Mitochondrial debris (from stress/injury) causes "autoimmune" disease

haidut

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After dancing around the issue for the last 10+ years, it looks like medicine is finally ready to admit the obvious. Namely, cellular (and more specifically, mitochondrial) debris created by stress/injury and dumped into the bloodstream causes the (in)famous "flares" that define virtually all "autoimmune" conditions and are the main focus of doctors and pharma industry. The evidence that cellular debris levels are elevated in the bloodstream of patients with such conditions was first proven beyond doubt in the early 2000s. However, as is usually the case, medicine and its Big Pharma accomplices, were quick to claim that the link was not causal and it could in fact be the other way around - i.e. the debris could be a result of the immune system attacking and/or destroying the respective tissue/organ. Well, the study below is probably the biggest to date to show conclusively that the link is in fact causal - i.e. it is the presence of cellular/mitochondrial fragments in the cytosol and bloodstream that triggers SYSTEMIC inflammatory response/cascade. The study also demonstrated that acute/chronic stress/injury reliably leads to the release of such cellular/mitochondrial debris, which then directly triggers the "flare". So, the standard-of-care "treatment" for "autoimmune" conditions with glucocorticoids is one of the worst possible approaches due to both the fact that glucocorticoids are catabolic and themselves increase levels of cellular debris, as well as the fact that those steroids upregulate the expression of inflammatory enzymes (COX, LOX, etc) and the inflammation of the treated patient ends up much higher than pre-treatment as soon as the glucocorticoids are withdrawn (which in most patients they are, as the guidelines are for them to only be used short-term, for "acute exacerbations"). The long-term "treatments" (e.g. Humira) are not benign either as the immunosuppression they cause is known to often result in cancer. Instead, true curative treatment of "autoimmune" conditions should involve stopping tissue catabolism/injury, as well as controlling inflammation. It has been known for almost 100 years that anabolic steroids such as testosterone (as well as nandrolone, oxandrolone, trenbolone, methenolone, etc) are highly effective in stopping almost immediately an "autoimmune" flare and often curing the entire condition for good. This effectiveness has always been a thorn in the side of medicine and Big Pharma, as those steroids are anticatabolic and mostly work by blocking the effects of cortisol. So, if they work, and do so in a manner about directly opposite of glucocorticoids', then medicine prescribing glucocorticoids for such conditions is at best incompetent and at worst openly criminal. However, since neither testosterone nor any of the other anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) have been approved for "autoimmune" conditions, their usage has remained very rare and this has allowed medicine and Big Pharma to continue their scam unnoticed and unopposed. Now, since testosterone is easily aromatized in patients with chronic inflammation (which is the case in "autoimmune" conditions) non-aromatizable anti-catabolic steroids are likely a better option. That includes the endogenous androgen DHT and possibly other non-aromatizable metabolites/precursors such as androsterone. Of course, the "usual suspects" of the OTC anti-catabolic arsenal such as pregnenolone and progesterone are also highly applicable. I don't mention DHEA due to its even higher aromatization risk compared to testosterone, however even the risky DHEA has demonstrated great promise in human studies with Lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriasis, etc. Aspirin and niacinamide for controlling inflammation and improving the energetic balance of the cell should be a great addition to the steroid regimen, and in fact many studies have gone as far as saying that raising NAD+ levels (which niacinamide reliably does) is likely to be curative for all "autoimmune" conditions. In corroboration to the benefit of such an approach, I have many emails from people suffering from "autoimmune" conditions who have been in "indefinite remission" (a nonsensical term invented by their doctors) through a simple combination of pregnenolone/aspirin, progesterone/aspirin, or either steroid combined with aspirin and niacinamide. I am starting to get concerned that the FDA will soon go after these OTC steroids once it realized their potential for treating many diseases that medicine currently considers utterly incurable...

Redirecting
How mitochondrial damage ignites the 'auto-inflammatory fire'

"...When stressed, damaged or dysfunctional, mitochondria expel their DNA (mtDNA), oxidized and cleaved, into the cytosol -- the fluid within a cell in which organelles float -- and beyond into the bloodstream, triggering inflammation. In autoimmune conditions like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, the amounts of circulating oxidized mtDNA correlate with disease severity, flare-ups and how well patients respond to therapies. An unanswered question that has plagued the field is whether oxidized mtDNA is simply a biomarker or indicator of disease or something more: a critical player in disease pathology. In a new study, published the July 13, 2022 issue of the journal Immunity, researchers at University of California San Diego School of Medicine, with colleagues elsewhere, describe the biochemical pathway that results in the generation of oxidized mtDNA, how it is expelled by mitochondria and how it triggers the complex and destructive inflammatory response that follows. "In addition to charting a new pathway responsible for the generation of inflammation-provoking fragments of oxidized mtDNA, this work opens the door to the development of new anti-inflammatory agents," said senior study author Michael Karin, PhD, Distinguished Professor of Pharmacology and Pathology at UC San Diego School of Medicine. When macrophages -- a type of white blood cell that detects infections and tissue damage and marshals other immune system cells to respond -- are exposed to metabolic danger signals, one of the immediate responses is for mitochondria to rapidly take up calcium ions from the cytosol, which results in the generation of reactive oxygen species that lead to formation of oxidized mtDNA and the opening of pores in the mitochondrial membranes through which oxidized mtDNA escapes. "However this oxidized mtDNA is large and before it can sneak through the mitochondrial pores, it needs to be chopped into smaller fragments," said Hongxu Xian, PhD, the study's first author and a postdoctoral scholar in Karin's lab. "That job is carried out by an enzyme called FEN1." Once chopped by FEN1, oxidized mtDNA fragments enter the cytosol where they can bind with two different sensors: NLRP3 and cGAS. NLRP3 is part of a multi-protein complex called the inflammasome that activates inflammatory responses. cGAS is an enzyme that generates a small molecule that acts as a chemical messenger to encourage production of other cytokines -- proteins that stimulate, recruit and proliferate immune cells. Together, NLRP3 and cGAS spur inflammation, which in autoimmune diseases has characteristically run amok..."
 
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Regina

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After dancing around the issue for the last 10+ years, it looks like medicine is finally ready to admit the obvious. Namely, cellular (and more specifically, mitochondrial) debris created by stress/injury and dumped into the bloodstream causes the (in)famous "flares" that define virtually all "autoimmune" conditions and are the main focus of doctors and pharma industry. The evidence that cellular debris levels are elevated in the bloodstream of patients with such conditions was first proven beyond doubt in the early 2000s. However, as is usually the case, medicine and its Big Pharma accomplices, were quick to claim that the link was not causal and it could in fact be the other way around - i.e. the debris could be a result of the immune system attacking and/or destroying the respective tissue/organ. Well, the study below is probably the biggest to date to show conclusively that the link is in fact causal - i.e. it is the presence of cellular/mitochondrial fragments in the cytosol and bloodstream that triggers SYSTEMIC inflammatory response/cascade. The study also demonstrated that acute/chronic stress/injury reliably leads to the release of such cellular/mitochondrial debris, which then directly triggers the "flare". So, the standard-of-care "treatment" for "autoimmune" conditions with glucocorticoids is one of the worst possible approaches due to both the fact that glucocorticoids are catabolic and themselves increase levels of cellular debris, as well as the fact that those steroids upregulate the expression of inflammatory enzymes (COX, LOX, etc) and the inflammation of the treated patient ends up much higher than pre-treatment as soon as the glucocorticoids are withdrawn (which in most patients they are, as the guidelines are for them to only be used short-term, for "acute exacerbations"). The long-term "treatments" (e.g. Humira) are not benign either as the immunosuppression they cause is known to often result in cancer. Instead, true curative treatment of "autoimmune" conditions should involve stopping tissue catabolism/injury, as well as controlling inflammation. It has been known for almost 100 years that anabolic steroids such as testosterone (as well as nandrolone, oxandrolone, trenbolone, methenolone, etc) are highly effective in stopping almost immediately an "autoimmune" flare and often curing the entire condition for good. This effectiveness has always been a thorn in the side of medicine and Big Pharma, as those steroids are anticatabolic and mostly work by blocking the effects of cortisol. So, if they work, and do so in a manner about directly opposite of glucocorticoids', then medicine prescribing glucocorticoids for such conditions is at best incompetent and at worst openly criminal. However, since neither testosterone nor any of the other anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) have been approved for "autoimmune" conditions, their usage has remained very rare and this has allowed medicine and Big Pharma to continue their scam unnoticed and unopposed. Now, since testosterone is easily aromatized in patients with chronic inflammation (which is the case in "autoimmune" conditions) non-aromatizable anti-catabolic steroids are likely a better option. That includes the endogenous androgen DHT and possibly other non-aromatizable metabolites/precursors such as androsterone. Of course, the "usual suspects" of the OTC anti-catabolic arsenal such as pregnenolone and progesterone are also highly applicable. I don't mention DHEA due to its even higher aromatization risk compared to testosterone, however even the risky DHEA has demonstrated great promise in human studies with Lupus, rheumatoid arthritis, psoriasis, etc. Aspirin and niacinamide for controlling inflammation and improving the energetic balance of the cell should be a great addition to the steroid regimen, and in fact many studies have gone as far as saying that raising NAD+ levels (which niacinamide reliably does) is likely to be curative for all "autoimmune" conditions. In corroboration to the benefit of such an approach, I have many emails from people suffering from "autoimmune" conditions who have been in "indefinite remission" (a nonsensical term invented by their doctors) through a simple combination of pregnenolone/aspirin, progesterone/aspirin, or either steroid combined with aspirin and niacinamide. I am starting to get concerned that the FDA will soon go after these OTC steroids once it realized their potential for treating many diseases that medicine currently considers utterly incurable...

Redirecting
How mitochondrial damage ignites the 'auto-inflammatory fire'

"...When stressed, damaged or dysfunctional, mitochondria expel their DNA (mtDNA), oxidized and cleaved, into the cytosol -- the fluid within a cell in which organelles float -- and beyond into the bloodstream, triggering inflammation. In autoimmune conditions like lupus and rheumatoid arthritis, the amounts of circulating oxidized mtDNA correlate with disease severity, flare-ups and how well patients respond to therapies. An unanswered question that has plagued the field is whether oxidized mtDNA is simply a biomarker or indicator of disease or something more: a critical player in disease pathology. In a new study, published the July 13, 2022 issue of the journal Immunity, researchers at University of California San Diego School of Medicine, with colleagues elsewhere, describe the biochemical pathway that results in the generation of oxidized mtDNA, how it is expelled by mitochondria and how it triggers the complex and destructive inflammatory response that follows. "In addition to charting a new pathway responsible for the generation of inflammation-provoking fragments of oxidized mtDNA, this work opens the door to the development of new anti-inflammatory agents," said senior study author Michael Karin, PhD, Distinguished Professor of Pharmacology and Pathology at UC San Diego School of Medicine. When macrophages -- a type of white blood cell that detects infections and tissue damage and marshals other immune system cells to respond -- are exposed to metabolic danger signals, one of the immediate responses is for mitochondria to rapidly take up calcium ions from the cytosol, which results in the generation of reactive oxygen species that lead to formation of oxidized mtDNA and the opening of pores in the mitochondrial membranes through which oxidized mtDNA escapes. "However this oxidized mtDNA is large and before it can sneak through the mitochondrial pores, it needs to be chopped into smaller fragments," said Hongxu Xian, PhD, the study's first author and a postdoctoral scholar in Karin's lab. "That job is carried out by an enzyme called FEN1." Once chopped by FEN1, oxidized mtDNA fragments enter the cytosol where they can bind with two different sensors: NLRP3 and cGAS. NLRP3 is part of a multi-protein complex called the inflammasome that activates inflammatory responses. cGAS is an enzyme that generates a small molecule that acts as a chemical messenger to encourage production of other cytokines -- proteins that stimulate, recruit and proliferate immune cells. Together, NLRP3 and cGAS spur inflammation, which in autoimmune diseases has characteristically run amok..."
I am so grateful to be here. This offering is another treasure trove.
 

DonLore

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Ray Peat right again. 2006.

*Antibodies are involved in removing the debris of cells that have disintegrated. Intense cellular damage causes many "autoantibodies" to be produced. People with AIDS have a high incidence of "autoimmunity."


I have been battling autoimmune problems for 2 years now. I have cut down stress, I eat zero PUFA other than from real foods (meat, dairy and low fat seafood, eggs) and I eat only fresh, real foods. Still I am unable to work. What would be the cause of such a long inflammatory state even while eating better than 99% of other people? I think I have a persistant virus
 

sunny

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I have been battling autoimmune problems for 2 years now. I have cut down stress, I eat zero PUFA other than from real foods (meat, dairy and low fat seafood, eggs) and I eat only fresh, real foods. Still I am unable to work. What would be the cause of such a long inflammatory state even while eating better than 99% of other people? I think I have a persistant virus
In my own situation, and I am still thinking about this, because I have just had a "clear" test result after 20 years.

I was diagnosed with Graves (hyperthyroidism) after a pregnancy, which is when it often happens. This was long before I was aware of Dr Peat , and the "medical treatment" was to murder my thyroid with RAI, radioactive iodine therapy. So, my thyroid was permanently zapped. Years later, maybe 10 or 12, I was in a thyroid group that recommended ultrasound of the thyroid to check for nodules. So I went for one. I could tell the technician has some consternation while performing the ultrasound and I asked what the problem was. She said she could not locate any thyroid tissue. So, I am assuming the body went to work removing all the dead thyroid tissue. During this ensuing time I would get the antibody test for hyper and hypo thyroid - because I had both. They became in range, except fir the Tgab- which was always off the high end of the range, until this spring. It is now in the normal range. So during my quest to understand why that was still always high, I began thinking it was heavy metals. I had read somewhere that it can be high from that. Also my HDL was always just over the high end of the range. Coincidentally?, on the lab tests this spring when the Tgab was finally in range, the hdl was also. So, was it a ray peat lifestyle, with plenty of milk, aspirin, niacinamide, etc that helped resolve those antibodies? Or just a matter of time ? Still thinking ?.
 

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Is intracellular melatonin protective of mitochondria?
Does infrared generate melatonin?
 
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haidut

haidut

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I have been battling autoimmune problems for 2 years now. I have cut down stress, I eat zero PUFA other than from real foods (meat, dairy and low fat seafood, eggs) and I eat only fresh, real foods. Still I am unable to work. What would be the cause of such a long inflammatory state even while eating better than 99% of other people? I think I have a persistant virus

The catabolic steroids such as estrogen, cortisol and hormones like prolactin, TSH and CRH may be elevated. Have you checked those? It is common in people with long-standing tissue/injury to "adapt" and have those pathological mediators elevated, which prevents recovery. As the post says, anticatabolic steroids may help, as could aspirin and niacinamide, but I think it is worth doing tests for the those biomarkers before starting supplementation.
 

David PS

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Is intracellular melatonin protective of mitochondria?
Does infrared generate melatonin?
 

Healthseeker

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I didn't actually read it yet. I just wanted to jump in and say what about resolvins and omega 3's.
 

DonLore

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The catabolic steroids such as estrogen, cortisol and hormones like prolactin, TSH and CRH may be elevated. Have you checked those? It is common in people with long-standing tissue/injury to "adapt" and have those pathological mediators elevated, which prevents recovery. As the post says, anticatabolic steroids may help, as could aspirin and niacinamide, but I think it is worth doing tests for the those biomarkers before starting supplementation.
TSH was something like 1-1.3, so not perfect, but also not that bad. T3 and T4 was good. But I do feel like my prolactin, cortisol and some other stress hormones are often very high, or maybe not high but they dont work properly in any case on the cellular level. Maybe the T3 doesnt work either on cellular level, despite the blood level being good.
My dopamine and GABA are definitely not working, I have zero libido, zero motivation and GABAergics work wonderfully but cant be used long term. Would DHT powder be worth a try? Sometimes my estrogen is low enough, but often I also get bloat since my digestion doesnt work and thus increases inflammation and liver stress.
How would one decrease the stress hormones when I already do a Peaty diet but my digestion is just so bad, I rarely feel any hunger and eating when not hungry causes indigestion and brain fog
 

sunny

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TSH was something like 1-1.3, so not perfect, but also not that bad. T3 and T4 was good. But I do feel like my prolactin, cortisol and some other stress hormones are often very high, or maybe not high but they dont work properly in any case on the cellular level. Maybe the T3 doesnt work either on cellular level, despite the blood level being good.
My dopamine and GABA are definitely not working, I have zero libido, zero motivation and GABAergics work wonderfully but cant be used long term. Would DHT powder be worth a try? Sometimes my estrogen is low enough, but often I also get bloat since my digestion doesnt work and thus increases inflammation and liver stress.
How would one decrease the stress hormones when I already do a Peaty diet but my digestion is just so bad, I rarely feel any hunger and eating when not hungry causes indigestion and brain fog
Does your condition have a "medical name"?
 

DonLore

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Does your condition have a "medical name"?
No because doctors just **** around, in two years they have at best taken a few measly lab tests. ******* idiots. Long-covid is the closest one by symptoms, but of course "long-covid" is just an umbrella term for probably a lot of things. I think I got covid 2.5years ago, followed by intense stress and then I started getting sick every 2-4 weeks, then the 50-60 different symptoms started coming and going: insomnia, stiff neck, total lack of emotions, stress response to anything, migraines, nerve pain, brutal brain fog, memory problems, mood problems, muscle pain, lack of appetite, any kind of excercise can send me to feeling like the worst hungover etc
 

sunny

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No because doctors just **** around, in two years they have at best taken a few measly lab tests. ******* idiots. Long-covid is the closest one by symptoms, but of course "long-covid" is just an umbrella term for probably a lot of things. I think I got covid 2.5years ago, followed by intense stress and then I started getting sick every 2-4 weeks, then the 50-60 different symptoms started coming and going: insomnia, stiff neck, total lack of emotions, stress response to anything, migraines, nerve pain, brutal brain fog, memory problems, mood problems, muscle pain, lack of appetite, any kind of excercise can send me to feeling like the worst hungover etc
Some preliminary thoughts from what you wrote and my own experience - do you take pulse and Temps as described by Broda Barnes and recommended by Peat. Are you able to get outside at daybreak and get light and grounding? It is not recommended to hypothyroid people to do intense exercise- it will make them feel worse. You can order your own complete thyroid panel. It can give some helpful info, as well as the tests Haidut suggests. This company has a great thyroid panel for $88. Thyroid Complete Panel-333417 . I often select many of their tests for things I want to know.
 

tankasnowgod

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I am starting to get concerned that the FDA will soon go after these OTC steroids once it realized their potential for treating many diseases that medicine currently considers utterly incurable...
They may want to, but the FDA doesn't have the power that they had even one month ago. The Supreme Court's decision in the West Virginia vs. EPA case applies to every executive agency, meaning they can't use "Executive Fiat" or "Rule Making Power" to effectively pass laws. To do so, they would need a bill passed in Congress, something that is notoriously difficult, even today.

If the FDA does try to (ab)use this (former, ill-gotten) power, any supplement company should be able to take them to court and get it overturned, even in the lower courts, using the above president.
 

tankasnowgod

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It has been known for almost 100 years that anabolic steroids such as testosterone (as well as nandrolone, oxandrolone, trenbolone, methenolone, etc) are highly effective in stopping almost immediately an "autoimmune" flare and often curing the entire condition for good. This effectiveness has always been a thorn in the side of medicine and Big Pharma, as those steroids are anticatabolic and mostly work by blocking the effects of cortisol.
Do you happen to know of any study that has combined something like testosterone (which seems to be a cortisol antagonist) with something like cyproheptadine, which directly lowers cortisol? Do you think there would be any additional value in such an approach, or not?

I did see one study with high dose cypro use where the patient had very low testosterone (around 100ng/dl), and it doubled after months of 24mg a day, but was still out of range low at about 200, when "normal men" had testosterone levels at 500. That's what made me think they might have complementary effects.
 

DonLore

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Some preliminary thoughts from what you wrote and my own experience - do you take pulse and Temps as described by Broda Barnes and recommended by Peat. Are you able to get outside at daybreak and get light and grounding? It is not recommended to hypothyroid people to do intense exercise- it will make them feel worse. You can order your own complete thyroid panel. It can give some helpful info, as well as the tests Haidut suggests. This company has a great thyroid panel for $88. Thyroid Complete Panel-333417 . I often select many of their tests for things I want to know.
My pulse and temp is sometimes good, sometimes not. I think its the autoimmune or whatever issue causing dysautonomia, not the thyroid causing the issues. My thyroid labs are good/okay, its just that something is causing massive inflammation all over my body and messing with my autonomous nervous system
 

NOBRU

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I have been battling autoimmune problems for 2 years now. I have cut down stress, I eat zero PUFA other than from real foods (meat, dairy and low fat seafood, eggs) and I eat only fresh, real foods. Still I am unable to work. What would be the cause of such a long inflammatory state even while eating better than 99% of other people? I think I have a persistant virus
Very strange, many study show that dairy product are pro-inflammatory ? cancer enhancement by high mTOR ? particularly with aging ! Also sea food today are full of micro-particule of plastic !
 

DonLore

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Very strange, many study show that dairy product are pro-inflammatory ? cancer enhancement by high mTOR ? particularly with aging ! Also sea food today are full of micro-particule of plastic !
Maybe I could try going with just occasional raw cheese, no milk then. Seafood still is net-positive health wise I think, otherwise what the hell can you eat? Wouldnt meat, vegetables, fruit all have microplastics ? And drinking water
 

Gûs80

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I have been battling autoimmune problems for 2 years now. I have cut down stress, I eat zero PUFA other than from real foods (meat, dairy and low fat seafood, eggs) and I eat only fresh, real foods. Still I am unable to work. What would be the cause of such a long inflammatory state even while eating better than 99% of other people? I think I have a persistant virus
Have you tried low dose exemestane? I have lupus/sjogren's, it got much worse in trt due to the elevation of estradiol. When using aromatase inhibitors, relief was almost immediate in the inflamed joints, sleep, generalized anxiety...

Test total testosterone, estradiol, dht, prolactin...

If your test with AI's is good, it's worth supplementing with dht or masteron, it's been very good for me.
 
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Peatness

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@DonLore have you tried thiamine?



 
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