Progesterone source in europe?

[TruffleGnocchi]

Anyone know how to get or sells progesterone, within Europe? No international because of customs.
Or ways to get progesterone from pharmacy?
I heard Bulgaria sells OTC but I'm not going to Bulgaria. Maybe other countries in western Europe sell OTC or give easy prescription progesterone?

 

[Androsclerosis]

There is progesterone cream by biovea which I can easily find in my country Romania. I don't know if they ship to other countries. If not, then search the brand on Google.

Biovea Crema Progesteron natural (2oz) 59ml - eMAG.ro

Cumpara Biovea Crema Progesteron natural (2oz) 59ml de la eMAG! Ai libertatea sa platesti in rate, beneficiezi de promotiile zilei, deschiderea coletului la livrare, easybox, retur gratuit in 30 de zile si Instant Money Back.

www.emag.ro

 

[Androsclerosis]

PROGESTERONE CREAM (2oz) 59ml by BIOVEA - BIOVEA EUROPE

www.biovea.com

 

[TruffleGnocchi]

PROGESTERONE CREAM (2oz) 59ml by BIOVEA - BIOVEA EUROPE

www.biovea.com

Thanks! Sorry I forgot to specify I'm looking for oral tablets. If I don't find any oral form I will buy the cream maybe.

Never mind.. now that I read this Pharmacokinetics of progesterone - Wikipedia
It seems oral progesterone bioavailability is low even with micronized + fat suspended progesterone, and most of it 90% gets converted to neurosteroid metabolites because of liver metabolism, compared to intramuscular injection or vaginal administration.
But also transdermal does not seem like a good way to deliver it. This article says to achieve physiological levels with the 1% creams, you would need to apply the cream to 50% of the body's surface. The blood circulation progesterone result is negligible but saliva and capillary blood content supraphysiological?? Then mentions alcohol preparations might be effective according to a single study.

Now I have to rethink.
Maybe the only reliable way to achieve systemic circulation of progesterone and at physiological quantity is IM injection or vaginal.
Can the dermal creams be applied in vagina?

One reason I was put off by the 1% cream products was the amount of questionable ingredients in them. Probably if it was formulation like Ray Peat had it Progesterone in Vitamin E, it could be applied vaginally, or sublingual as this article says is also effective for systemic circulation

Also says Pregnenolone oral administration mainly gets metabolised into neurosteroids by the liver. I didnt know this before.

 

[TruffleGnocchi]

It does have alcohol in it, might be effective.
Off topic: I wonder if the reason some women treat their menopause symptoms successfully with progesterone only and some dont, is because of difference in how the product is made or the route of administration. The wiki page also says that dermal absorption also depends on what part of body it is applied to.

 

[baron]

Progest-e has gotten through customs fine for me by labeling it as a supplement.

 

[Peatress]

It depends on where you are in Europe.

Progest E is probably your best bet. I’m biased as I used it, topically, to heal a wound that should have disfigured me with zero scarring. The oral absorption of Progest E is excellent.

Some Ray Peat quotes on absorption

When dissolved in vitamin E, progesterone begins entering the blood stream almost as soon as it contacts any membrane, such as the lips, tongue, gums, or palate, but when it is swallowed, it continues to be absorbed as part of the digestive process. When taken with food, its absorption occurs at the same rate as the digestion and absorption of the food. Ray Peat

If progesterone is taken dissolved in vitamin E, it is absorbed very efficiently, and distributed quickly to all of the tissues. If a woman has ovaries, progesterone helps them to produce both progesterone and estrogen as needed, and also helps to restore normal functioning of the thyroid and other glands. If her ovaries have been removed, progesterone should be taken consistently to replace the lost supply. A progesterone deficiency has often been associated with increased susceptibility to cancer, and progesterone has been used to treat some types of cancer. Ray Peat

Progesterone stimulates the ovaries and adrenals to produce progesterone, and it also activates the thyroid. It shouldn’t be necessary to use progesterone indefinitely unless the ovaries have been removed. In slender post-menopausal women, 10 mg per day is usually enough to prevent progesterone deficiency.

In a 10% solution of progesterone in vitamin E, one drop contains about three milligrams of progesterone. Normally the body produces 10 to 20 milligrams per day. A dose of 3 or 4 drops usually brings the blood levels up to normal range, but this dose can be repeated throughout the day to control symptoms.

For general purposes, it is most economical and effective to take progesterone dissolved in vitamin E orally, for example taking a few drops on the lips and tongue, or rubbing it into the gums. (It is good for the general health of the gums, too.) These membranes are very thin and hence the progesterone can easily and quickly enter the blood. when swallowed, the vitamin E allows it to be absorbed through the walls of the stomach and intestine.

As was mentioned previously, topical application of this oil aids sun damaged skin. For topical treatment of arthritis, osteoporosis, tendinitis, bursitis, or varicose veins, to speed absorption it is best to apply a few drops of olive oil to the area, and then to rub the progesterone -vitamin E solution into and around the affected area.” Ray Peat

 

[António Marceli]

Netherlands

progesterone

Haal het maximale uit je leven met natuurlijke vitamines, supplementen en persoonlijke verzorging. Meer dan 21 winkels ✓ Gratis bezorging v.a. €25 ✓ Gratis deskundig advies ✓ +325.000 tevreden klanten per jaar ✓

www.vitaminstore.nl

France

Progestogel gel progesterone @ Pharma GDD 🛒

Progestogel est un gel dosé à 1% de progestérone, vendu sans ordonnance sur Pharma GDD ⚡ Livraison en 24h en France ➤ A appliquer sur la poitrine pour soulager les douleurs mammaires en cas de mastodynie ou de mastopathie bégnine.

www.pharma-gdd.com

 

[Happycat]

Utrogestan oral capsules, you can find them OTC in Spain, Greece and possibly other countries.
It has some rubbish ingredients, ( sunflower oil, titanium dioxide) but it's not completely useless.

 

[TruffleGnocchi]

Progest-e has gotten through customs fine for me by labeling it as a supplement.

In my country the customs are tyrannical, nonsensical laws that dont serve anybody. I've ordered from science.bio once, didnt know how to label it, so I put dietary supplement it went through no problem.
Then I ordered Phenibut from liftmode, also labeled it as dietary supplement, got seized, got a letter warning me I did a minor offence or I dont know the right word. I was upset about that, I contacted the customs why they did that, they said they are following rules from health institution of my country, something like a mini FDA but more general. I called them said why they said to the customs it was a drug when it is clearly sold as dietary supplement in the US. They said because it contained dosage information on the package (the science.bio products did not) and phenibut is listed as compound with medicinal properties. So basically anything that is listed as a thing with potential medicinal properties, and has dosage information will be considered medicine, or if it is a pharma product also. To my surprise the lady from the health institute said if I find it in a EU country I might be able to buy it because it it didnt go through customs. It is not illegal to possess but only engage in selling, distributing activities, including import and export. Like they know how stupid their own rules are but they enforce them anyway. Maybe it is just classification by them but law is from some other government part. The Science.bio products also had "for research only" on the package, might have helped.

Some months later I ordered peptides from swisschems.is. I looked up the exact number on the EU website for the compound, I labeled it as some kind of ingredient or industrial chemical I cant remember, it was the correct classification no lies, and it was not under pharma or medicine products or foods.
Long story short I asked customs for my package they said they contacted police on suspicion it contained drugs or medicine. Got another letter I am a suspect for "distribution of illegal substances or substances banned in sport". I was upset again. I called them and asked why am I being labelled a criminal for buying material for non-commercial use that is not labelled as an illicit drug, pharmaceutical product, medicinal product, not for human consumption. Also that I never played any sport and dont even know anyone who does, only because WADA labeled it as a dope. An organisation that serves sports games.. They said doesn't matter. The government was attempting to punish me for doing something, so that people who play sports games dont cheat... Insanity. Had to go to police station to give a statement about it. Later the court dismissed the charges.
I'm not going to waste time on this process again.

 

[TruffleGnocchi]

@António Marceli @Happycat
Thanks for the links!

Possibly the oral tablets could be used sublingual for systemic absorption and to bypass liver metabolism. The wikipedia article says sublingual micronised progesterone was effective but required 2-3 doses per day because of lower half-life.

@Peatress
Here the postal customs are bad.
I wonder if there is any research that shows Vitamin E enhances absorption of Progesterone. I know that RP was researching progesterone himself, I still question this because on the wikipedia article on this:

Knowledge about the pharmacokinetics of oral progesterone has been complicated by the use of flawed analytical techniques.[43][44][45] Most previous studies have used a method known as immunoassay (IA) to measure progesterone levels.[43][44][45] However, IA without chromatographic separation (CS) has high cross-reactivity and is unable to differentiate between progesterone and metabolites such as allopregnanolone and pregnanolone.[43][44][45] As a result, studies that have assessed the pharmacokinetics of oral progesterone using IA have reported falsely high progesterone levels and inaccurate dependent pharmacokinetic parameters.[43][44][45]

Conversely, the same issues are not applicable to parenteral routes of progesterone such as vaginal administration and intramuscular injection, because these routes are not subject to a first pass and relatively low levels of progesterone metabolites are formed.

A study using LC–MS found that the bioavailability of oral progesterone was only 2.4% relative to vaginal progesterone gel. Moreover, this was not relative to the standard of progesterone by intramuscular injection, which has much higher bioavailability than vaginal progesterone.[48][4] The very low bioavailability of oral progesterone is due to the fact that it is poorly absorbed from the gastrointestinal tract and undergoes massive metabolism, resulting in almost complete inactivation during the first pass through the liver.[46][49]

Progesterone is a lipophilic compound and it has been theorized that suspension of progesterone in oil may improve its absorption by the lymphatic system, thereby allowing a portion of oral progesterone to bypass the first pass through the liver and hence enhancing its bioavailability.[46][54][55][56]
Compared to plain milled progesterone, peak levels of progesterone following a single 200 mg oral dose were increased 1.4-fold by micronization, 1.2-fold by suspension in oil, and 3.2-fold by the combination of micronization and suspension in oil.[56] Oral micronized progesterone suspended in oil is rapidly and almost completely absorbed from the intestines.[14] >>> "I think they mean progesterone in this form gets absorbed from intestines almost completely, but circulating levels are still very low"


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In one such study, although peak levels of progesterone were 2.2 ng/mL after a single 100 mg dose of oral progesterone, levels of progesterone remained significantly elevated for less than about 4 hours, and the average progesterone levels over a period of 24 hours were only 0.14 ng/mL.[45][1]

For comparison, normal progesterone levels during the luteal phase of the menstrual cycle with LC–MS/MS are 6.7 to 22.2 ng/mL.[59]

When oral progesterone is taken with food instead of fasted, peak and overall levels of progesterone are significantly higher.[8][12][7]
A study using LC-MS/MS found that when 100 mg oral progesterone was taken within 30 minutes of starting a high-fat meal, peak levels of progesterone were 2.6-fold higher and area-under-the-curve levels were 1.8-fold higher when compared to taking it in a fasted state.[8]

Although the bioavailability of oral progesterone is increased if it is taken with food, its overall bioavailability is still low, even if measured using IA.[18]
It has been suggested that the improvement in progesterone levels when oral progesterone is taken with food may be due to enhanced lymphatic absorption, allowing oral progesterone to partially bypass first-pass metabolism.[12][46][54][55]

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The elimination half-life of progesterone in the circulation is very short at a range of about 3 to 90 minutes.[14] Previous studies using IA have reported an overestimated elimination half-life of oral progesterone of about 16 to 18 hours.[41]
Subsequent, reliable studies using high-performance liquid chromatography–tandem mass spectrometry (HPLC–MS/MS) and similar methods reported elimination half-lives of progesterone with oral progesterone of about 4.6 to 5.2 hours and 9.98 hours when it was taken with food.[7][8]

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Progesterone is metabolized into allopregnanolone and pregnanolone, which are neurosteroids and potent potentiators of the GABAA receptor.[65][66]
The conversion of progesterone into these metabolites is catalyzed by the enzymes 5α- and 5β-reductase and 3α-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase, and occurs primarily in the liver, but also occurs in reproductive endocrine tissues, the skin, the brain, and other tissues.[67] Due to extensive first-pass metabolism with oral progesterone, about 80 to 90% or more of progesterone is rapidly transformed into these metabolites, and massive quantities of these neurosteroids are consequently formed and circulate throughout the body and brain.[68][69][70][71] It is for this reason that commonly reported side effects of oral progesterone include dizziness, drowsiness, sedation, somnolence, and fatigue.[65][66] Both oral and sufficiently high doses of intramuscular progesterone can produce these sedative effects.[72][73][74] However, compared to oral progesterone, the levels of these neurosteroids have been found to be very low with parenteral routes like vaginal and intramuscular progesterone.[64][75]

With oral administration of progesterone, allopregnanolone and pregnanolone circulate at higher concentrations than does progesterone.[17][64] These neurosteroid metabolites of progesterone have relatively short biological half-lives in the circulation.[76][77] Because of this, there are dramatic and highly supraphysiological spikes in allopregnanolone and pregnanolone concentrations followed by steep declines with each oral intake of progesterone.[69][70][64] As such, neurosteroid levels fluctuate substantially (e.g., 15-fold in the case of allopregnanolone) and in an unphysiological manner with oral progesterone therapy.

If RP is right and Vitamin E makes it absorb into the circulation even via skin, and bypasses the liver then it looks like one of the best form as you say.
It would be great if I could get a pure powder form and make different preparations of it and see the different effects.

 

[wzuo]

I can help you with ordering progesterone from forefronthealth and send to your country. I'm from PL and it comes without any problems and is listed as supplement on label, no dosages (only on bottle)

 

[TruffleGnocchi]

I can help you with ordering progesterone from forefronthealth and send to your country. I'm from PL and it comes without any problems and is listed as supplement on label, no dosages (only on bottle)

Thank you very much I appreciate it, but I'm ok I will figure something out. Now I intend to go someplace less hot soon because it is too hot + humid here.
What a great looking website and products

 

[Peatress]

@António Marceli @Happycat
Thanks for the links!

Possibly the oral tablets could be used sublingual for systemic absorption and to bypass liver metabolism. The wikipedia article says sublingual micronised progesterone was effective but required 2-3 doses per day because of lower half-life.

@Peatress
Here the postal customs are bad.
I wonder if there is any research that shows Vitamin E enhances absorption of Progesterone. I know that RP was researching progesterone himself, I still question this because on the wikipedia article on this:

If RP is right and Vitamin E makes it absorb into the circulation even via skin, and bypasses the liver then it looks like one of the best form as you say.
It would be great if I could get a pure powder form and make different preparations of it and see the different effects.

I read the first paper referenced. This is a 2005 paper. It’s probable that Ray would have been following the latest research on progesterone with interest yet he didn’t change his mind about absorption of progest E. You ask, “I wonder if there is any research that shows Vitamin E enhances absorption of Progesterone.” Dr Peat did this research hence his patent Progest E.

When used orally the liver can deactivate the progesterone if it’s is not cycled, this is why Dr. Peat recommends cycling the dosing.

As for progesterone injection Dr. Peat doesn’t talk favourably about this.

Personally I don’t trust pharma funded research on progesterone.

I found these interviews helpful:

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

My own experience of Progest E is that it is very potent even in small doses topically and orally. I notice systemic effects, such as improved sleep, with a few drops. I think experimenting with Progest E, presuming you can get access to it, would be the best way to determine its effectiveness.

 

[TruffleGnocchi]

I read the first paper referenced. This is a 2005 paper. It’s probable that Ray would have been following the latest research on progesterone with interest yet he didn’t change his mind about absorption of progest E. You ask, “I wonder if there is any research that shows Vitamin E enhances absorption of Progesterone.” Dr Peat did this research hence his patent Progest E.

When used orally the liver can deactivate the progesterone if it’s is not cycled, this is why Dr. Peat recommends cycling the dosing.

As for progesterone injection Dr. Peat doesn’t talk favourably about this.

Personally I don’t trust pharma funded research on progesterone.

I found these interviews helpful:

• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 1
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 2
• Politics & Science: Progesterone Part 3

My own experience of Progest E is that it is very potent even in small doses topically and orally. I notice systemic effects, such as improved sleep, with a few drops. I think experimenting with Progest E, presuming you can get access to it, would be the best way to determine its effectiveness.

Have you or anyone else tested serum levels of progesterone after taking Progest E or any other product? That would be great.

I know Dr Peat did research, he said it in his talks. But I haven't seen literature. I don't think you need to prove effectiveness to patent something?

There are reasons to not trust pharma funded studies, or to speculate any study that does not explicitly state pharma funding is still pharma funded or influenced. But you have to base it on something other than wishing it works, best would be to test your serum levels I think. Or if those tests are inaccurate some other test. There must be a way to test if it gets absorbed or not.
Either way good to take it if it solves your problems and no side effects.

 

[Peatress]

Have you or anyone else tested serum levels of progesterone after taking Progest E or any other product? That would be great.

I know Dr Peat did research, he said it in his talks. But I haven't seen literature. I don't think you need to prove effectiveness to patent something?

There are reasons to not trust pharma funded studies, or to speculate any study that does not explicitly state pharma funding is still pharma funded or influenced. But you have to base it on something other than wishing it works, best would be to test your serum levels I think. Or if those tests are inaccurate some other test. There must be a way to test if it gets absorbed or not.
Either way good to take it if it solves your problems and no side effects.

Understood. You are here to debunk Ray Peat.

 

[TruffleGnocchi]

Understood. You are here to debunk Ray Peat.

I would love to debunk him with proof, then it is 1 theory less towards truth

 

[Peatress]

I would love to debunk him with proof, then it is 1 theory less towards truth

This is quite an ambition.

Truth? You will need more than Wikipedia for that.

 

[TruffleGnocchi]

This is quite an ambition.

Truth? You will need more than Wikipedia for that.

Ouch!
No doubt. But it surprises me how good some wikipedia articles are on topic of biology.