Sterile Gut Linked to Altered Social Behavior in Mice

Discussion in 'Articles & Scientific Studies' started by jaa, May 28, 2013.

  1. jaa

    jaa Member

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  2. pboy

    pboy Member

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    so we should stop straining our OJ and stop eating raw carrots? Or is it too late if you didn't' already develop the healthy gut as a baby? (My personal opinion is that if no one ever told me anything about gut bacteria I wouldn't know they existed, and never would have cared. The farthest extent I take this is that if a food has visible mold on it, I don't eat it...pretty simple. All the other stuff may or may not be true, but no one knows, its all skeptical, hypothetical, you have people on literally the opposite ends of the spectrum claiming to know the truth...and its all about something invisible)
     
  3. FunkOdyssey

    FunkOdyssey Member

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    It is impossible for a human to achieve a sterile gut so its a moot question. Even if you fasted completely, you secrete mucous that supports the maintenance of bacterial populations in the gut. You'd have to be a literal "bubble boy" from birth. Similiarly, antibiotics reduce bacterial population in the gut but never come close to complete eradication, no matter the dosage / combination of drugs / length of treatment.

    Peatarianism keeps gut bacterial populations low and controlled by limiting their food supply, but definitely a far cry from sterile.

    At the risk of going off on a tangent, carrots don't have an antibacterial effect on gut populations when consumed. Studies clearly show increased fecal mass, SCFA production and gas production with addition of carrots to the diet, all markers of bacterial growth & reproduction. It behaves like any other fiber in that respect, contrary to Peat's claims. It DOES increase excretion of bile and reduces estrogen and etc though.
     
  4. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    Can you please post a link to the carrot study you are talking about.
    Peat really does not claim that none of the fiber of carrot is ingested by bacteria
    50 percent of carrot fiber is pectin, so it surely would feed some bacteria.
    Adding coconut oil and vinegar makes carrot salad more effective against bacteria.
    It will make a big difference how people in that study eat their raw carrot
    The anti bacterial property of raw carrot helps with minimizing the bacterial feeding.
    RP also recommends cutting fiber longitudinally so it would stay intact for most part
    of its journey through intestine. He suggests against chewing it thoroughly.
     
  5. FunkOdyssey

    FunkOdyssey Member

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    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/32/9/1889.long

    The thing that made me start thinking about this was noticing that after ingesting some raw carrot, either alone or as the prescribed salad, there was no visible undigested carrot left in the stool. Meaning, it was evidently broken down and eaten by bacteria. Sure enough, research confirms the carrot's fate as a bacterial snack.
     
  6. jyb

    jyb Member

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    I differ on that observation. I can see undigested carrot left. Otherwise, I have almost no gas.
     
  7. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    This study does not give a good information on change of gut flora except for hydrogen test.
    They could have easily measured the change in gut flora like most prebiotic/fiber studies do.
    They ate the carrot with breakfast which will change the outcome. RP suggest eating carrot
    separate from meal. The study mentions pentose in carrot having special water binding capacity
    and then they guessed that fiber fermentation in colon was a factor. We do not really know how much of
    soluble fiber was ingested by bacteria and what amount left in stool. Insoluble part was not feeding bacteria, 45 percent of fiber was cellulose.It is a good study showing how small amount of carrot fiber lowers cholesterol and increase volume.
    They did not measure change in estrogen, which is the major reason for using carrot.
    I have excellent result with carrot, and i have noticed there is considerable difference on quality
    of carrot. Bland carrots do not have that positive affect.
     
  8. FunkOdyssey

    FunkOdyssey Member

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    Here's another study which demonstrates that between eight vegetable fibers, carrot is the most thoroughly fermented, and supports the highest short-chain fatty acid (SCFA) production (a byproduct of bacterial metabolism): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8387579
     
  9. frustrated

    frustrated Member

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    Came in to post this.
     
  10. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    This is an in vitro study showing pectin feeds bacteria. By definition soluble fiber feeds bacteria.
    There is not question about it. Depending on gut flora one can break down cellulose too. Ray Peat knows that
    pectin part of carrot feeds bacteria. that is why he adds so many steps to minimize that. When RP talks about bamboo shoots he does not say anything about longitudinal shredding , eat separate from meal or adding coconut oil and vinegar.
    Because 90% of bamboo shoot is celluose, so there is a very small scope of bacteria feeding.
    None of these studies are following RP's way of carrot eating. We really cant conclude from these studies that
    all the pectin in carrot is digested by bacteria if we eat it like RP raw carrot salad.
     
  11. Gabriel

    Gabriel Member

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    The human gut is over 8 meters long and evolutionary specialized to absorb the maximum of energy and nutrients from a wide range of foods, using stomach acid, proteases, lipases, gut bacteria and motility to break down foods. I find it hard to believe 1. why longitudinal shredding should make any difference from just chewing a carrot and 2. why modest consumption of the right fiber by the right bacteria should be harmful. I have to agree with FunkOddyssey's remarks.
     
  12. HDD

    HDD Member

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    Thought it might help to see the quotes from the articles:

    Endotoxin formed in the bowel can block respiration and cause hormone imbalances contributing to instability of the nerves, so it is helpful to optimize bowel flora, for example with a carrot salad; a dressing of vinegar, coconut oil and olive oil, carried into the intestine by the carrot fiber, suppresses bacterial growth while stimulating healing of the wall of the intestine. The carrot salad improves the ratio of progesterone to estrogen and cortisol, and so is as appropriate for epilepsy as for premenstrual syndrome, insomnia, or arthritis. 
    raypeat.com/articles/articles/epilepsy-progesterone.shtml


    There are interesting associations between vegetable “fiber” and estrogens. Because of my own experience in finding that eating a raw carrot daily prevented my migraines, I began to suspect that the carrot fiber was having both a bowel-protective and an antiestrogen effect. Several women who suffered from premenstrual symptoms, including migraine, had their serum estrogen measured before and after the “carrot diet,” and they found that the carrot lowered their estrogen within a few days, as it relieved their symptoms. 

    Undigestible fiber, if it isn't broken down by bowel bacteria, increases fecal bulk, and tends to speed the transit of material through the intestine, just as laxatives do. But some of these “fiber” materials, e.g., lignin, are themselves estrogenic, and other fibers, by promoting bacterial growth, can promote the conversion of harmless substances into toxins and carcinogens. When there is a clear “antiestrogen” effect from dietary fiber, it seems to be the result of accelerated transit through the intestine, speeding elimination and preventing reabsorption of the estrogen which has been excreted in the bile. Laxatives have this same effect on the excretion of estradiol. 
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/na ... gens.shtml

    Chronic constipation, and anxiety which decreases blood circulation in the intestine, can increase the liver's exposure to endotoxin. Endotoxin (like intense physical activity) causes the estrogen concentration of the blood to rise. Diets that speed intestinal peristalsis might be expected to postpone menopause. Penicillin treatment, probably by lowering endotoxin production, is known to decrease estrogen and cortisone, while increasing progesterone. The same effect can be achieved by eating raw carrots (especially with coconut oil/olive oil dressing) every day, to reduce the amount of bacterial toxins absorbed, and to help in the excretion of estrogen. 
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/menopause.shtml
     
  13. Gabriel

    Gabriel Member

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    Thanks for putting them together, but nowhere he states specifically that carrots inhibit bacterial growth. He just said that they speed up bowel transit and thereby aide excretion of estrogen and bacterial toxins. "Promoting bacterial growth" is nothing bad per se, the question is "promoting growth of the right bacteria and inhibiting growth of the wrong (endotoxin producing) bacteria".
     
  14. Mittir

    Mittir Member

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    Ray Peat many times mentioned in his interviews and email correspondence that raw carrot has anti bacterial ability.
    There are published studies on pub med too.
    here is link to some of his email advice.
    http://www.dannyroddy.com/main/2011/12/ ... tandi.html
    here is link to his audio interviews
    http://eastwesthealing.com/podcasts/ray-peat/
     
  15. Gabriel

    Gabriel Member

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    Thanks mittir! Still, I don't want to be picky but he says the carrot fiber just "carries" the vinegar, coconut oil and olive oil into the intestine without giving a clear reference to the totality of this statement (that the combination will inhibit growth) or the single argument (that carrot by itself inhibits growth). Guess I'll have to listen to the interviews and try to dig some more research into that direction.
     
  16. HDD

    HDD Member

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    In the podcast from East West Healing, "Ray Peat: Serotonin and Endotoxin"' , Ray Peat explains the carrot, being a root vegetable, has an antiseptic benefit due to their defense against the mold that would cause them to rot.
     
  17. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

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    :yeahthat
     
  18. pboy

    pboy Member

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    I just listened to an interview where he said 'there's very few known types of microbes that can live on a carrot' ...basically it just doesn't promote new growth, and most existing bacteria cant eat it or they die...but the carrot itself doesn't excrete compounds and kill things, it just prevents them from eating it and living on it. The coconut and vinegar are more potent for actually killing off the existing bacteria...the carrot is more of a self defending sweeper / toxin binder. Peat even says saturated fat itself is antimicrobial, so even ghee or butter eaten with the carrot would help in killing overgrowths. I suspect just the sweeping nature of the carrot fiber would probably pull some microbes and gas out with it but its not intelligently secreting defensive molecules into the gut or anything
     
  19. HDD

    HDD Member

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    "raw carrots have their germicidal defense that help to kill off bacterial population where it shouldn't be"
     
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