So Called 'Elevation Masks' Suitable For CO2 Increase?

[DawN]

So after a period of not being active here (for reasons that will clarify through some further threads in future) I'd like to drop in again with a idea, namely if the elevation masks, popular especially among MMA'nians, would be suitable for increasing the reabsorption of CO2 into the lungs instead of this phukkin' stinking plastic bags or not really comfortable to use paper bags?

It is clear to me that the advertised 'high altitude training simulation' is a total scam, but why not use them devices for our purposes? Would it work? I highly appreciate any thoughts or experiences about that.

 

[ecstatichamster]

I think they are helpful for raising CO2 levels but bag breathing increases CO2 in the air you breathe. The masks don't.

 

[REOSIRENS]

I think they are helpful for raising CO2 levels but bag breathing increases CO2 in the air you breathe. The masks don't.

The mask does the same as paper breathing...it helps you inhale less oxygen and more CO2...but it is not comfortable and sometimes you have to wear it very tight around your face causing some vasoconstriction on that area so nullifying some of the benefits that comes with CO2 increase(mainly vasodilation and improved blood circulation)

 

[Such_Saturation]

I think they just make it harder to breathe

 

[tara]

Here's Rakhimov's assessment:

http://www.normalbreathing.com/d/training-mask.php

 

[ecstatichamster]

I didn't realize the newer mask has dead space. That changes everything. I have the old version that does not have it.

 

[jitsmonkey]

Ray's recommendation re: bag breathing is to stop before a point of stress.
I've used the TM and there's no question you reach a hypoxic state fairly quickly.

Its not similar to elevation which is why for legal purposes they were forced to change their original name from
elevation mask to training mask. If anything an accurate name would be "hypoxia mask"
Just use free, simple ol bag breathing or get yourself a co2 tank or hook up with Scott at carbogen
but don't waste your time, stress or money w a TM.

 

[tara]

I've used the TM and there's no question you reach a hypoxic state fairly quickly.

Out of curiosity, did you find this with the most permissive of the valves as well as the most challenging? While exercising or not?

 

[jitsmonkey]

here's what I do recall.
a) it off gasses horribly. Stinks terribly. I was even hesitant to work with it but I really wanted to see what it could do.
b) while there is dead space its not much. there's nothing you can do with it that you can't do with a 2 litre bottle and a hole or two drilled.
c) the most permissive valves were no different than the 2 liter bottle with a couple of holes in it that Dan has posted about

my point is whether you use a bag and stop before stress or you use a 2 litre bottle
there's just no reason to use this incredibly overhyped, very stinky off gassing device.
just keep it simple

 

[tara]

a) it off gasses horribly. Stinks terribly.

That seems like a big down-side. Did it still stink after a couple of months out of it's packaging?

b) while there is dead space its not much.

That 's another significant down-side.

A two litre bottle doesn't fit on the face without a bit of time and effort to connect it to some kind of face-hugging mask construction. One way to keep it simple, for people who have more money than time and energy, is to buy something ready made for the purpose, rather than DIY. But it looks as though this isn't optimal, from your description.

 

[Herbie]

If I was going to spend money and upgrade from the brown paper bag I would buy a big bottle of co2 fill up garbage bin bags with co2 and immerse myself inside the bag like Ray has explained.

If I bag breath too long and too fast I gag/choke/ dry reach because the co2 becomes to high.

To prevent the gag reflex with bag breathing I place my thumbs up towards my ears instead of under the jaw towards the front of the neck.

 

[tara]

If I bag breath too long and too fast I gag/choke/ dry reach because the co2 becomes to high.

I don't think there is any benefit to bag-breathing longer than slight discomfort, or bag-breathing fast at all.

To prevent the gag reflex with bag breathing I place my thumbs up towards my ears instead of under the jaw towards the front of the neck.

Why are your thumbs involved at all?

If I was going to spend money and upgrade from the brown paper bag I would buy a big bottle of co2 fill up garbage bin bags with co2 and immerse myself inside the bag like Ray has explained.

I reckon this is worth a go. Do watch out not to overwhelm yourself by breathing excessive leaking CO2. I'd recommend having a spotter around at least the first time you try it.

 

[Herbie]

Why are your thumbs involved at all?

To hold the bag over the face.

 

[jitsmonkey]

I don't think there is any benefit to bag-breathing longer than slight discomfort, or bag-breathing fast at all.


Why are your thumbs involved at all?


I reckon this is worth a go. Do watch out not to overwhelm yourself by breathing excessive leaking CO2. I'd recommend having a spotter around at least the first time you try it.

Bag breathing gently and stopping well before hypoxia is helpful for many. Beyond that just creates unneeded and unwanted distress.

For the 2 litre bottle you just put it in your mouth is as simple as could be, no need for breathing mask

for breathing co2 using a canister there's no need for a spotter. Breathing co2 is incredibly self-regulating
c02 is a lewis acid if you breathe too much too fast it BURNS, you'll stop right quick, no problem. And you won't do it again.

 

[DawN]

@jitsmonkey: I thank you a lot for sharing your experiences, very valuable!

 

[tara]

Bag breathing gently and stopping well before hypoxia is helpful for many. Beyond that just creates unneeded and unwanted distress.

Agreed.

For the 2 litre bottle you just put it in your mouth is as simple as could be, no need for breathing mask

Clench it in your teeth while you're doing the dishes and peg your nose shut? I'm thinking an arrangement that is comfortable and does not add unnecessary stress and is consistent with nasal breathing would be nice, but it's OK, you don't have to solve it for me. :)

for breathing co2 using a canister there's no need for a spotter. Breathing co2 is incredibly self-regulating
c02 is a lewis acid if you breathe too much too fast it BURNS, you'll stop right quick, no problem. And you won't do it again.

He wasn't talking about deliberately breathing CO2 from a cannister, he was talking about immersing in it. And he wasn't talking about using a little cannister, he was talking about using a big bottle.
It is possible to accidentally inhale too much this way. I've accidentally breathed a small amount that was too much, and yes, it burns (and tastes like drinking soda water) - just a little puffed out from the bag I was sitting in was enough to make me feel briefly faint. If I got faint while the valve was wide open filling the bag, and lost control, that might not be great, esp. in an enclosed space with no-one else around. Also, the outlet can get cold enough to freeze a hand stuck to it. This could potentially mess with timely handling of the valve. I'm completely confident that I can have control of it myself after my first experiment, but just the first time, it would be good to be careful. Not because I think an accident is likely, but because I think it is possible, and I hold safety as important.

 

[jitsmonkey]

Tara the 2 litre bottle is in fact comfortable and not stressful but as you said you can find your own way

Regarding using a co2 canister/bottle you are 100% correct.
I would expect someone going to the trouble and expense of accessing such a setup would have studied enough to know all those possibilities and avoid them.
I agree safety is priority #1. If they don't know that their hand can freeze or that there are precautions to take I don't think they've studied enough and
shouldn't be engaging with the practice at all until they've made that study. I agree it would be ill advised to undertake that way.

 

[NathanK]

Pretty sure the device is only good for strengthening lung muscles. Dont see how it would have an incresed CO2 effect

 

[tara]

Tara the 2 litre bottle is in fact comfortable and not stressful but as you said you can find your own way

I guess I should give it a go. With a nose peg or something.
It's certainly a lot cheaper than some of the alternatives.
The thing I use most often is still a cloth over my head some nights. Also cheap and simple.

 

[Dan W]

When using the water bottle approach, I "close off" nose breathing with my soft palate rather than using a nose peg. Leaves the freedom of getting a fresh breath through the nose if desired.

For less cumbersome use than a 2l bottle, I've also experimented with 1l bottles and paper bags rubber-banded around a tube clenched in my teeth. Needless to say, they all make you look *super* cool.