting your needs, then move on and find another.
My elderly Aunt was dx with alzheimers late last year. A diligent nurse was reviewing her file recently and noticed probs with her many meds. She was taken off that med-voila-no more alzheimers. Frightening. It took almost a year for someone, anyone, of all of the providers she sees (alot ) to figure it out. And it was a nurse-NOT a doc-who found the discrepancy.
I think of all the disciplines, emergency medicine is probably the most useful. It saved my life once.
Unless the incentives to practice medicine are changed/modified/eliminated, and the litigation policies dealt with effectively, then the medical establishement has no reason to change. Its about cashola-and there's alot of jobs and industries built on the system.
My elderly Aunt was dx with alzheimers late last year. A diligent nurse was reviewing her file recently and noticed probs with her many meds. She was taken off that med-voila-no more alzheimers. Frightening. It took almost a year for someone, anyone, of all of the providers she sees (alot ) to figure it out. And it was a nurse-NOT a doc-who found the discrepancy.
I think of all the disciplines, emergency medicine is probably the most useful. It saved my life once.
Unless the incentives to practice medicine are changed/modified/eliminated, and the litigation policies dealt with effectively, then the medical establishement has no reason to change. Its about cashola-and there's alot of jobs and industries built on the system.
Lilac
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Jennifer: Was your doctor Dr. Cate Shanahan?
LucyL said:
I agree! I ask questions and take the answers I get and go home and research. Once I feel informed enough with the information I've looked into, I go back to my doctor, first checking my ego at the door so I don't discredit all of her advice without hearing her out and I then form a game plan with her. That's why I feel it's essential, especially for the very ill, to not avoid practitioners entirely, but to find ones they can have a partnership with. A back and forth of information and ideas till something rings true for the patient. The best practitioner for me is one who leaves me empowered by the end of our visit.
I will admit that finding a good match in a practitioner usually involves "shopping around" before you find the right fit and it can be so disheartening and frustrating at times, but it's definitely worth the effort. I'm a bit worried though with how much harder this is going to be with Obamacare in place.
Honeybee, I agree with what you wrote and I'm so happy for your Aunts recovery. What an amazing discovery by that nurse. My grandmother had Alzheimer's and I prayed all the time for there to be some kind of discovery as to what was causing it and then heal her. It's great to hear that actually happened for someone.
Lilac, yes, my doctor was Dr. Cate Shanahan.
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