B1 Advice

[tillpickle]

Hi all,
Read on here and elsewhere the great results the Italian researchers had with three fibro sufferers given high doses of B1. And @haidut gave some good advice also. I’m really interested in trying to improve muscle strength and eradicate aches and pains ( long term cfs pretty much)
So yesterday I purchased some 250mg B1 tablets at lunchtime and took two straight away (500mg). I was hoping for an instant energy boost, but it was more like instant irritability for 1/2 hr followed by extreme relaxation and sleepiness ,slept for two hours. Still slept all night too, actually the deepest sleep I’ve had in a while.

So thinking I may need to start at lower dose? Perhaps combine with a bcomplex? Some also take magnesium at the same time for added absorption.
Might try 250 mg this morning + bcomp+mg, asses then repeat at lunchtime if not too dozey again.

How are others currently dosing? And any suggestions? Diet is on point. Gradually increasing calories as my metab increases

 

[Tarmander]

I have found, and others have discussed, that the Thiamine salts like HCL are not nearly as effective as the fat soluble types. Benfotiamine I have tried and am enjoying although I had a bit of insomnia when I took too much. I haven't tried Allithiamine but that is another good option.

If you do stick with the thiamine salts you have to take quite a bit it seems.

 

[redsun]

Hi all,
Read on here and elsewhere the great results the Italian researchers had with three fibro sufferers given high doses of B1. And @haidut gave some good advice also. I’m really interested in trying to improve muscle strength and eradicate aches and pains ( long term cfs pretty much)
So yesterday I purchased some 250mg B1 tablets at lunchtime and took two straight away (500mg). I was hoping for an instant energy boost, but it was more like instant irritability for 1/2 hr followed by extreme relaxation and sleepiness ,slept for two hours. Still slept all night too, actually the deepest sleep I’ve had in a while.

So thinking I may need to start at lower dose? Perhaps combine with a bcomplex? Some also take magnesium at the same time for added absorption.
Might try 250 mg this morning + bcomp+mg, asses then repeat at lunchtime if not too dozey again.

How are others currently dosing? And any suggestions? Diet is on point. Gradually increasing calories as my metab increases

Thiamine increases acetylcholine, which explains why it helped your sleep. But taking such a high dose out of nowhere likely tanked blood sugar and increased acetylcholine significantly and incredibly fast. Lots of acetylcholine will have negative effects on mood and can makr you feel tired. Acetylcholine itself isnt bad but an abrupt increased production of ACh will disrupt your normal neurotransmitter levels that you have gotten used to. Also should make sure to have more potassium with it, as B1 uses potassium.

 

[ExCarniv]

Thiamine increases acetylcholine, which explains why it helped your sleep.

Interesting, will try some Thiamine for deep sleep.

 

[redsun]

Interesting, will try some Thiamine for deep sleep.

Thiamine + choline(I assume you get choline in the diet) works well for sleep in general. ACh is incredibly vital for sleep.

 

[ExCarniv]

Thiamine + choline(I assume you get choline in the diet) works well for sleep in general. ACh is incredibly vital for sleep.

Yes I get plenty of choline from eggs, milk, beef, liver etc

But Thiamine most days I'm on 1/1.5mg from foods, so supplementation could be a good addition.

 

[Homo Consumericus]

Thiamine increases acetylcholine, which explains why it helped your sleep. But taking such a high dose out of nowhere likely tanked blood sugar and increased acetylcholine significantly and incredibly fast. Lots of acetylcholine will have negative effects on mood and can makr you feel tired. Acetylcholine itself isnt bad but an abrupt increased production of ACh will disrupt your normal neurotransmitter levels that you have gotten used to. Also should make sure to have more potassium with it, as B1 uses potassium.

Dr. Peat teaches that too much acetylcholine can lead to inescapable stress, learned helplessness, Alzheimers, and difficulty in recovering from brain trauma: New Page Title Here.

 

[redsun]

Dr. Peat teaches that too much acetylcholine can lead to inescapable stress, learned helplessness, Alzheimers, and difficulty in recovering from brain trauma: New Page Title Here.

I'm well aware of his thoughts on acetylcholine and I don't really agree with it much. And you can't simply refuse to take certain essential vitamins and minerals to not make more of it because you are basically preventing your body from making what it wants to make. Before I got into increasing acetylcholine, my memory was utter garbage and getting worse, overall cognitive function was bad, my muscle tone severely suffered, vascularity went way down(sign of increased noradrenaline/sympathetic activity), tired all the time aka no endurance for daily life, very weakened in the gym, poor workout recovery, sleep issues(high noradrenaline causing me to ruminate/stay up until very late), poor verbal fluency(stumbling over words, poor vocabulary in social settings, poor sentence forming).

That's just off the top of my head. Immediately increasing acetylcholine through multiple means quickly started to reverse all that. You want helplessness, I'd say I was pretty helpless running on noradrenalin and adrenaline and having difficulty speaking clearly and functioning. Ironically the vitamin that has been big here lately, B1, is one of the few vital nutrients that is able to allow you to oxidize carbohydrates properly and likewise very vital for acetylcholine production and therefore brain function.

You either stay stuck in the sympathetic nervous system or parasympathetic. Your supposed to be dominant in the rest and digest system mostly, and this system needs acetylcholine to run and lots of it. ACh is constantly being made and broken down, it is well regulated but needs nutrients to keep this process going, without certain nutrients your parasympathetic system gets ****88 and doesn't work as well as it should. I was stuck in sympathetic dominance for so long and it was the greatest relief to turn it off(not an exaggeration I could feel it turn off).

Doesn't mean you go to the other extreme and pound tons of choline supplements down your throat. Point is it is stupid to be afraid of acetylcholine when clearly low ACh can make you helpless just on it's own(which is exactly what I experienced).

 

[Homo Consumericus]

I'm well aware of his thoughts on acetylcholine and I don't really agree with it much. And you can't simply refuse to take certain essential vitamins and minerals to not make more of it because you are basically preventing your body from making what it wants to make. Before I got into increasing acetylcholine, my memory was utter garbage and getting worse, overall cognitive function was bad, my muscle tone severely suffered, vascularity went way down(sign of increased noradrenaline/sympathetic activity), tired all the time aka no endurance for daily life, very weakened in the gym, poor workout recovery, sleep issues(high noradrenaline causing me to ruminate/stay up until very late), poor verbal fluency(stumbling over words, poor vocabulary in social settings, poor sentence forming).

That's just off the top of my head. Immediately increasing acetylcholine through multiple means quickly started to reverse all that. You want helplessness, I'd say I was pretty helpless running on noradrenalin and adrenaline and having difficulty speaking clearly and functioning. Ironically the vitamin that has been big here lately, B1, is one of the few vital nutrients that is able to allow you to oxidize carbohydrates properly and likewise very vital for acetylcholine production and therefore brain function.

You either stay stuck in the sympathetic nervous system or parasympathetic. Your supposed to be dominant in the rest and digest system mostly, and this system needs acetylcholine to run and lots of it. ACh is constantly being made and broken down, it is well regulated but needs nutrients to keep this process going, without certain nutrients your parasympathetic system gets ****88 and doesn't work as well as it should. I was stuck in sympathetic dominance for so long and it was the greatest relief to turn it off(not an exaggeration I could feel it turn off).

Doesn't mean you go to the other extreme and pound tons of choline supplements down your throat. Point is it is stupid to be afraid of acetylcholine when clearly low ACh can make you helpless just on it's own(which is exactly what I experienced).

I'm sorry you were doing so poorly and am happy to hear you solved your problem by increasing acetylcholine.

Acetylcholine isn't something I'm afraid of. I eat plenty of eggs and even use uridine monophosphate and acetylcarnitine from time to time. But the OP should know what Dr. Peat's position is.

I would like to get my hands on some selegiline to see if Dr. Peat is right.
The Most Sought-After Anti-Aging Drug | Life Extension

To the OP, ditch the thiamine hcl and get benfotiamine. Take it with some fat at a meal during the first half of the day. You will wake up and burn the hell out of all the carbs you're eating.

 

[Light]

Hi all,
Read on here and elsewhere the great results the Italian researchers had with three fibro sufferers given high doses of B1. And @haidut gave some good advice also. I’m really interested in trying to improve muscle strength and eradicate aches and pains ( long term cfs pretty much)
So yesterday I purchased some 250mg B1 tablets at lunchtime and took two straight away (500mg). I was hoping for an instant energy boost, but it was more like instant irritability for 1/2 hr followed by extreme relaxation and sleepiness ,slept for two hours. Still slept all night too, actually the deepest sleep I’ve had in a while.

So thinking I may need to start at lower dose? Perhaps combine with a bcomplex? Some also take magnesium at the same time for added absorption.
Might try 250 mg this morning + bcomp+mg, asses then repeat at lunchtime if not too dozey again.

How are others currently dosing? And any suggestions? Diet is on point. Gradually increasing calories as my metab increases

haidut has posted about several experiments with high dose Thiamine + Acetazolamide, they have alot of similarities, and Acetazolamide depletes electrolytes, so there's a good chance B1 does too. In one of those experiments the participants were given orange juice along with Thiamine + Acetazolamide to replenish those nutrients:
Acetazolamide Plus Thiamine As Treatment Of Mental Conditions

Also, in case you missed it:
The Ability To Metabolize Glucose Is Impaired In CFS/ME Patients

In my own recent experience, taking Thiamine + Acetazolamide while eating not-so-clean food (pizza) had a big effect in causing fatigue for me too,
today I had alot more fruits with orange juice and more protein, and almost zero fat, and I already feel better.
Hope this helps :)

Edit - BTW, @Blossom did a slow increase of B1 in an old thread, worth finding it, it might support your idea of inceasing the dose slowly.

 

[tillpickle]

thankyou for your replies, I really love this group . Its all very helpful information and I will look into @Blossom 's experiences also.

Yesterday, as planned I halved the dose to 250mg and took at breakfast . Whilst I was no where near as tired, I decided to hold off on taking anymore until before bed. So I took another 250mg with my pre-bed milk and honey drink and slept very well again. This morning I woke to temps of 36.8C! and I have colour in my face for the first time in a very long while, and some motivation (at least I think thats what it is, nearly forgot what that feels like)

Don't think I'll attempt taking a bcomplex with the evening B1 dose incase i stay awake, so i'll leave those for daytime.

I'm pretty excited by these results so far.

 

[Wolf]

I'm sorry you were doing so poorly and am happy to hear you solved your problem by increasing acetylcholine.

Acetylcholine isn't something I'm afraid of. I eat plenty of eggs and even use uridine monophosphate and acetylcarnitine from time to time. But the OP should know what Dr. Peat's position is.

I would like to get my hands on some selegiline to see if Dr. Peat is right.
The Most Sought-After Anti-Aging Drug | Life Extension

To the OP, ditch the thiamine hcl and get benfotiamine. Take it with some fat at a meal during the first half of the day. You will wake up and burn the hell out of all the carbs you're eating.

"I would like to get my hands on some selegiline to see if Dr. Peat is right."
What do you mean?

 

[Homo Consumericus]

"I would like to get my hands on some selegiline to see if Dr. Peat is right."
What do you mean?

"An anticholinergic drug, selegeline (deprenyl) that is used to treat Parkinson's disease and, informally, as a mood altering antiaging drug, was found by a different group (Zhu, et al., 2000) to improve cognitive recovery from brain injuries (New Page Title Here)."

I want the antidote to learned helplessness.

 

[Inaut]

I always take my b1 with OJ.

 

[Blossom]

thankyou for your replies, I really love this group . Its all very helpful information and I will look into @Blossom 's experiences also.

Yesterday, as planned I halved the dose to 250mg and took at breakfast . Whilst I was no where near as tired, I decided to hold off on taking anymore until before bed. So I took another 250mg with my pre-bed milk and honey drink and slept very well again. This morning I woke to temps of 36.8C! and I have colour in my face for the first time in a very long while, and some motivation (at least I think thats what it is, nearly forgot what that feels like)

Don't think I'll attempt taking a bcomplex with the evening B1 dose incase i stay awake, so i'll leave those for daytime.

I'm pretty excited by these results so far.

I would be glad to help but feel that @charlie or @Orion could provide you much better information on b1. Best wishes @tillpickle.

 

[Blossom]

@tillpickle, here’s a site with lots of good info on b1.
How Can Something As Simple As Thiamine Cause So Many Problems?- Hormones Matter
You might enjoy this article too.
Thiamine and Riboflavin for Chronic Fatigue - Hormones Matter

 

[tillpickle]

@tillpickle, here’s a site with lots of good info on b1.
How Can Something As Simple As Thiamine Cause So Many Problems?- Hormones Matter
You might enjoy this article too.
Thiamine and Riboflavin for Chronic Fatigue - Hormones Matter

Thankyou @Blossom, great articles

 

[Blossom]

Thankyou @Blossom, great articles

You’re welcome.

 

[Wilfrid]

Very interesting post. I would also say that sulfur containing B vitamins ( B1 and B8 ) can negatively interact with thyroid function.
Thiamine inhibits formation of organic radioiodinated compounds by the thyroid. It reduces formation of monoiodotyrosine and diiodotyrosine.
Worth mentioning that several structural analogues of B1 also inhibit thyroid function.
B1 can, as well, interact with manganese ( involved in T4 synthesis ) and vitamin C in acetylcholine synthesis.
Suffice to say that messing with thiamine can be tricky.

 

[milkboi]

"An anticholinergic drug, selegeline (deprenyl) that is used to treat Parkinson's disease and, informally, as a mood altering antiaging drug, was found by a different group (Zhu, et al., 2000) to improve cognitive recovery from brain injuries (New Page Title Here)."

I want the antidote to learned helplessness.

Wow I forgot that, I'm taking 5mg Selegine per week (for its effect on MAO-B) and I decided to take some Cypro for better sleep yesterday, and today I was not feeling well at all, maybe there were too much anti-cholinergic effects going on.