CD38 Dictates Age-Related NAD Decline and Mitochondrial Dysfunction through an SIRT3-Dependent Mechanism

[Ismail]

I am not a good at observing changes, here are some of my posts to answer questions about herbs that I take.

Food Sources For Apigenin And Naringenin

I decided to try to obtain apigenin the old fashion way by eating vegetables and plants. I have attached a table of food sources below. Naringenin Here is a table for food sources for Naringenin. Phenol-Explorer: Showing all foods in which the polyphenol Naringenin is found Mexican oregano...

raypeatforum.com

Apigenin experiences

I've been interested in trying apigenin for it's anxiolytic effects, NMDA antagonist and GABAA agonist, but have been put off by the long half-life in rats (91.8h). How long do the cognitive effects of this supplement last? Any worries regarding accumulation?

raypeatforum.com

CD38 Dictates Age-Related NAD Decline and Mitochondrial Dysfunction through an SIRT3-Dependent Mechanism

CD38 Dictates Age-Related NAD Decline and Mitochondrial Dysfunction through an SIRT3-Dependent Mechanism Highlights •CD38 levels increase in tissues with age and correlate with NAD decline •NAD and mitochondrial function are preserved in old CD38 knockout mice •CD38 metabolizes NMN in vivo and...

raypeatforum.com

Thanks buddy, gonna have a read

 

[Ismail]

Shocking indeed. Ah you raise an interesting point with the energy levels. Ok, so Dr Hoffer mentioned that niacin lowers some type of chemical (adrenaline perhaps?) that is stimulating/not calming. So that could be the reason Dr Lustgarten felt not much increase in energy levels. Since some of his stimulating chemicals were being lowered by niacin. Different energy systems in the body.
I've heard other Dr's mention it's (NAD boost) more of a circadian improvement, better sleep, maybe more cool/calm/collected in the day time and not adrenaline surge/catecholamine type energy only.
However, some plant extracts can effect certain systems in the body, like the MAOI enzyme and inhibit it, which will cause more dopamine, noradrenaline, and serotonin and some other stuff. So, if you do it (niacin/b vitamins) with various products say quercetin, nicotine, resveratrol, and other interesting stuff you will get more of a "speedy energy". Could also only focus on the other systems Dr. Conlon talked about improving with the plant extracts, and leave out the b vitamins.
I think adding a b complex vitamin with it is a nice synergy also. Add in some coffee with your meal for a fun kick. Tons of protein in the meal to hit glutamate, glycine, gaba, histamine systems. Eggs and meat for the choline and atp systems.
The only issue I have, which I mentioned last month here is the possible blocking (or antagonism) of various endorphins/opioid systems from apigenin and egcg. I am not sure on this but suspect something is going on. No clue about other peptide systems, but hopefully someone one day reads this and has more information about it.
So, using some of those extracts or products long term might not be a good idea as it could cause pain issues due to lowered endorphins maybe? Or lower mood if it's not balanced or cycled out in some way.
Anyways, I am thinking too much and seem to be getting over my head with neuro & energy systems. Hopefully that makes some sense.

I felt the niacin flush is more calming than niacinamide, in terms of energy. However, I think the flush does some stuff that the other's do not but I am not 100% sure.
I think flush niacin might cause more vasodilation.

Thank you soooo much, you and @David PS have been ever so helpful and kind, I have quite a bit of reading to do, after which I can make a better decision on what to try etc.

 

[Ismail]

way to do it would be dried parsley (probably 1 to 2+ tbsp)

Would parsley leaf extract be the “same” or similar in terms of benefits and outcome?

Like this one:

Parsley Leaf 1000mg 30 Capsules Digestive, Menstrual, Insect Bites https://amzn.eu/d/jj8GO6u

 

[Insaneacinamide]

Would parsley leaf extract be the “same” or similar in terms of benefits and outcome?

Like this one:

Parsley Leaf 1000mg 30 Capsules Digestive, Menstrual, Insect Bites https://amzn.eu/d/jj8GO6u

I can't see the price but I think it would be better to go dried parsley in a big bottle like 50+ grams to 500grams. Either from super market or if you find a good deal with good reviews on a dried parsley product.
That product you linked is only 30 grams.
You can use a electric grinder to make it even finer powder or use your hand to crumble the dried parsley up even more to get more into a serving size.
I don't know for sure but it's said 1 gram dried parsley = around 45mg apigenin.
@David PS might have some info on dosing dried parsley, and amount of apigenin in it per gram.
IIRC he uses 1 or 2 tbsp with a fat meal but I don't know for sure.
I do know others mention doing 1 tbsp of dried parsley daily. So, try doing that amount with some food: mixed into it or on the side to dip food into it should be fine. Some prefer a fat source with it but I don't know if that matters.
I am challenging you, Ismail, to the dried parsley challenge . A first of it's kind ... put 1 or 2 tbsp of dried parsley in a small glass of water, stir it up, and chug it down.
That's how I get it down sometimes. It doesn't have much of a taste, and feels a bit refreshing after.
I first noticed the effect from doing Swanson brand 50mg apigenin capsules. You could try that brand. However, it's a low dose and still more expensive than dried parsley.
Or the donotage has a apigenin supplement that seems to be popular which IIRC is like 250mg per capsule apigenin and like 1 serving is 2 caps = 500mg. But it's very expensive. Compare their price to a 100 gram bottle of dried parsley lol.
So, I'd stick to dried parsley as it's the cheapest.

 

[Ismail]

I can't see the price but I think it would be better to go dried parsley in a big bottle like 50+ grams to 500grams. Either from super market or if you find a good deal with good reviews on a dried parsley product.
That product you linked is only 30 grams.
You can use a electric grinder to make it even finer powder or use your hand to crumble the dried parsley up even more to get more into a serving size.
I don't know for sure but it's said 1 gram dried parsley = around 45mg apigenin.
@David PS might have some info on dosing dried parsley, and amount of apigenin in it per gram.
IIRC he uses 1 or 2 tbsp with a fat meal but I don't know for sure.
I do know others mention doing 1 tbsp of dried parsley daily. So, try doing that amount with some food: mixed into it or on the side to dip food into it should be fine. Some prefer a fat source with it but I don't know if that matters.
I am challenging you, Ismail, to the dried parsley challenge . A first of it's kind ... put 1 or 2 tbsp of dried parsley in a small glass of water, stir it up, and chug it down.
That's how I get it down sometimes. It doesn't have much of a taste, and feels a bit refreshing after.
I first noticed the effect from doing Swanson brand 50mg apigenin capsules. You could try that brand. However, it's a low dose and still more expensive than dried parsley.
Or the donotage has a apigenin supplement that seems to be popular which IIRC is like 250mg per capsule apigenin and like 1 serving is 2 caps = 500mg. But it's very expensive. Compare their price to a 100 gram bottle of dried parsley lol.
So, I'd stick to dried parsley as it's the cheapest.

Challenge accepted lol!

Thanks for explaining and “spelling out” the above - it seems obvious now that I’ve read your message, but wasn’t so obvious before.

Really appreciate all of your help and guidance.

Just placed my order:

- niacinamide 500mg capsiles
- Organic dried loose parsley - 100g
- r-ALA - 200mg capsules
- Rutin - 450mg
- EGCg - 400mg

 

[Ismail]

Is there any good and reliable NAD+ tests that you guys have tried or know of?

I only know of the donotage.org test, which is prohibitively expensive! (£180!)

At Home NAD Test Kit - DoNotAge.org

Evaluate your NAD levels with the At-Home NAD Test Kit. Maximise your health and wellness with DoNotAge.org's easy and convenient testing solution.

donotage.org

 

[Ismail]

I am challenging you, Ismail, to the dried parsley challenge . A first of it's kind ... put 1 or 2 tbsp of dried parsley in a small glass of water, stir it up, and chug it down.
That's how I get it down sometimes. It doesn't have much of a taste, and feels a bit refreshing after.

So I got the dried parsley today - took 15g, initially it looked like a lot to "chug down", however I decided to put it into the coffee grinder - it literally became a third of the size after grinding it down lol! Mixed with some OJ and downed it!

Have also received and taken the rutin, R-ALA, niacinamide and the EGCG today. Will keep you updated in the coming days

 

[Insaneacinamide]

So I got the dried parsley today - took 15g, initially it looked like a lot to "chug down", however I decided to put it into the coffee grinder - it literally became a third of the size after grinding it down lol! Mixed with some OJ and downed it!

Have also received and taken the rutin, R-ALA, niacinamide and the EGCG today. Will keep you updated in the coming days

That's awesome to hear! You ain't playing around there with a 15g dose. That's half the amount of the 30g product you linked before lol.
If you decide to keep up the 15g, you can always look for like 1lb (or bigger) bag or bottle size when your 100g one is finished.
Yeah, keep us updated here.
I don't know what your plan is with taking all those products at once or another way. Maybe even 1 day off per week or something like that, I have no clue really what would work best. 2 weeks on, 1 week off perhaps. Move down to a lower dose b complex or multi vitamin for a bit after to cruise on. before blasting a bigger supplement stack.
You could try all at once, but could try and mix it up like in 3 meals. Even could do higher niacinamide, like build up to bigger dose. Some ideas:
-all together with 1 meal
-meal 1: 500 niacinamide with rutin, meal 2 egcg and r-ala, meal 3 dried parsley
-meal 1: 500 niacinamide with egcg, meal 2: 500 niacinamide with rutin, and r-ala, meal 3: dried parsley
-meal 1: 500 niacinamide + whatever, meal 2: 500 niacinamide with whatever, meal 3: 500 niacinamide with whatever. Might need to add some methyl donors here if you are going that high like added choline, tmg, or more beets/eggs in the diet. A lot of ways to try things. Could go even higher on the niacinamide if you can handle it.
It would be cool to see someone try it as some of the Dr's go pretty high on various niacin products. I think Dr. Hoffer was around 3G-4G+ niacin + even more niacinamide (probably 100+mg) from the b complex he took with it.
Anyways, I hope your stack/experiment goes great!!

That test is expensive. Perhaps just go by "feel" at various dosages of those products you have. Could always keep searching various companies and test prices to find something much cheaper.

 

[Ismail]

That's awesome to hear! You ain't playing around there with a 15g dose. That's half the amount of the 30g product you linked before lol.

Lol I know right!!! So glad I listened to you and got the loose form
I wasn’t sure about the dosage of the parsley, so I came across this video (below - 5mins 59 secs) and it showed a dosing strategy, which for me equated to approximately 15g - do you think that’s too much? I may drop it down to 1 tablespoon instead, as I definitely don’t think Dr Nicholas’s product has that much parsley powder in it - they don’t specific what the amount or ratios are (understandably).


View: https://youtu.be/hbfs_2Rd2mU?si=7d8IHa8kfveKCwxE

If you decide to keep up the 15g, you can always look for like 1lb (or bigger) bag or bottle size when your 100g one is finished.

Yes definitely will look into that

Yeah, keep us updated here.
I don't know what your plan is with taking all those products at once or another way.

I’m just trying to increase my energy levels and initially following what Dr Nichola has created in her product - I’ve always seen posts mentioning Dr Peat expounding upon the benefits of niacinamide, however I never really paid any attention to them (to my detriment!) until now.

Maybe even 1 day off per week or something like that, I have no clue really what would work best. 2 weeks on, 1 week off perhaps. Move down to a lower dose b complex or multi vitamin for a bit after to cruise on.

I take a b-complex with TTFD every other day, sometimes daily - it’s a little random, and I never take the whole capsule as I’m a little worried the RDI’s are too high, so I split them into smaller capsules (usually 1 b complex capsule into 4 capsules and also 1 ttfd capsule into 4 capsules).

before blasting a bigger supplement stack.
You could try all at once, but could try and mix it up like in 3 meals. Even could do higher niacinamide, like build up to bigger dose. Some ideas:
-all together with 1 meal
-meal 1: 500 niacinamide with rutin, meal 2 egcg and r-ala, meal 3 dried parsley
-meal 1: 500 niacinamide with egcg, meal 2: 500 niacinamide with rutin, and r-ala, meal 3: dried parsley
-meal 1: 500 niacinamide + whatever, meal 2: 500 niacinamide with whatever, meal 3: 500 niacinamide with whatever.

That’s a good suggestion, thank you
Yesterday was my first day trying this, and I took everything in 1 dose, partly because I was feeling lazy and didn’t want to start splitting capsules etc.
I hadn’t slept very well the night before, however after taking the above combo I felt really “good” and had an urge to get through my to-do list - which was surprising for me!

Might need to add some methyl donors here if you are going that high like added choline, tmg, or more beets/eggs in the diet.

I’m trying to eat at least 2 - 4 eggs a day.

A lot of ways to try things. Could go even higher on the niacinamide if you can handle it.
It would be cool to see someone try it as some of the Dr's go pretty high on various niacin products. I think Dr. Hoffer was around 3G-4G+ niacin + even more niacinamide (probably 100+mg) from the b complex he took with it.
Anyways, I hope your stack/experiment goes great!!

Thanks my man, really genuinely appreciate all your support etc

That test is expensive. Perhaps just go by "feel" at various dosages of those products you have. Could always keep searching various companies and test prices to find something much cheaper.

Yes it is a little ridiculous, was hoping to measure my NAD+ before starting this, but like you said I’m just going to go by the “feel” which is my main goal anyway, to “feel” better/more energetic etc.

Will keep you updated

Let me know if you think of anything else which I haven’t thought of etc.

 

[Ismail]

I may drop it down to 1 tablespoon instead, as I definitely don’t think Dr Nicholas’s

*Dr Nichola’s

 

[Insaneacinamide]

I wasn’t sure about the dosage of the parsley, so I came across this video (below - 5mins 59 secs) and it showed a dosing strategy, which for me equated to approximately 15g - do you think that’s too much? I may drop it down to 1 tablespoon instead, as I definitely don’t think Dr Nicholas’s product has that much parsley powder in it - they don’t specific what the amount or ratios are (understandably).

Lol yeah I saw that YouTube channel before and it's a high dose for sure. I guess it all depends on the person and what they can tolerate/feel/handle etc.
I think 1 tbsp is fine for many people. Some might want smaller dose maybe 1 teaspoon, and some want higher like the guy in the video.
Looking at time+ product, it appears 3 capsule serving size is 1.1grams of egcg/rutin/parsley powder/black pepper. My guess is the parsley powder would be around 200mg-400mg x 2 servings of 6 capsules a day = around 400mg - 800mg parsley powder.
Guessing that parsley powder is more finely ground up than most regular dried parsley. No idea of the conversion ratio of grinding it into a fine powder vs regular dried parsley sold as seasoning etc. Maybe double to quadruple the amount but no clue unless one measures it out after.

But experiment & log various dosages and see what works best for you.
David PS brought up an interesting point in page 3 here "In each video she stated that you only need to take her company's supplement for a short time (I forget the length of time) to achieve good results..."

 

[Ismail]

Lol yeah I saw that YouTube channel before and it's a high dose for sure. I guess it all depends on the person and what they can tolerate/feel/handle etc.
I think 1 tbsp is fine for many people. Some might want smaller dose maybe 1 teaspoon, and some want higher like the guy in the video.
Looking at time+ product, it appears 3 capsule serving size is 1.1grams of egcg/rutin/parsley powder/black pepper. My guess is the parsley powder would be around 200mg-400mg x 2 servings of 6 capsules a day = around 400mg - 800mg parsley powder.

I was trying to figure that out too actually - I’m “guesstimating” the same, I’ve taken a slightly lower dose of dried parsley today (10g as opposed to 15g) and may lower it a little more over the coming days.

Guessing that parsley powder is more finely ground up than most regular dried parsley. No idea of the conversion ratio of grinding it into a fine powder vs regular dried parsley sold as seasoning etc. Maybe double to quadruple the amount but no clue unless one measures it out after.

Yeh it’s quite a massive difference actually, I was quite shocked at how much “smaller” the mass of parsley had become within seconds of grinding.

But experiment & log various dosages and see what works best for you.

Definitely

David PS brought up an interesting point in page 3 here "In each video she stated that you only need to take her company's supplement for a short time (I forget the length of time) to achieve good results..."

Yeh I remember @David PS mentioning this, it’s a little confusing as it implies (somewhat) that the supplement has semi permanent effects perhaps

 

[David PS]

Yeh I remember @David PS mentioning this, it’s a little confusing as it implies (somewhat) that the supplement has semi permanent effects perhaps

For me, it implied that her statement(s) was designed to sell product (at least in the short term). If you are not able to feel an improvement from her product, would you be able to state with certainty that it is still working months after you stop?
I have been making a milk based kefir to increase the diversity of my micobiome. Based on the expense, I currently intend to continue for long time.

 

[Ismail]

For me, it implied that her statement(s) was designed to sell product (at least in the short term).

That’s definitely quite plausible.

If you are not able to feel an improvement from her product, would you be able to state with certainty that it is still working months after you stop?

Good point!

I have been making a milk based kefir to increase the diversity of my micobiome. Based on the expense, I currently intend to continue for long time.

Point taken

 

[Ismail]

Lol yeah I saw that YouTube channel before and it's a high dose for sure. I guess it all depends on the person and what they can tolerate/feel/handle etc.
I think 1 tbsp is fine for many people. Some might want smaller dose maybe 1 teaspoon, and some want higher like the guy in the video.
Looking at time+ product, it appears 3 capsule serving size is 1.1grams of egcg/rutin/parsley powder/black pepper. My guess is the parsley powder would be around 200mg-400mg x 2 servings of 6 capsules a day = around 400mg - 800mg parsley powder.
Guessing that parsley powder is more finely ground up than most regular dried parsley. No idea of the conversion ratio of grinding it into a fine powder vs regular dried parsley sold as seasoning etc. Maybe double to quadruple the amount but no clue unless one measures it out after.

But experiment & log various dosages and see what works best for you.
David PS brought up an interesting point in page 3 here "In each video she stated that you only need to take her company's supplement for a short time (I forget the length of time) to achieve good results..."

Do you think there would be any issues with the oxalates in parsley?

 

[Insaneacinamide]

Do you think there would be any issues with the oxalates in parsley?

If you are concerned about anything, just lower the dose of anything. For instance, I noticed apigenin effect dosing it at 50mg. Which is perhaps around 1g-2g of dried parsley(probably not finely ground up either). Which would be closer to what the time+ product has in it anyways in terms of parsley powder.
If you feel the rutin or egcg is too much, lower the dose. Could put it them together into a capsule or however you can intake them, to lower the dose.
Even the niacinamide can be lowered if you are concerned. Be safe, enjoy, and keep healthy!

 

[Ismail]

If you are concerned about anything, just lower the dose of anything. For instance, I noticed apigenin effect dosing it at 50mg. Which is perhaps around 1g-2g of dried parsley(probably not finely ground up either). Which would be closer to what the time+ product has in it anyways in terms of parsley powder.

Yeh that’s a good idea, makes sense.

If you feel the rutin or egcg is too much, lower the dose.

How would I know they’re too much? Is there any specific signs/symptoms to look out for?

Could put it them together into a capsule or however you can intake them, to lower the dose.
Even the niacinamide can be lowered if you are concerned. Be safe, enjoy, and keep healthy!

Thanks buddy.

I didn’t take anything today, as yesterday and early this morning my knees and the muscles just above my knees felt a bit weak and “tender”, which is really odd as I’m not that old and that’s never happened before.

I think I’ll do as you’ve suggested and lower the dosage and see if that makes a difference (probably gonna halve everything first and go from there).

@David PS shared a search query with all posts by @haidut on niacinamide - mind blowing how beneficial it is, surprised I overlooked it for so many years

 

[David PS]

@David PS shared a search query with all posts by @haidut on niacinamide - mind blowing how beneficial it is, surprised I overlooked it for so many years

Dr. Hofer and his longevity misdirected my attention. Haidut's posts turned the corner for me.

 

[Validus]

@David PS Sorry if you mentioned this already, but do you prefer the niacin flushing version and if so, how much do you take every day? Any concerns with elevated liver enzymes I've read about?

 

[Insaneacinamide]

How would I know they’re too much? Is there any specific signs/symptoms to look out for?

I didn’t take anything today, as yesterday and early this morning my knees and the muscles just above my knees felt a bit weak and “tender”, which is really odd as I’m not that old and that’s never happened before.

Yes, I feel (only a theory of mine) that egcg and apigenin are opioid antagonists to some degree. Some they might lower "feel good, anti pain" chemicals (like endorphins). No clue how powerful of effect they have, but it's powerful enough to feel something going on at various dosages.
My lower back and feet do get sore if I use too much of those (apigenin especially). Nothing too major as I don't mind a better circadian cycle.
Actually, too much egcg and I find myself craving cannabis. I searched this and it looks like egcg is cannabinoid receptor type 1 angoist. Am not a big fan of cannabis or opioids. So a lot of different things going on with these products.

Dr. Hofer and his longevity misdirected my attention. Haidut's posts turned the corner for me.

Hoffer as spoken positive for niacin flush, niacin no flush, and niacinamide. There are some differences between them. Cost being one of them.
Here is his thoughts on them.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zTOEWrdArY