• Due to excessive bot signups along with nefarious actors we are limiting forum registration. Keep checking back for the register link to appear. Please do not send emails or have someone post to the forum asking for a signup link. Until the current climate changes we do not see a change of this policy. To join the forum you must have a compelling reason. Letting us know what skills/knowledge you will bring to the community along with the intent of your stay here will help in getting you approved.

No Need For Mutations, Mitochondrial Stress Alone Can Trigger Cancer

haidut

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,192
Location
USA / Europe
As Ray said, the official story on cancer and many other conditions thought to be genetic is slowly changing. The powers that be won't admit overnight that genetics has little (if anything) to do with cancer, but the evidence for metabolic dysfunction as a cause of cancer is slowly building up. Last year, I posted a seminal study claiming that the Warburg "effect" is not just an effect but a driver and cause of cancer development. Now, this study adds to the evidence that cellular stress, especially in the mitochondria, is sufficient to cause and drive cancer progression.

http://www.nature.com/onc/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/onc2016211a.html
http://medicalxpress.com/news/2016-07-team-mitochondrial-stress-cancer-related-metabolic.html

"...Yet new findings from University of Pennsylvania researchers suggest that such efforts might have missed a key pathway that enables the changes in metabolism that benefit tumors. Their work finds that mitochondrial stress alone can trigger metabolic shifts through a pathway that involves p53, a protein widely known to play multiple important roles in cancer."

"...Further investigation revealed that p53 reduced HIF-1α levels in the nucleus and the cytoplasm of cells and that genes responsive to HIF-1α were blunted when mitochondrial DNA was depleted. Notably, they found that the expression of several genes involved with glycolysis, a metabolic process by which cells break down sugar to make energy, jumped dramatically in cells in which mtDNA was depleted. Some of these were the same genes that HIF-1α normally regulates, pointing to mitochondrial stress as a similar but completely separate pathway by which a metabolic shift can occur in cancer cells."
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,617
Not sure what it is like where you are at Haidut, but a lot of the advertising for cancer treatment is around genetics where I am at. The Mayo clinic really pushes the personalized treatment where they use the cancer's DNA to make "guided missiles" to take the cancer out. From what I have heard it will cost you in the six figure range.

Ads like this:
upload_2016-7-15_8-27-52.png

And sayings like "You didn't plan for cancer, but we did." Gives me the absolute creeps.
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,192
Location
USA / Europe
Not sure what it is like where you are at Haidut, but a lot of the advertising for cancer treatment is around genetics where I am at. The Mayo clinic really pushes the personalized treatment where they use the cancer's DNA to make "guided missiles" to take the cancer out. From what I have heard it will cost you in the six figure range.

Ads like this:
View attachment 3212

And sayings like "You didn't plan for cancer, but we did." Gives me the absolute creeps.

Oh yeah, I live within a few miles of NIH - a vast complex full of people working dead-end careers in genetics and wasting billions of our money. If you look at the poor woman in the picture you can immediately see the signs of high estrogen in her face - irregular facial structure, weaker jaw and larger ears (relative to other facial elements). Of course, it could have been caused by the chemotherapy, but every time I see a face like that I am thinking "yeah, it's genetics that gave her cancer, not hormones like estrogen or PUFA...NOT!"
 
L

lollipop

Guest
Oh yeah, I live within a few miles of NIH - a vast complex full of people working dead-end careers in genetics and wasting billions of our money. If you look at the poor woman in the picture you can immediately see the signs of high estrogen in her face - irregular facial structure, weaker jaw and larger ears (relative to other facial elements). Of course, it could have been caused by the chemotherapy, but every time I see a face like that I am thinking "yeah, it's genetics that gave her cancer, not hormones like estrogen or PUFA...NOT!"
Interesting @haidut your correlation with facial features and high estrogen. Where can I learn more? Have you written about it before? Please forgive if you have and I missed it while combing this site...thank you for pointing me there!
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,192
Location
USA / Europe
Interesting @haidut your correlation with facial features and high estrogen. Where can I learn more? Have you written about it before? Please forgive if you have and I missed it while combing this site...thank you for pointing me there!

There are a few older studies, and Peat has told people over email that facial and body deformations are most likely an estrogen issue. Bone deformities are almost always estrogen driven. In older times there was a blanket condition called "cretinism", which Ray talks about in his articles. While it is most often associated with mental deficiency, most cretins also have severe facial and/or body deformities. It can be cause by exposure to estrogens during pregnancy or in early life of the baby. DDT, DES, and all of the *fene drugs can cause it.
Radiation is estrogenic as Peat has mentioned and I discussed on the Danny shows. Chemotherapy is almost always estrogenic as well. No matter how targeted and personalized these "treatments" are sold as they will still cause much damage than the cancer itself and even if they induce remission they will cause secondary cancer a few years later due to the systemic shift towards estrogen dominance.
 
L

lollipop

Guest
There are a few older studies, and Peat has told people over email that facial and body deformations are most likely an estrogen issue. Bone deformities are almost always estrogen driven. In older times there was a blanket condition called "cretinism", which Ray talks about in his articles. While it is most often associated with mental deficiency, most cretins also have severe facial and/or body deformities. It can be cause by exposure to estrogens during pregnancy or in early life of the baby. DDT, DES, and all of the *fene drugs can cause it.
Radiation is estrogenic as Peat has mentioned and I discussed on the Danny shows. Chemotherapy is almost always estrogenic as well. No matter how targeted and personalized these "treatments" are sold as they will still cause much damage than the cancer itself and even if they induce remission they will cause secondary cancer a few years later due to the systemic shift towards estrogen dominance.
Fascinating, thank you...
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,617
Fascinating, thank you...

That is really fascinating. I also find it interesting that the woman in the ad above would be considered pretty and in a very normal kind of prettiness that is very common now days. Not like the days of old pretty:
 

Attachments

  • image.gif
    image.gif
    242.5 KB · Views: 230
L

lollipop

Guest
That is really fascinating. I also find it interesting that the woman in the ad above would be considered pretty and in a very normal kind of prettiness that is very common now days. Not like the days of old pretty:
Amazing how the photos you posted are round, healthy, balanced faces!! I have noticed that since "peating" (whatever that really means - lol) low PUFA for a year now my face has begun to be more round and full like these :): Feeling better all the time with my face shape change, was a bit worried before...
 

haidut

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Mar 18, 2013
Messages
18,192
Location
USA / Europe
That is really fascinating. I also find it interesting that the woman in the ad above would be considered pretty and in a very normal kind of prettiness that is very common now days. Not like the days of old pretty:

Note the fuller faces and bigger jaws of both men and women in these older pictures. This is not a coincidence, lack of estrogen exposure creates such features. Estrogen exposure and stress emasculates men and masculinizes women in a very unattractive way. Birth control pills with pure estrogen cause the same effects. Men these days are also on "birth control pills". The synthetic estrogens in those pills are almost impossible to degrade, so they end up in water, food, air, clothes, everything. City-dwelling men these days have the hormonal profile or menopausal women.
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,617
Amazing how the photos you posted are round, healthy, balanced faces!! I have noticed that since "peating" (whatever that really means - lol) low PUFA for a year now my face has begun to be more round and full like these :) Feeling better all the time with my face shape change, was a bit worried before...

Ha, yeah me too. My jaw is so much bigger it's kind of frightening sometimes. That's what taking estroban everyday for 6 months will do I suppose. I wonder why the skinny unhealthy people, both men and women, are considered so desirable? Maybe it's like a reverse psychology thing...like they are so unhealthy and yet they are alive so they must be strong.
 
L

lollipop

Guest
Note the fuller faces and bigger jaws of both men and women in these older pictures. This is not a coincidence, lack of estrogen exposure creates such features. Estrogen exposure and stress emasculates men and masculinizes women in a very unattractive way. Birth control pills with pure estrogen cause the same effects. Men these days are also on "birth control pills". The synthetic estrogens in those pills are almost impossible to degrade, so they end up in water, food, air, clothes, everything. City-dwelling men these days have the hormonal profile or menopausal women.

Truly out right scary...and most people don't "get" this:

"Men these days are also on "birth control pills". The synthetic estrogens in those pills are almost impossible to degrade, so they end up in water, food, air, clothes, everything. City-dwelling men these days have the hormonal profile or menopausal women."
 
L

lollipop

Guest
Ha, yeah me too. My jaw is so much bigger it's kind of frightening sometimes. That's what taking estroban everyday for 6 months will do I suppose. I wonder why the skinny unhealthy people, both men and women, are considered so desirable? Maybe it's like a reverse psychology thing...like they are so unhealthy and yet they are alive so they must be strong.
Why does reading your post give me such a sigh of relief? There ARE reasonable thinkers out there :dancingsmileyman
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
584
There are a few older studies, and Peat has told people over email that facial and body deformations are most likely an estrogen issue. Bone deformities are almost always estrogen driven. In older times there was a blanket condition called "cretinism", which Ray talks about in his articles. While it is most often associated with mental deficiency, most cretins also have severe facial and/or body deformities. It can be cause by exposure to estrogens during pregnancy or in early life of the baby. DDT, DES, and all of the *fene drugs can cause it.
Radiation is estrogenic as Peat has mentioned and I discussed on the Danny shows. Chemotherapy is almost always estrogenic as well. No matter how targeted and personalized these "treatments" are sold as they will still cause much damage than the cancer itself and even if they induce remission they will cause secondary cancer a few years later due to the systemic shift towards estrogen dominance.

That is really fascinating. I also find it interesting that the woman in the ad above would be considered pretty and in a very normal kind of prettiness that is very common now days. Not like the days of old pretty:

Note the fuller faces and bigger jaws of both men and women in these older pictures. This is not a coincidence, lack of estrogen exposure creates such features. Estrogen exposure and stress emasculates men and masculinizes women in a very unattractive way. Birth control pills with pure estrogen cause the same effects. Men these days are also on "birth control pills". The synthetic estrogens in those pills are almost impossible to degrade, so they end up in water, food, air, clothes, everything. City-dwelling men these days have the hormonal profile or menopausal women.

The largest contributing factor to the wide faces and well developed jaws is chewing and the resulting correct tongue posture. Form follows function and it's most clear in indigenous/hunter gatherer people than in later generations. The use of their jaws for chewing tough food and for other non-eating purposes like creating leather and tools is what allowed them to develop well proportioned faces, with strong cheekbones and jaws.

When Western Price traveled and noticed poor dental structure and narrow faces, he assumed the cause was the lack of nutrients in their processed-food heavy diets but he was wrong. It wasn't the food per se, it was the toughness of the food. The modern diet with its highly processed and soft food doesn't exercise the jaw muscles nearly enough for a well developed face to form.

You'll noticed nearly every kid wearing braces, and they often have narrow faces, a long nose and flat cheekbones. That's got nothing to do with hormones but everything to do with a lack of tough-food chewing and correct tongue posture from childhood. Another case of the environment heavily impacting the organism for the worse.

Check this link for more info: A Food and Breathing Problem - MAHB
 

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,617
The largest contributing factor to the wide faces and well developed jaws is chewing and the resulting correct tongue posture. Form follows function and it's most clear in indigenous/hunter gatherer people than in later generations. The use of their jaws for chewing tough food and for other non-eating purposes like creating leather and tools is what allowed them to develop well proportioned faces, with strong cheekbones and jaws.

When Western Price traveled and noticed poor dental structure and narrow faces, he assumed the cause was the lack of nutrients in their processed-food heavy diets but he was wrong. It wasn't the food per se, it was the toughness of the food. The modern diet with its highly processed and soft food doesn't exercise the jaw muscles nearly enough for a well developed face to form.

You'll noticed nearly every kid wearing braces, and they often have narrow faces, a long nose and flat cheekbones. That's got nothing to do with hormones but everything to do with a lack of tough-food chewing and correct tongue posture from childhood. Another case of the environment heavily impacting the organism for the worse.

Check this link for more info: A Food and Breathing Problem - MAHB

Pretty interesting article. This probably has some contributing factor. But WP treated people with many carries with forms of fat solubles and had good results. Can't be all hormesis. Vitamin K definitely affects jaw size
 

Vinero

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
1,530
Age
30
Location
Netherlands
If what cantstoppeating is saying is right than a peat diet that consists mostly of soft foods like milk and OJ seems really bad..
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
584
If what cantstoppeating is saying is right than a peat diet that consists mostly of soft foods like milk and OJ seems really bad..

It is, especially for kids when their jaws are growing and they're learning how to position their tongue (which when your mouth is closed, should be resting against the ceiling of your mouth).

I was in a third world country recently. In the city, almost everyone had overcrowding, teeth that were't straight, faces that were narrow with long or hooked noses (the tel tale sign of a collapsed maxilla). Look at the below image: the bone behind and to the sides of the nose (the maxilla) does't grow forward but downwards and backwards, which pulls the nose downwards and backwards. This stops the bottom jaw growing forward. All this is, surprisingly, controlled by the teeth which are controlled by the tongue and chewing. The white outline is how his face should have looked had it grown properly.
mrc-myobrace-beginner-course-2014-part-1-80-638.jpg


In the villages however, I saw perfectly straight teeth, wide faces, short and straight noses.

Shanina-Shaik-Daily-Front-Row-Second-Annual-mBK8JqsPrQol.jpg

No one can achieve the broad and well developed faces of our ancestors without chewing and resting the tongue against the ceiling of the mouth. From the ages between 2-10 years, having only OJ and Milk would literally make a child uglier because of poor jaw development. A liquid diet wouldn't be bad in adulthood when the jaws have set providing one learns how to rest their tongue on the roof of their mouth and chews something hard periodically.

(@haidut) Anyone who has kids, make sure to feed them tough cuts of meat!
 
Last edited:

dd99

Member
Joined
Apr 26, 2014
Messages
434
@cantstoppeating that's very interesting, thanks.

When you say kids should chew something hard periodically, how often is periodically? I ask, because my three year old son eats lots of fruit and dairy, oats for breakfast, occasional bread, but also has rice or potatoes and veggies once a day with a protein (beef, liver, seafood, chicken).

Do you think the once a day hard chewing is sufficient for proper jaw and tooth development?
 

schultz

Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Messages
2,632
Weston Price recognized "excercizing" of the jaw for development. In the book he talked about how the inuit (the people in the pictures posted above) would carry things in their mouth. He said the strong guys could carry something like 100lbs in each hand and another 100lbs holding it with his teeth. He thought this was one reason their teeth were ground down so far. Another reason he thought was because they used their teeth to prepare leather or something (I read it several years ago, so don't remember specifics). Even with the teeth ground down so far, they didn't seem to get many cavities. In the pictures posted above, there is 1 woman with a missing tooth... from what I remember, she had like 22 children or something crazy lol.

I'm going to guess and say jaw development is both hormonal and mechanical. Why does it have to be one or the other? God forbid it be based on multiple factors, that's too confusing!!
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2014
Messages
584
@cantstoppeating that's very interesting, thanks.

When you say kids should chew something hard periodically, how often is periodically? I ask, because my three year old son eats lots of fruit and dairy, oats for breakfast, occasional bread, but also has rice or potatoes and veggies once a day with a protein (beef, liver, seafood, chicken).

Do you think the once a day hard chewing is sufficient for proper jaw and tooth development?

Yes, daily hard-chewing is ideal. Kids going through weaning should be introduced to relatively hard foods like apples, carrots and meats as soon as possible. You seem to be doing the right things.

Weston Price recognized "excercizing" of the jaw for development. In the book he talked about how the inuit (the people in the pictures posted above) would carry things in their mouth. He said the strong guys could carry something like 100lbs in each hand and another 100lbs holding it with his teeth. He thought this was one reason their teeth were ground down so far. Another reason he thought was because they used their teeth to prepare leather or something (I read it several years ago, so don't remember specifics). Even with the teeth ground down so far, they didn't seem to get many cavities. In the pictures posted above, there is 1 woman with a missing tooth... from what I remember, she had like 22 children or something crazy lol.

I'm going to guess and say jaw development is both hormonal and mechanical. Why does it have to be one or the other? God forbid it be based on multiple factors, that's too confusing!!

Jaw development is both hormonal and mechanical. The derangement of jaws however, that's so prevalent in modern society, which is what I'm talking about in this thread, is caused largely by the mechanical side and little if any by the hormonal side. Visit Africa, have a look at all the starving children who lack nutrients to make their Peaty hormones and note their strikingly straight teeth and developed jaws.

At the expense of being too graphic:
640x392_27784_162710.jpg
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
M Pregnant and in desperate need of advice Female Issues 34
A Need help to figure out why I react so badly to coffee Ask For Help or Advice 16
xeliex Carrots and mushrooms reaction - need advice Diet 15
L I need help in getting income Ask For Help or Advice 5
JamesGatz Do we really need 7-8 hours of sleep ? Does low stress/faster metabolism lower the time our body's require to rest ? Miscellaneous 20
bookshelf Milk Substitute - need quick guidance Milk 11
A 17 YEAR OLD -- NEED to restore health/libido etc Diet 130
Hans The only hormone you need to crush fear Articles & Scientific Studies 76
S Do you need as much carbs if your metabolism is already (to/fast? Diet 0
B Need to heal my gut but can’t handle amino acids - now what? Digestion 10
D Need help trying to remember a great website Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 4
C Really need some advice--adrenaline, menopause, Thyroid and Hormones 3
A Aspirin could protect the lungs of COVID-19 patients, minimize the need for mechanical ventilation, according to new research at George Washington U. Scientific Studies 0
charlie "God We Need You Now" The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 9
D Need to help my girlfriend suffering from SSRI use Cortisol, Serotonin, Histamine 6
H Job offer - need someone to help formulate Peat-friendly supplements The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 51
D Need help finding studies showing serotonin is dopamine antagonist/lowers dopamine Cortisol, Serotonin, Histamine 10
J Yeast overgrowth!…Candida…Need suggestions.. Digestion 47
N COVID Long Hauler for 7 months, need help Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 142
Summer Need help forgetting or overcoming a fear of something Ask For Help or Advice 33
ImprovingDaily Almost fully recovered from Covid pneumonia, here are some tips for anyone who may need them. Viruses, Parasites, Fungus, Vaccines 20
Nfinkelstein Need help interpreting labs Ask For Help or Advice 1
Nfinkelstein Need help interpreting labs Blood Work, Labs 0
PleaseDoo21 Excessive saliva production, need desperate help Ask For Help or Advice 8
Hans What you need to know about A1, A2 milk and health Articles & Scientific Studies 9
D Need to rant about covid, what am I missing? Health 1
Inaut Building A Home Gym...What do I need? Exercise 38
A I need to contact gbolduev The Ray Peat Forum Lounge 18
B Need help with some serious medical issues after from clomid and hcg blood pressure going crazy Ask For Help or Advice 0
C Need help understanding estrogen issues Ask For Help or Advice 7
D Covid-19, neurological issues, and Coffee: Need Help Coffee 19
M How do I know how much betaine hcl I need? Digestion 14
B Do cats need carbs? Animals 30
Pina Does African Need a Pandemic? Vaccines 98
A Need advice on pressure to get my brother vaccinated who has hepatitis c Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 6
P Bamboo shoots. Do they need to be raw like carrots? Diet 6
ddjd NEED HELP. My partner wants the vaccine and is breastfeeding our 3 week old baby Ask For Help or Advice 132
A Why is it not important to release the patent so we can vaccinate the 6 billion people who don’t have access to the vaccine but you need too. Science 9
W What's happening to me,I need HIGH DOSE OF DIMENIDRINATE(600mg) Symptoms, Causes 0
D I’m scheduled for a major surgery soon, and my family member has a cold. Need preventative remedies... Ask For Help or Advice 3
S Nathan Hatch says all we need is olive oil Fats 7
yerrag This App Would Be Perfect for Determining Your Acid-Base Status, Except I Need To Tweak It With Your Help Acidity vs. Alkalinity 4
G Need to numb myself for several days Mental Issues 7
Braveheart See the insanity for itself; what more proof do you need? Vaccines 4
deliciousfruit I need to get this poop out ASAP Digestion 50
A Need help – Stress, HB A1c, High Lymphocytes, Low Libido Blood Work, Labs 10
Braveheart Don't Panic...Lighten UP... We need to laugh a little.... Vaccines 16
B Have cystic acne need some help. Skin 29
Ideal man I need help sudden pfs syndrome symptoms Male Issues 12
Mito Covid-19 vaccines: In the rush for regulatory approval, do we need more data? Vaccines 2

Similar threads

Top