Anti-Peat Where is there good evidence that challenges the Central Dogma (and the safety of injecting foreign RNA)?

Arclight

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When discussing the possibility of mRNA vaccines being something that could have long lasting negative effects, you sooner or later end up discussing "the central dogma".
I have talked to friends who claim there is no proof that Sars-CoV-2, or parts of the RNA injected could reverse transcribe and integrate into our genome through vaccination, because it's not a retrovirus. They use arguments like the ones brought up in this article:


And if you look online for information about reverse transcription of retroviruses, some sources claim that neither this process violates the central dogma ("Contrary to a widely held belief, the process does not violate the flows of genetic information as described by the classical central dogma, as transfers of information from RNA to DNA are explicitly held possible").

I have heard Ray Peats views on the matter in several interviews. And I have heard him mention Walter Doerfler as someone who according to Ray has shown that humans can integrate foreign RNA, but I have not been able to find any of his material showing this.

Is there really any good proof that could be of use in these types of discussions?

 
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Prolonged SARS-CoV-2 RNA shedding and recurrence of PCR-positive tests have been widely reported in patients after recovery, yet these patients most commonly are non-infectious. Here we investigated the possibility that SARS-CoV-2 RNAs can be reverse-transcribed and integrated into the human genome and that transcription of the integrated sequences might account for PCR-positive tests. In support of this hypothesis, we found chimeric transcripts consisting of viral fused to cellular sequences in published data sets of SARS-CoV-2 infected cultured cells and primary cells of patients, consistent with the transcription of viral sequences integrated into the genome. To experimentally corroborate the possibility of viral retro-integration, we describe evidence that SARS-CoV-2 RNAs can be reverse transcribed in human cells by reverse transcriptase (RT) from LINE-1 elements or by HIV-1 RT, and that these DNA sequences can be integrated into the cell genome and subsequently be transcribed. Human endogenous LINE-1 expression was induced upon SARS-CoV-2 infection or by cytokine exposure in cultured cells, suggesting a molecular mechanism for SARS-CoV-2 retro-integration in patients. This novel feature of SARS-CoV-2 infection may explain why patients can continue to produce viral RNA after recovery and suggests a new aspect of RNA virus replication.
 

Arclight

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Prolonged SARS-CoV-2 RNA shedding and recurrence of PCR-positive tests have been widely reported in patients after recovery, yet these patients most commonly are non-infectious. Here we investigated the possibility that SARS-CoV-2 RNAs can be reverse-transcribed and integrated into the human genome and that transcription of the integrated sequences might account for PCR-positive tests. In support of this hypothesis, we found chimeric transcripts consisting of viral fused to cellular sequences in published data sets of SARS-CoV-2 infected cultured cells and primary cells of patients, consistent with the transcription of viral sequences integrated into the genome. To experimentally corroborate the possibility of viral retro-integration, we describe evidence that SARS-CoV-2 RNAs can be reverse transcribed in human cells by reverse transcriptase (RT) from LINE-1 elements or by HIV-1 RT, and that these DNA sequences can be integrated into the cell genome and subsequently be transcribed. Human endogenous LINE-1 expression was induced upon SARS-CoV-2 infection or by cytokine exposure in cultured cells, suggesting a molecular mechanism for SARS-CoV-2 retro-integration in patients. This novel feature of SARS-CoV-2 infection may explain why patients can continue to produce viral RNA after recovery and suggests a new aspect of RNA virus replication.

Thank's! However, I think it's this very preprint that the article I posted a link to above is claiming to be faulty, aiming to refute it:

"A preprint has recently surfaced and been seized upon as proof that SARS-CoV-2 is being reverse transcribed into our genome, and somehow the argument has been extended to be that this means that vaccines, in particular mRNA vaccines, against SARS-CoV-2, are unsafe. If you want a short read of the problems Marius Walter, postdoc in the Verdin lab summarized the implausibility of the paper’s claims here fairly comprehensively.

The claim that SARS-CoV-2 is being reverse transcribed into our genome is an extraordinary claim, and in science we have a saying: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Let me be very explicit here: by no stretch of the imagination does this paper provide any convincing evidence to support this idea, let alone something close to the Sagan standard.

First though, let’s discuss a bit on why this claim is extraordinary:


  1. SARS-CoV-2 is not a retrovirus. It has no means of producing a DNA transcript nor integrating it into a host’s genome. The argument made in this preprint is not that SARS-CoV-2 itself is doing the reverse transcription and integration, however.
  2. Endogenous human reverse transcription is extremely rare and limited to a few genetic entities, and occurs in a sequence-specific manner. It is extremely implausible that host reverse transcriptases could pick up random cytosolic RNA and simply place it into the genome, discussed in more detail here.
  3. Coronaviruses kill the cells they infect; it would be very unusual to see a virus that is lethal to the cells it infects integrate, and furthermore, as long as they had a coronavirus infection the cells would eventually die.

 

haidut

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When discussing the possibility of mRNA vaccines being something that could have long lasting negative effects, you sooner or later end up discussing "the central dogma".
I have talked to friends who claim there is no proof that Sars-CoV-2, or parts of the RNA injected could reverse transcribe and integrate into our genome through vaccination, because it's not a retrovirus. They use arguments like the ones brought up in this article:


And if you look online for information about reverse transcription of retroviruses, some sources claim that neither this process violates the central dogma ("Contrary to a widely held belief, the process does not violate the flows of genetic information as described by the classical central dogma, as transfers of information from RNA to DNA are explicitly held possible").

I have heard Ray Peats views on the matter in several interviews. And I have heard him mention Walter Doerfler as someone who according to Ray has shown that humans can integrate foreign RNA, but I have not been able to find any of his material showing this.

Is there really any good proof that could be of use in these types of discussions?


Here are some links on the Central Dogma portion.

As far as the organism incorporating foreign DNA/RNA, I suspect the most direct evidence is the first link from the list above, which was coincidentally also provided by @ecstatichamster. It is a great study, because it actually demonstrates cross-species (human-to-mouse) RNA-to-DNA incorporation, which is relevant for your second question (viral mRNA from vaccine affecting our DNA) . There is also the so-called telegony, even though telegony can occur even without DNA changes.

Btw, this list is non-exhaustive. If you look into some of the references of the studies those threads discuss you will find many, many others with similar findings. I suspect that the only thing still keeping Central Dogma alive is the same kind of institutional fraud and sheeple mentality (in both scientists and general population) that allowed for the worldwide "pandemic" to be accepted as real, and to allow imposed lockdowns/austerity, which has decimated many lives and economies alike.
 

Mrscorpion360

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Here are some links on the Central Dogma portion.

As far as the organism incorporating foreign DNA/RNA, I suspect the most direct evidence is the first link from the list above, which was coincidentally also provided by @ecstatichamster. It is a great study, because it actually demonstrates cross-species (human-to-mouse) RNA-to-DNA incorporation, which is relevant for your second question (viral mRNA from vaccine affecting our DNA) . There is also the so-called telegony, even though telegony can occur even without DNA changes.

Btw, this list is non-exhaustive. If you look into some of the references of the studies those threads discuss you will find many, many others with similar findings. I suspect that the only thing still keeping Central Dogma alive is the same kind of institutional fraud and sheeple mentality (in both scientists and general population) that allowed for the worldwide "pandemic" to be accepted as real, and to allow imposed lockdowns/austerity, which has decimated many lives and economies alike.
What about the epigeneticist that downright debunks epigenetics? The social construction of the social epigenome and the larger biological context <- there’s so much toxicity in this article.

not to mention, are you also aware that the human genome project is “incomplete” Psst, the human genome was never completely sequenced <- the reason for its incompletion is because heterochromatin are found in centromeres and telomeres, and were not sequenced under the project. Can you touch on this and give me answers on these two articles when you can please?
 

Mufasa

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Jun 10, 2016
Messages
538
First though, let’s discuss a bit on why this claim is extraordinary:

  1. SARS-CoV-2 is not a retrovirus. It has no means of producing a DNA transcript nor integrating it into a host’s genome. The argument made in this preprint is not that SARS-CoV-2 itself is doing the reverse transcription and integration, however.
  2. Endogenous human reverse transcription is extremely rare and limited to a few genetic entities, and occurs in a sequence-specific manner. It is extremely implausible that host reverse transcriptases could pick up random cytosolic RNA and simply place it into the genome, discussed in more detail here.
  3. Coronaviruses kill the cells they infect; it would be very unusual to see a virus that is lethal to the cells it infects integrate, and furthermore, as long as they had a coronavirus infection the cells would eventually die.

Point 1 is not important as you say yourself.
Point 2 is answered in the study, a cytokine storm had been shown to activate endogenous reverse transcriptase from LINE-1 elements. The spike protein itself is responsible for the COVID associated cytokine storms.
Point 3 would make mrna vaccination only more dangerous as that is less likely to kill the cell.
 
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