"Happiest" Countries Are Simply Gobbling Up Anti-depressants (SSRI)

[keith]

I lived in Oslo for a year in the 80's, and found the people there to be very friendly and happy in a genuine, not forced way. I was a kid then, so may have idealized it some, but from my experience there, it never surprised me to hear that Scandinavians were among the world's happiest. My two cents.

 

[moss]

Worldwide Australia have the second highest use of antidepressants (2013)and come second on the happiness index,you mentioned before haidut that they were pushing ssri's in South Korea claiming it will bring them higher in the happiness index?
Below is from 2013.
Australia second in world in using antidepressants: report

It's interesting many will try pin sunlight/vitamin D to the Nordic depression yet here we have Australia which gets plenty of sunlight with issues.

The Slip Slop Slap Campaign (Slip on a hat, Slop on sunscreen and Slap on a hat) from the 80s is still so deeply entrenched and a population with a high Vit D deficiency wouldn't help.

Is happiness what we even should be aiming for? Happiness is fleeting and in my opinion we all suffer for chasing it (and probably is a cause of depression). I think a better goal is to live a meaningful life. Focusing on happiness is to focus on oneself, focusing on meaning is to focus on your impact in the world and I think is a much more worthwhile goal.

And appreciating what you do have - even the most basic of things.
Always looking for happiness outside of oneself, as if somehow it is a fixed and continuing state to aspire to sets up for disappointment.
Expecting someone else to provide happiness is totally unrealistic.
Meaningful interactions and finding purpose is fundamental.
I think the less you focus on happiness the more randomly you experience it.

 

[SarahBeara]

A meaningful life is pretty vague. It's usually hard to define without including happiness.

Actually it's quantifiable and separate from happiness. For example people's happiness goes down when they have children but the meaning in their life goes up.

And happiness levels do nothing to prevent suicide but levels of suicide go down as reported levels of meaning go up. People in war zones aren't happy, but they rarely commit suicide due to that unhappiness.

We can increase meaning by:

• Belonging to a group: I’ll be at lunch with Andy and the guys. Where will you be?
• Give your work purpose: You’re not emptying trash cans. You’re helping get a man on the moon.
• Craft your story: This is the internal story you tell yourself about your life, you alone can make it tragic or triumphant
• Transcendence: Ascending to a higher plain however that is defined to you. For me I get out in nature. Nature is big. My problems are small.

 

[jaa]

Actually it's quantifiable and separate from happiness. For example people's happiness goes down when they have children but the meaning in their life goes up.

And happiness levels do nothing to prevent suicide but levels of suicide go down as reported levels of meaning go up. People in war zones aren't happy, but they rarely commit suicide due to that unhappiness.

We can increase meaning by:

• Belonging to a group: I’ll be at lunch with Andy and the guys. Where will you be?
• Give your work purpose: You’re not emptying trash cans. You’re helping get a man on the moon.
• Craft your story: This is the internal story you tell yourself about your life, you alone can make it tragic or triumphant
• Transcendence: Ascending to a higher plain however that is defined to you. For me I get out in nature. Nature is big. My problems are small.

I agree with all those things being beneficial, but I think they are beneficial because they increase happiness either in the moment, or upon reflection.

 

[SarahBeara]

I agree with all those things being beneficial, but I think they are beneficial because they increase happiness either in the moment, or upon reflection.

True they might also bump happiness as a side effect, but if belonging to a group means going to war in a batallion, you won't be happy about it but your sense of meaning will go up (if you believe in the cause of the war)

 

[allblues]

Here's a interesting study on SSRIs and what i think represent at least part of their percieved "benefits" - decreasing incentive/motivation; Decreased Incentive Motivation Following Knockout or Acute Blockade of the Serotonin Transporter: Role of the 5-HT2C Receptor. - PubMed - NCBI

A commonly reported effect of these drugs are "numbing out," "not caring," even "falling out of love." It makes sense that if you quit caring or become numb to the sources of your troubles, you'll probably cease being depressed about them.

But the risk is of course that you also cease caring about things you previously liked.
Finding creative ways of adapting and learning from your challenges become less likely.

This echoes previous posters, how can we expect to grow if instead of dealing with the sources of problems we take drugs that numb us to them, with major risks of putting our way of even relating to the world, objects and caring about them, out of play.
Never mind the other side effects.

And what does that say about how these drugs are working systemically, when they're able to push the organism towards apathy?
Apathy seems to me like a sign of degeneration.

 

[Greg says]

Denmark, The Model Matrix For A Brave New World

Denmark - Model Matrix For A Brave New World

'In a plethora of recent opinion polls, Denmark has been called the `happiest` place on earth. How can this be? How can a people so totally controlled claim such happiness? To answer the question: they don't know any better.'

 

[jaa]

True they might also bump happiness as a side effect, but if belonging to a group means going to war in a batallion, you won't be happy about it but your sense of meaning will go up (if you believe in the cause of the war)

I find that difficult to uncouple that from happiness.

There are people who go to war and absolutely love it, and people who go to war and hate it. Most people fall somewhere in between, where they look back fondly on the camaraderie and the relative place they are now compared to then, even if they hated the moment to moment experience of actually fighting the war.

 

[SarahBeara]

I find that difficult to uncouple that from happiness.

There are people who go to war and absolutely love it, and people who go to war and hate it. Most people fall somewhere in between, where they look back fondly on the camaraderie and the relative place they are now compared to then, even if they hated the moment to moment experience of actually fighting the war.

I can see why it's easy to fuse meaning and happiness when our society is so happiness focused but they are different things. Basically meaning can make you happy but happiness can't make meaning if that makes any sense.

 

[jaa]

I see what you're saying, but I think your conflating 'things that people mistakenly think will make them happy' and 'things that actually make them happy'. And then in the end meaning and happiness are two sides of the same coin.

Or maybe I'm just too married to the term happiness since Matthieu Ricard's book Happiness makes me so happy.

 

[Drareg]

The Slip Slop Slap Campaign (Slip on a hat, Slop on sunscreen and Slap on a hat) from the 80s is still so deeply entrenched and a population with a high Vit D deficiency wouldn't help.




And appreciating what you do have - even the most basic of things.
Always looking for happiness outside of oneself, as if somehow it is a fixed and continuing state to aspire to sets up for disappointment.
Expecting someone else to provide happiness is totally unrealistic.
Meaningful interactions and finding purpose is fundamental.
I think the less you focus on happiness the more randomly you experience it.

To be fair the sun at over 30 degrees is dangerous,I understand the winter has sun and can be over 20 degrees under 30 in some parts.
The beach bum advertising campaigns I came across before while looking for info on this topic,I don't get why you discourage kids from the beach,the message was don't skip school but It was distorted.

I think what would be really interesting is to check ssri use in areas with the most sunshine like Perth or the Gold Coast,the Aussie government seem to be saying it's the aboriginal community driving up suicide rates and mainly rural people,I don't buy this.
It's slightly disconcerting that with the length of the Aussie economic boom ssri use is so high and suicides quite high for a so labelled happiest country,these stats may get out of control when the economic bubble pops.

 

[Drareg]

The suicide index lists Denmark at 82 in the world,there is not much in the difference per 100,000 people though for the happiest country in the world,keep in mind these suicide lists are very questionable.
Australia at number 50.

 

[daIllu]

I live in Sweden, my experience with SSRIs (sertralin) is that they get some kind of nice pumping kinda pleasurable feeling going in me, definitely can make me calm, usually when I went to lie in bed it felt I had this kinda feel good chemical being pumped around in my body, kinda like being drunk but not so strong. The feeling has a little recemblance to getting sexually aroused also although the most extatic feelings are not there, like orgasm, or it's there but it takes longer to reach and is usually not that strong.

I did experience this feeling also while trying to naturally rise my serotonin levels few years back (diet/excercise/supplements) interestingly it was similar but alot more pleasurable because my sexdrive was also there full force while sleep and everything was amazing. I might try this again since I can't seem to get anywhere with trying to lower serotonin, it might be my dopamine is too low, although I have the impression that dopamine is more this extatic feeling when you win in something or achieve something great and is not something you'd wanna be feeling all the time, like I'd like to feel calm in between the excitement :P Caffeine does seem dopaminergic but yea the feeling is a bit too much to be walking around with all the time.

 

[moss]

To be fair the sun at over 30 degrees is dangerous,I understand the winter has sun and can be over 20 degrees under 30 in some parts.
The beach bum advertising campaigns I came across before while looking for info on this topic,I don't get why you discourage kids from the beach,the message was don't skip school but It was distorted.

I think what would be really interesting is to check ssri use in areas with the most sunshine like Perth or the Gold Coast,the Aussie government seem to be saying it's the aboriginal community driving up suicide rates and mainly rural people,I don't buy this.
It's slightly disconcerting that with the length of the Aussie economic boom ssri use is so high and suicides quite high for a so labelled happiest country,these stats may get out of control when the economic bubble pops.

Nobody is saying extreme heat and midday sun cannot be harmful.
The Cancer Council here has done an excellent job perpetuating a fear of the sun...some go to great lengths to avoid the sun and that cannot be good for your moods, some lather themselves silly with sunscreen and go fry themselves (and their PUFA laden skins) to a burnt crisp in the hottest part of the day...
If I had to live on the Gold Coast I would resort to SSRIs!
Seriously, Drs spend around 5-10 mins with pts and dish out SSRIs like lollies and of course there are social and economic problems that contribute to an overall problem.

 

[Drareg]

Nobody is saying extreme heat and midday sun cannot be harmful.
The Cancer Council here has done an excellent job perpetuating a fear of the sun...some go to great lengths to avoid the sun and that cannot be good for your moods, some lather themselves silly with sunscreen and go fry themselves (and their PUFA laden skins) to a burnt crisp in the hottest part of the day...
If I had to live on the Gold Coast I would resort to SSRIs!
Seriously, Drs spend around 5-10 mins with pts and dish out SSRIs like lollies and of course there are social and economic problems that contribute to an overall problem.

I'm not Aussie and haven't lived there but I suspect this ssri attitude is everywhere.
I though the Gold Coast area was amazing? Falling for the tourist board spiel!

It's a tough place to live with those temps,working in 30 degrees plus heat is difficult. I guess that has its own biological stresses on the body,particular those with Northern European epigentics.

 

[Constatine]

The Western world is falling. People are losing their intelligence, power, and happiness. I am a millennial and none of my friends in college can study without Adderall, they get depressed if they're not high nearly all day, etc. My generation is weaker than the ones before, and if millennials moved back in time a few centuries, we would get laughed at and destroyed.

Obviously I'm generalizing a lot and there are plenty of exceptions, but this is just a trend I noticed

I am relatively young and everyone I know must be high all day else they slip into deep depression. My roommate who smokes every day is taking a break this November. But he can't stand it so he is on adderall every single day now (including right now). Very sad times.

 

[zztr]

People in Denmark are definitely aware of this "Happiest Country" nonsense. I doubt the surveys work.

Read a bit about Jante Law and talk to some Dane expatriates who vow to never live there again. Maybe Denmark works OK for helping the bulk of Danes to "be happy" but it is actually a rather intolerant society. Eccentricity or non-conformance is not tolerated there. If you don't fit their template you won't actually be very "happy" there.

 

[DaveFoster]

I am relatively young and everyone I know must be high all day else they slip into deep depression. My roommate who smokes every day is taking a break this November. But he can't stand it so he is on adderall every single day now (including right now). Very sad times.

Honestly, I think hormonal (androgen) therapy can fix most, if not all of these problems.

It's a shame we generally reserve hormonal therapy for people with "gender identity" issues.

It's the ultimate, final signaling system of the body, but people would rather fool around with neurotransmitters. Dr. Peat knows what's up.

 

[Constatine]

Honestly, I think hormonal (androgen) therapy can fix most, if not all of these problems.

It's a shame we generally reserve hormonal therapy for people with "gender identity" issues.

It's the ultimate, final signaling system of the body, but people would rather fool around with neurotransmitters. Dr. Peat knows what's up.

I completely agree with androgen therapy. In fact that's what I make my rat do. I believe people underestimate the importance of androgens in mental health and general well-being. It is more important to increase androgens than focus on increasing dopamine for mental stability.
I wonder if I could go to my doctor and say I have gender identity issues and want androgens. He'll say "your already a man", and I'll say "yes but I identify as a big buff man". Full proof.
I wish I could get my hands on a free form testosterone. Unfortunately haidut cannot legally produce it for rats to the best of my knowledge. And I've heard that attaching a keto group to it reduces the potency unlike 11-keto-dht, but I could be wrong. I would not feed my rat classical steroids as the effects are not necessarily the same as normal androgens and I doubt it will enable positive feedback loops. God I wish you can buy testosterone at your local Walgreens right next to the aspirin.

 

[DaveFoster]

I wonder if I could go to my doctor and say I have gender identity issues and want androgens. He'll say "your already a man", and I'll say "yes but I identify as a big buff man". Full proof.
I wish I could get my hands on a free form testosterone. Unfortunately haidut cannot legally produce it for rats to the best of my knowledge. And I've heard that attaching a keto group to it reduces the potency unlike 11-keto-dht, but I could be wrong. I would not feed my rat classical steroids as the effects are not necessarily the same as normal androgens and I doubt it will enable positive feedback loops. God I wish you can buy testosterone at your local Walgreens right next to the aspirin.

Can't argue with the lady, erm, half-man.

Have you considered shutdown with T? I'm not familiar with Peat's input on the subject besides he says that topical 2-3 mg is safe IIRC. By "safe" he could mean a host of things.