PUFA increase CVD risk while saturated fats decrease it

[Derek]

The first thought I had reading this study was that it's probably funded by the dairy industry. Then you can find another study saying PUFA decreases CVD and SFA increases; which is likely put out by the seed oil industry. So then what's the truth? I think all the talk about praising one fat and demonizing the other is beside the point. People are over consuming fat, whether it be peanut butter or ice cream, it doesn't really matter. Too much fat will cause inflammation. Then you add sugar to this, sugar combined with fat of any type is going to cause arterial damage.

The PUFA/SFA ratio doesn't really matter. PUFA causes the damage you speak of and SFA has to heal and repair that damage in the arteries by clogging them. So I guess the message would be to just eat saturated fat and no PUFA, but it's not that easy because sugar in the presence of a high fat diet can also cause arteriosclerosis and increase the risk of CVD even if no to very low PUFA is consumed. This is evidenced by some of my friends who eat no PUFA oils or fats and tons of ice cream and have CVD! So then is it the sugar or the saturated fat causing their problems? Well knowing that most diets that have been used to heal heart disease successfully emphasized low to no fat and very high carb (sometimes up to a pound of sugar a day) this leads me to believe that all fat causes CVD/arteriosclerosis!

 

[haidut]

post 107596 The first thought I had reading this study was that it's probably funded by the dairy industry. Then you can find another study saying PUFA decreases CVD and SFA increases; which is likely put out by the seed oil industry. So then what's the truth? I think all the talk about praising one fat and demonizing the other is beside the point. People are over consuming fat, whether it be peanut butter or ice cream, it doesn't really matter. Too much fat will cause inflammation. Then you add sugar to this, sugar combined with fat of any type is going to cause arterial damage.

The PUFA/SFA ratio doesn't really matter. PUFA causes the damage you speak of and SFA has to heal and repair that damage in the arteries by clogging them. So I guess the message would be to just eat saturated fat and no PUFA, but it's not that easy because sugar in the presence of a high fat diet can also cause arteriosclerosis and increase the risk of CVD even if no to very low PUFA is consumed. This is evidenced by some of my friends who eat no PUFA oils or fats and tons of ice cream and have CVD! So then is it the sugar or the saturated fat causing their problems? Well knowing that most diets that have been used to heal heart disease successfully emphasized low to no fat and very high carb (sometimes up to a pound of sugar a day) this leads me to believe that all fat causes CVD/arteriosclerosis!

Just because some of the people you know eat high SFA and still have CVD does not mean SFA causes CVD. They could very well be eating high SFA as a form of self-medication to lower their already high inflammation. Again, SFA has no known mechanism through which it can increase inflammation. PUFA does, and all anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID, steroids, etc) currently available (prescription or OTC) target one or more of the PUFA metabolites. Is this fact lost on most people?? Also, not sure how sugar can cause inflammation. Can you please explain the mechanism?
That does not mean eating copious amounts of SFA is wise either, as it tends to inhibit the oxidation of glucose even though much less so than PUFA. But in a world filled with PUFA, eating SFA may be the primary defense mechanism most people have if they are not willing to ingest drugs or supplements. SFA inhibit both 5-lipoxygenase (LOX) and cyclooxygenase (COX) enzymes and thus stop the inflammatory process much like aspirin and caffeine do. So, SFA is our primary food-derived defense against inflammation, and that inflammation can endogenously only come from PUFA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24359271
"...CONCLUSION: Both in-vitro and docking studies demonstrated Vcpal (ascorbyl palmitate) but not ascorbic acid as a non-competitive inhibitor of 5-LOX- and sLOX-induced lipid peroxidation, suggesting a key role for lipophilic nature in bringing about inhibition."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9397995
"...The most severe inflammation and fibrosis were detected in groups 1 and 5, as were the highest levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, and mRNA for Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. After ethanol was discontinued, there was minimal histological improvement in group 2 but near normalization of the histology, including regression of fibrosis, in groups 3 and 4. Histological improvement was associated with decreased levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, and reduced expression of Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. The data indicate that a diet enriched in saturated fatty acids (groups 3 and 4) effectively reverses alcohol-induced liver injury, including fibrosis. The therapeutic effects of saturated fatty acids may be explained, at least in part, by reduced endotoxemia and lipid peroxidation, which in turn result in decreased levels of TNF-alpha and Cox-2."

 

[Derek]

post 107600

post 107596 The first thought I had reading this study was that it's probably funded by the dairy industry. Then you can find another study saying PUFA decreases CVD and SFA increases; which is likely put out by the seed oil industry. So then what's the truth? I think all the talk about praising one fat and demonizing the other is beside the point. People are over consuming fat, whether it be peanut butter or ice cream, it doesn't really matter. Too much fat will cause inflammation. Then you add sugar to this, sugar combined with fat of any type is going to cause arterial damage.

The PUFA/SFA ratio doesn't really matter. PUFA causes the damage you speak of and SFA has to heal and repair that damage in the arteries by clogging them. So I guess the message would be to just eat saturated fat and no PUFA, but it's not that easy because sugar in the presence of a high fat diet can also cause arteriosclerosis and increase the risk of CVD even if no to very low PUFA is consumed. This is evidenced by some of my friends who eat no PUFA oils or fats and tons of ice cream and have CVD! So then is it the sugar or the saturated fat causing their problems? Well knowing that most diets that have been used to heal heart disease successfully emphasized low to no fat and very high carb (sometimes up to a pound of sugar a day) this leads me to believe that all fat causes CVD/arteriosclerosis!

Just because some of the people you know eat high SFA and still have CVD does not mean SFA causes CVD. They could very well be eating high SFA as a form of self-medication to lower their already high inflammation. Again, SFA has no known mechanism through which it can increase inflammation. PUFA does, and all anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID, steroids, etc) currently available (prescription or OTC) target one or more of the PUFA metabolites. Is this fact lost on most people?? Also, not sure how sugar can cause inflammation. Can you please explain the mechanism?
That does not mean eating copious amounts of SFA is wise either, as it tends to inhibit the oxidation of glucose even though much less so than PUFA. But in a world filled with PUFA, eating SFA may be the primary defense mechanism most people have if they are not willing to ingest drugs or supplements. SFA inhibit both 5-lipoxygenase (LOX) and cyclooxygenase (COX) enzymes and thus stop the inflammatory process much like aspirin and caffeine do. So, SFA is our primary food-derived defense against inflammation, and that inflammation can endogenously only come from PUFA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24359271
"...CONCLUSION: Both in-vitro and docking studies demonstrated Vcpal (ascorbyl palmitate) but not ascorbic acid as a non-competitive inhibitor of 5-LOX- and sLOX-induced lipid peroxidation, suggesting a key role for lipophilic nature in bringing about inhibition."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9397995
"...The most severe inflammation and fibrosis were detected in groups 1 and 5, as were the highest levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, and mRNA for Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. After ethanol was discontinued, there was minimal histological improvement in group 2 but near normalization of the histology, including regression of fibrosis, in groups 3 and 4. Histological improvement was associated with decreased levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, and reduced expression of Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. The data indicate that a diet enriched in saturated fatty acids (groups 3 and 4) effectively reverses alcohol-induced liver injury, including fibrosis. The therapeutic effects of saturated fatty acids may be explained, at least in part, by reduced endotoxemia and lipid peroxidation, which in turn result in decreased levels of TNF-alpha and Cox-2."

True, my anecdotal evidence doesn't prove that SFA causes CVD but it doesn't implicate PUFA as the cause either. That was what the original post was about. These friends of mine consume beef tallow, ice cream, butter, and coconut oil; no PUFA and have CVD. So true, it doesn't mean that SFA cause CVD but you can't really vilify PUFA in this case can you? I said I think it's the combination of fat and sugar causing the issue.

The mechanism through which SFA cause inflammation is endotoxin and thyroid suppression. Fat suppresses the thyroid. Peat has mentioned this many times. Fat is antimicrobial = bacterial die-off = endotoxin. Sugar causes inflammation by suppressing thyroid and lowering cortisol. There are many studies showing coconut oil increases endotoxin, I'm sure you can find them.

"In a world filled with PUFA are only defense is SFA" that's only if we choose to eat PUFA. You could just avoid both! As far as the liver is concerned you could get those same effects you posted about SFA healing injury by just eating a low fat diet in general.

Sometimes Haidut, instead of relying on studies; anecdotal and observational evidence can be much more valuble. You talk about PUFA and inflammation and the benefits of NSAIDS for dealing with PUFA; then how can you explain most of the people on this site who are avoiding PUFA like the plague, yet still have inflammation and are having to take NSAIDS? If a group of people are completely avoiding PUFA, eating SFA or low fat, consuming sugar, and still have to take NSAIDS; I don't know what you would say is the cause of their inflammation/health issues but it isn't PUFA!

 

[haidut]

post 107608

post 107600

post 107596 The first thought I had reading this study was that it's probably funded by the dairy industry. Then you can find another study saying PUFA decreases CVD and SFA increases; which is likely put out by the seed oil industry. So then what's the truth? I think all the talk about praising one fat and demonizing the other is beside the point. People are over consuming fat, whether it be peanut butter or ice cream, it doesn't really matter. Too much fat will cause inflammation. Then you add sugar to this, sugar combined with fat of any type is going to cause arterial damage.

The PUFA/SFA ratio doesn't really matter. PUFA causes the damage you speak of and SFA has to heal and repair that damage in the arteries by clogging them. So I guess the message would be to just eat saturated fat and no PUFA, but it's not that easy because sugar in the presence of a high fat diet can also cause arteriosclerosis and increase the risk of CVD even if no to very low PUFA is consumed. This is evidenced by some of my friends who eat no PUFA oils or fats and tons of ice cream and have CVD! So then is it the sugar or the saturated fat causing their problems? Well knowing that most diets that have been used to heal heart disease successfully emphasized low to no fat and very high carb (sometimes up to a pound of sugar a day) this leads me to believe that all fat causes CVD/arteriosclerosis!

Just because some of the people you know eat high SFA and still have CVD does not mean SFA causes CVD. They could very well be eating high SFA as a form of self-medication to lower their already high inflammation. Again, SFA has no known mechanism through which it can increase inflammation. PUFA does, and all anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID, steroids, etc) currently available (prescription or OTC) target one or more of the PUFA metabolites. Is this fact lost on most people?? Also, not sure how sugar can cause inflammation. Can you please explain the mechanism?
That does not mean eating copious amounts of SFA is wise either, as it tends to inhibit the oxidation of glucose even though much less so than PUFA. But in a world filled with PUFA, eating SFA may be the primary defense mechanism most people have if they are not willing to ingest drugs or supplements. SFA inhibit both 5-lipoxygenase (LOX) and cyclooxygenase (COX) enzymes and thus stop the inflammatory process much like aspirin and caffeine do. So, SFA is our primary food-derived defense against inflammation, and that inflammation can endogenously only come from PUFA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24359271
"...CONCLUSION: Both in-vitro and docking studies demonstrated Vcpal (ascorbyl palmitate) but not ascorbic acid as a non-competitive inhibitor of 5-LOX- and sLOX-induced lipid peroxidation, suggesting a key role for lipophilic nature in bringing about inhibition."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9397995
"...The most severe inflammation and fibrosis were detected in groups 1 and 5, as were the highest levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, and mRNA for Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. After ethanol was discontinued, there was minimal histological improvement in group 2 but near normalization of the histology, including regression of fibrosis, in groups 3 and 4. Histological improvement was associated with decreased levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, and reduced expression of Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. The data indicate that a diet enriched in saturated fatty acids (groups 3 and 4) effectively reverses alcohol-induced liver injury, including fibrosis. The therapeutic effects of saturated fatty acids may be explained, at least in part, by reduced endotoxemia and lipid peroxidation, which in turn result in decreased levels of TNF-alpha and Cox-2."

True, my anecdotal evidence doesn't prove that SFA causes CVD but it doesn't implicate PUFA as the cause either. That was what the original post was about. These friends of mine consume beef tallow, ice cream, butter, and coconut oil; no PUFA and have CVD. So true, it doesn't mean that SFA cause CVD but you can't really vilify PUFA in this case can you? I said I think it's the combination of fat and sugar causing the issue.

The mechanism through which SFA cause inflammation is endotoxin and thyroid suppression. Fat suppresses the thyroid. Peat has mentioned this many times. Fat is antimicrobial = bacterial die-off = endotoxin. Sugar causes inflammation by suppressing thyroid and lowering cortisol. There are many studies showing coconut oil increases endotoxin, I'm sure you can find them.

"In a world filled with PUFA are only defense is SFA" that's only if we choose to eat PUFA. You could just avoid both! As far as the liver is concerned you could get those same effects you posted about SFA healing injury by just eating a low fat diet in general.

Sometimes Haidut, instead of relying on studies; anecdotal and observational evidence can be much more valuble. You talk about PUFA and inflammation and the benefits of NSAIDS for dealing with PUFA; then how can you explain most of the people on this site who are avoiding PUFA like the plague, yet still have inflammation and are having to take NSAIDS? If a group of people are completely avoiding PUFA, eating SFA or low fat, consuming sugar, and still have to take NSAIDS; I don't know what you would say is the cause of their inflammation/health issues but it isn't PUFA!

SFA actually helps with thyroid update in the cell. Coconut oil can completely abolish the endotoxin response.
viewtopic.php?t=4600
As I said before, I am not suggesting people drown themselves in saturated fat but if you eat fat you will probably ingest some PUFA and in the absence of supplements like vitamin E, aspirin, taurine, etc SFA may be the main defense mechanism for most people. So yes, keeping fat below 20% of calories is important even if it is saturated fat, but if you have to ingest a high fat diet it better be SFA.

Finally, the people on the forum who cut down on their PUFA intake and did blood tests all reported fall in things like CRP and ESR. The majority of them do not take any anti-inflammatory drugs so the fall is probably due to the lower PUFA stores. The people that still have high inflammation probably have a lot of stored PUFA that gets metabolized into various inflammatory mediators. Just look at the currently known mediators, they are all either PUFA metabolites or increased by PUFA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflammat ... _mediators
Saturated fat tends to inhibit things like histamine, IL family, NO and TNF-a. PUFA promotes all of them.
I don't think we have an argument here, as I agree that high fat diet is suppressive of metabolism. I posted a thread some time ago showing high fat diet increased serotonin synthesis regardless of the type of fat ingested. By that criteria, all high fat diets would be more thyroid suppressive than sugar/protein diet, but the saturated fat should at least lower inflammation as opposed to PUFA.

 

[Derek]

post 107651

post 107608

post 107600

post 107596 The first thought I had reading this study was that it's probably funded by the dairy industry. Then you can find another study saying PUFA decreases CVD and SFA increases; which is likely put out by the seed oil industry. So then what's the truth? I think all the talk about praising one fat and demonizing the other is beside the point. People are over consuming fat, whether it be peanut butter or ice cream, it doesn't really matter. Too much fat will cause inflammation. Then you add sugar to this, sugar combined with fat of any type is going to cause arterial damage.

The PUFA/SFA ratio doesn't really matter. PUFA causes the damage you speak of and SFA has to heal and repair that damage in the arteries by clogging them. So I guess the message would be to just eat saturated fat and no PUFA, but it's not that easy because sugar in the presence of a high fat diet can also cause arteriosclerosis and increase the risk of CVD even if no to very low PUFA is consumed. This is evidenced by some of my friends who eat no PUFA oils or fats and tons of ice cream and have CVD! So then is it the sugar or the saturated fat causing their problems? Well knowing that most diets that have been used to heal heart disease successfully emphasized low to no fat and very high carb (sometimes up to a pound of sugar a day) this leads me to believe that all fat causes CVD/arteriosclerosis!

Just because some of the people you know eat high SFA and still have CVD does not mean SFA causes CVD. They could very well be eating high SFA as a form of self-medication to lower their already high inflammation. Again, SFA has no known mechanism through which it can increase inflammation. PUFA does, and all anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAID, steroids, etc) currently available (prescription or OTC) target one or more of the PUFA metabolites. Is this fact lost on most people?? Also, not sure how sugar can cause inflammation. Can you please explain the mechanism?
That does not mean eating copious amounts of SFA is wise either, as it tends to inhibit the oxidation of glucose even though much less so than PUFA. But in a world filled with PUFA, eating SFA may be the primary defense mechanism most people have if they are not willing to ingest drugs or supplements. SFA inhibit both 5-lipoxygenase (LOX) and cyclooxygenase (COX) enzymes and thus stop the inflammatory process much like aspirin and caffeine do. So, SFA is our primary food-derived defense against inflammation, and that inflammation can endogenously only come from PUFA.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24359271
"...CONCLUSION: Both in-vitro and docking studies demonstrated Vcpal (ascorbyl palmitate) but not ascorbic acid as a non-competitive inhibitor of 5-LOX- and sLOX-induced lipid peroxidation, suggesting a key role for lipophilic nature in bringing about inhibition."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9397995
"...The most severe inflammation and fibrosis were detected in groups 1 and 5, as were the highest levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, and mRNA for Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. After ethanol was discontinued, there was minimal histological improvement in group 2 but near normalization of the histology, including regression of fibrosis, in groups 3 and 4. Histological improvement was associated with decreased levels of endotoxin, lipid peroxidation, and reduced expression of Cox-2 and TNF-alpha. The data indicate that a diet enriched in saturated fatty acids (groups 3 and 4) effectively reverses alcohol-induced liver injury, including fibrosis. The therapeutic effects of saturated fatty acids may be explained, at least in part, by reduced endotoxemia and lipid peroxidation, which in turn result in decreased levels of TNF-alpha and Cox-2."

True, my anecdotal evidence doesn't prove that SFA causes CVD but it doesn't implicate PUFA as the cause either. That was what the original post was about. These friends of mine consume beef tallow, ice cream, butter, and coconut oil; no PUFA and have CVD. So true, it doesn't mean that SFA cause CVD but you can't really vilify PUFA in this case can you? I said I think it's the combination of fat and sugar causing the issue.

The mechanism through which SFA cause inflammation is endotoxin and thyroid suppression. Fat suppresses the thyroid. Peat has mentioned this many times. Fat is antimicrobial = bacterial die-off = endotoxin. Sugar causes inflammation by suppressing thyroid and lowering cortisol. There are many studies showing coconut oil increases endotoxin, I'm sure you can find them.

"In a world filled with PUFA are only defense is SFA" that's only if we choose to eat PUFA. You could just avoid both! As far as the liver is concerned you could get those same effects you posted about SFA healing injury by just eating a low fat diet in general.

Sometimes Haidut, instead of relying on studies; anecdotal and observational evidence can be much more valuble. You talk about PUFA and inflammation and the benefits of NSAIDS for dealing with PUFA; then how can you explain most of the people on this site who are avoiding PUFA like the plague, yet still have inflammation and are having to take NSAIDS? If a group of people are completely avoiding PUFA, eating SFA or low fat, consuming sugar, and still have to take NSAIDS; I don't know what you would say is the cause of their inflammation/health issues but it isn't PUFA!

SFA actually helps with thyroid update in the cell. Coconut oil can completely abolish the endotoxin response.
viewtopic.php?t=4600
As I said before, I am not suggesting people drown themselves in saturated fat but if you eat fat you will probably ingest some PUFA and in the absence of supplements like vitamin E, aspirin, taurine, etc SFA may be the main defense mechanism for most people. So yes, keeping fat below 20% of calories is important even if it is saturated fat, but if you have to ingest a high fat diet it better be SFA.

Finally, the people on the forum who cut down on their PUFA intake and did blood tests all reported fall in things like CRP and ESR. The majority of them do not take any anti-inflammatory drugs so the fall is probably due to the lower PUFA stores. The people that still have high inflammation probably have a lot of stored PUFA that gets metabolized into various inflammatory mediators. Just look at the currently known mediators, they are all either PUFA metabolites or increased by PUFA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflammat ... _mediators
Saturated fat tends to inhibit things like histamine, IL family, NO and TNF-a. PUFA promotes all of them.
I don't think we have an argument here, as I agree that high fat diet is suppressive of metabolism. I posted a thread some time ago showing high fat diet increased serotonin synthesis regardless of the type of fat ingested. By that criteria, all high fat diets would be more thyroid suppressive than sugar/protein diet, but the saturated fat should at least lower inflammation as opposed to PUFA.

I agree with most of what you say, I certainly wasn't defending or recommending anyone eat PUFA, I was just opposing the idea that the consumption of SFA was beneficial; especially for cardiovascular health. I am also not very high on coconut oil. It's a free oil. Usually contaminated with mold toxins. And it seems most people are far more intolerant of coconut oil than other free oils. My diet is High Carb/Protein and low fat and that seems to work well for me and others I recommend it to.

 

[jaa]

Derek,

what kind of friends do you have? I don't know anyone who avoids PUFA yes still eats a decent amount of saturated fat. That seems like it would be strictly people who adhere to a Ray Peat diet, which is like what? <0.01% of the population? And even most of the people on this forum seem to have only picked up Peat eating in the last 5 years or so tops and are coming from diets higher in PUFA. And if they have CVD I'm guessing they're fairly old? I guess what I'm saying is I suspect the people you know who have CVD, who eat high sat fat and low PUFA, have likely only been eating that way very recently and that represents a very small % of their life. Unless you have some very unique friends.

 

[Derek]

post 107661 Derek,

what kind of friends do you have? I don't know anyone who avoids PUFA yes still eats a decent amount of saturated fat. That seems like it would be strictly people who adhere to a Ray Peat diet, which is like what? <0.01% of the population? And even most of the people on this forum seem to have only picked up Peat eating in the last 5 years or so tops and are coming from diets higher in PUFA. And if they have CVD I'm guessing they're fairly old? I guess what I'm saying is I suspect the people you know who have CVD, who eat high sat fat and low PUFA, have likely only been eating that way very recently and that represents a very small % of their life. Unless you have some very unique friends.

I said some of my friends. They are mostly health conscious guys and into the Paleo movement; but they believe PUFA's are bad. So they mostly eat beef tallow, butter, coconut oil, etc... Yes my typical friends just eat SAD. The Paleo ones who eat high SFA and low PUFA are in their late 20's early 30's! And they have CVD from all the SFA they eat.

 

[jaa]

That's pretty crazy! I suspect you might be radioactive.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Derek,

How do you know your friends actually have CVD? They seem really young. What are they doing to reverse it? Can you elaborate more?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

post 107661 Derek,

I don't know anyone who avoids PUFA yes still eats a decent amount of saturated fat. That seems like it would be strictly people who adhere to a Ray Peat diet, which is like what? <0.01% of the population?

The paleo/crossfit people are really into no vegetable oil but consume tons of butter such as Bulletproof coffee with butter and high fatty cuts of meat at every meal. Weston Price people, Sally Fallon's book "Eat Fat, Lose Fat." And Weston Price folk recommend a lot of SAFA.

The odd thing about Bulletproof coffee and Dave Asprey, is that he takes Metformin to lower his blood sugar. He's now a type two diabetic.

 

[Derek]

post 107684 Derek,

How do you know your friends actually have CVD? They seem really young. What are they doing to reverse it? Can you elaborate more?

Their cardiologists diagnosed after they were having chest pain and other vague symptoms, one of the guys actually had a heart attack. He was eating super high SFA no PUFA, and vigorous exercise. Most of them were put on low fat, high carb diets by the doctors in order to reverse it.

 

[michael94]

post 107688

post 107684 Derek,

How do you know your friends actually have CVD? They seem really young. What are they doing to reverse it? Can you elaborate more?

Their cardiologists diagnosed after they were having chest pain and other vague symptoms, one of the guys actually had a heart attack. He was eating super high SFA no PUFA, and vigorous exercise. Most of them were put on low fat, high carb diets by the doctors in order to reverse it.

Do you know how their bloodwork was? Any specific red flags or was it all messed up?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Most of them were put on low fat, high carb diets by the doctors in order to reverse it.

That's sounds a little odd. Doctor's don't know anything about nutrition and even if they did they wouldn't say "eat high carb" because most peoples definition of "carbs" are cookies, cakes, ice cream, and pizza which are all actually high fat foods. Unless they were a "plant-based" doctor or influenced by Caldwell Esselstyn, the "prevent and reverse heart disease" doctor. What country do your friends with CVD live in?

 

[Derek]

post 107690

Most of them were put on low fat, high carb diets by the doctors in order to reverse it.

That's sounds a little odd. Doctor's don't know anything about nutrition and even if they did they wouldn't say "eat high carb" because most peoples definition of "carbs" are cookies, cakes, ice cream, and pizza which are all actually high fat foods. Unless they were a "plant-based" doctor or influenced by Caldwell Esselstyn, the "prevent and reverse heart disease" doctor. What country do your friends with CVD live in?

They live in US. The Doctors I believe were naturopathic cardiologists. I was under the impression most cardiologists recommended low fat diets to heart disease patients? Although, I haven't been to a Dr in so long I couldn't really pretend to be up to date on what they do or don't recommend. I was just giving an example of a couple of my friends.

 

[sladerunner69]

post 107567

post 107565

post 107561

post 107553

post 107543

post 107502

post 58581

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_risk

So, since the relative risks for saturated and trans fat were > 1, and for PUFA was < 1, does that mean that my original comment about PUFA increasing CVD risk was right?

According to Wikipedia, for example the "saturated fat" eater group would be 0.03 times more likely to get coronary disease than the "control" for the observational case. The actual conclusion of the review is that there is no support for eating less saturated fat I guess since the numbers are insignificant. Of course this is all "when the top and bottom thirds of baseline dietary fatty acid intake were compared". In the "randomized, controlled trials" you see confidence intervals such as "0.69 to 1.36" which prompts a polite "There was heterogeneity of the associations among individual circulating fatty acids and coronary disease."

Then where did the news media get the idea that the study shows eating trans fats lowers CVD risk? Do you see anything in there that suggests that?

I don't see anything about trans fat, although he says "were unable to find convincing evidence that eating saturated fats leads to greater risk of heart disease." Judging by "After years of [...] telling others, that saturated fat clogs your arteries and makes you fat" I'd say the author is the kind of person who "goes with the tide" so to speak. He may or may not have read only the abstract (which is me ) since he mentions margaric acid.

Form the BBC article:
"...In fact, when they looked at blood results, they found that higher levels of some saturated fats, in particular a type of saturated fat you get in milk and dairy products called margaric acid, were associated with a lower risk of heart disease."

I guess they did not say it is trans fat, it is a type of saturated fat actually.

If true then something needs explaining, and that's the fact that in autopsies of patients with CVD the arteriosclerosis (clogging arteries) is comprised of cholesterol, saturated fat, and calcium. Saturated fat is well known and researched as the culprit for clogged arteries as it builds up over the years.

Personally I theorize that the build up of arterial plaque is the result of a combination of high PUFA high SFA consumption. Peat explains in an article that plaque build up can be cleared out if the metabolism is strong, but if high PUFA is shortchanging your metabolism AND you are consuming high amounts of SFA and cholesterol(which is likely to go underutilized by the endocrine system in this context) then it is a recipe for heart disease!

Cholesterol and saturated fat are rushed to the site of endothelial damage to repair it. It's the chronic vessel inflammation that triggers these repair processes and if continues for too long they can be come pathological, just like cell division and cancer. However, I have not seen reference on plaque being mostly saturated fat. Can you provide some references on that?

Just check out the arteriosclerosis wiki, there are some sources there claiming that plaque is comprised of saturated fats, cholestrol and calcium.

So if SFA and cholestrol is repairing endothelial inflammation brought on by PUFA, then what you are saying is too much of this inflamation will cause too much SFA/chol to build up around the lining of the arteries and thus causing the blockage? How does SFA help repair blood vessels exactly..?

Saturated fat blocks the local production of some inflammatory mediators like prostaglandins and some thromboxanes. Cholesterol does the same. I think medicine already openly admits that cholesterol is there as a repair attempt, not as a villain. It will take some time for them to see that saturated fat is also protective and not just "inert" or even harmful.

In summary, saturated fat is the direct cause of the blockage. Is it not then harmful?

Would you rather have a ruptured/leaking blood vessel that can be deadly if it's in the brain or part of a major pathway like the femoral artery? Or one that is producing so much NO as a result of the local inflammation that a tumor starts to form due to the hypoxia? The body does what it can to protect itself form the inflammation caused by PUFA metabolites. No PUFA, means no inflammation and no need for cholesterol and SFA to go there and try to repair damage. So, if the SFA/PUFA ratio is high enough there will be no need to repair anything.
What do you propose as an alternative?

I propose no alternative. I only asked that to get this explanation which, I must add, was both thorough and straightfoward. Very enlightening, thanks

 

[jaa]

post 107685

post 107661 Derek,

I don't know anyone who avoids PUFA yes still eats a decent amount of saturated fat. That seems like it would be strictly people who adhere to a Ray Peat diet, which is like what? <0.01% of the population?

The paleo/crossfit people are really into no vegetable oil but consume tons of butter such as Bulletproof coffee with butter and high fatty cuts of meat at every meal. Weston Price people, Sally Fallon's book "Eat Fat, Lose Fat." And Weston Price folk recommend a lot of SAFA.

I meant to include the ice cream thing as well since most of the paleo crowd is pretty anti-sugar.

The odd thing about Bulletproof coffee and Dave Asprey, is that he takes Metformin to lower his blood sugar. He's now a type two diabetic.

Unless he's lying about that too

 

[paymanz]

post 107575

post 107571 I know Ray claims that the radicals generated in a high but efficient metabolic state aren't so harmful, but if short and medium-chain SaFA don't interfere with the use of glucose, wouldn't that create a lot of oxidative stress after a meal, especially nowadays that it's easier to eat a lot of food?

Typically, in the absense of high PUFA diet you'd have enough and taurine to block all such possible damage. PUFA depletes these like nothing else you ingest.

what is endogenous vitamin E?

 

[haidut]

post 107756

post 107575

post 107571 I know Ray claims that the radicals generated in a high but efficient metabolic state aren't so harmful, but if short and medium-chain SaFA don't interfere with the use of glucose, wouldn't that create a lot of oxidative stress after a meal, especially nowadays that it's easier to eat a lot of food?

Typically, in the absense of high PUFA diet you'd have enough and taurine to block all such possible damage. PUFA depletes these like nothing else you ingest.

what is endogenous vitamin E?

The one stored in your liver and derived from your regular diet in the absense of direct supplementation. If you don't ingest PUFA, you will likely have high vitamin E stores as it will not be consumed trying to detox the various PUFA metabolites or trying to saturate the PUFA directly.

 

[Such_Saturation]

post 107688

post 107684 Derek,

How do you know your friends actually have CVD? They seem really young. What are they doing to reverse it? Can you elaborate more?

Their cardiologists diagnosed after they were having chest pain and other vague symptoms, one of the guys actually had a heart attack. He was eating super high SFA no PUFA, and vigorous exercise. Most of them were put on low fat, high carb diets by the doctors in order to reverse it.

That does already seem abnormal that they can just reverse atherosclerosis that easily. Is low PUFA atherosclerosis non-permanent damage?

Anyway, realize that the amount of PUFA in ice-cream is plenty to cause inflammation. I'm not talking hormone levels (nanograms) when it comes to PUFA (or perhaps we should if we hadn't got all these protection mechanisms from it) but definitely milligrams or less that get hidden in every dark corner, and that stuff is turned into mediators which probably take the treshold down another few orders of magnitude. You can also think about how much of the fat and cholesterol they were ingesting was actually oxidized, and just because saturated fat is stable in the body does not mean it can survive energy levels encountered outside of it.

 

[sladerunner69]

post 107688

post 107684 Derek,

How do you know your friends actually have CVD? They seem really young. What are they doing to reverse it? Can you elaborate more?

Their cardiologists diagnosed after they were having chest pain and other vague symptoms, one of the guys actually had a heart attack. He was eating super high SFA no PUFA, and vigorous exercise. Most of them were put on low fat, high carb diets by the doctors in order to reverse it.

Yes I've heard of similar stories. Could perhaps elaborate on this guys "super high SFA" diet??

I find it hard to beleive one could inhale twelve pounds of lard each day and not suffer cvd