Addiction, hedonism, tolerance and withdrawal?

[Parsifal]

About addictions I have some things to ask after listening again to haidut's podcast.

It seems that we blame addiction just because of stress and a bad environment that doesn't allow people to thrive (rat park's experiment) but in my experience this is not always true, I've had friends that had a very good life and no reason to stress and felt into the drug addiction trap just because of hedonism and lust, the pursuit of more and more pleasure that put them in a vicious cycle that was hard to break once started because you can't feel satisfied once your brain is used to this massive overload of chemicals.

I've also tried some drugs and I can tell you I've never lived a better time in my life even the most happiest moments and I would probably take drugs everytime if my body could handle it (unfortunately my health doesn't allow me to do so). But maybe that is because I've had anhedonia issues since the beginning of my teens.

I think that we forget to talk about the tolerance effect of drugs. When you take a psychoactive product after some times the cells become less sensitive to it (even coffee). I've read on the forum people telling to others that if the effects of coffee where not as strong as in the beginning that is because the metabolism becomes healthier... I'm very skeptical about this claim (but why not), if you don't feel the same effects from heroin than in the beginning this is because your body becomes healthier?
I know we are coming with the paradigm that the cells have no membranes but this is a bit confusing.
I know we are talking about withdrawal symptoms only coming from high serotonin because the addiction was there supposedly because of stress that needed to be adressed that way but what about the tolerance effect and the cells becoming less sensitive to the substance the drugs was agonizing before?

I think this is dangerous to have this exclusive view to addiction even if there is some truth in it, it doesn't seem really true to me.
On the other hand I find it really impressive that DMT for example can bypass heroin withdrawal and things like that. By the way DMT seems really different from LSD and really close in structure to serotonin so maybe it creates a tolerance effect to serotonin making it harder for the brain to use it?

What do you think about it guys? I want to know your opinion on this topic because I'm sure it will allow me to understand more things about it .

 

[barefooter]

Nice post, lots of good points and things to ponder here. I think you're right, that drug use and addiction isn't just about stabilizing the organisms and avoiding stress, but it's much more complicated. I think Peat, haidut, etc. are mainly focusing on that, because it's often overlooked when drug addiction is treated as a moral or self control issue.

You make a good point, that many healthy people are attracted to drugs for hedonistic purposes, and once they get a taste, their domanine/reward centers in the brain may get a bit out of balance, and there hedonistic cravings may not be satisfied with normal reality. It seems like kind of a dampening of the senses maybe, that you've experienced something so amazing while high, how can reality compare.

I personally experimented with MDMA a bit, purely for fun, and not to relieve stress or to stabilize my health, and I can see how I could have gotten really drawn into using regularly if I was hanging out with the wrong crowd. It was the most amazing thing I ever experienced--no anxiety, open to people and experiences, limitless energy, etc. And, eventually it would have degrade my health, and I probably would have left getting little pleasure from life and craving it more and more. I guess, you can start healthy, experiment with drugs, become less healthy via too much drug use, and then develop an addiction as life is no longer enjoyable.

 

[James_001]

It was the most amazing thing I ever experienced--no anxiety, open to people and experiences, limitless energy, etc..

That is what having a good metabolism should feel like.

 

[barefooter]

post 115610 That is what having a good metabolism should feel like.

Well yes, and no. I think MDMA would take you beyond what a good metabolism can, but it's a highly unsustainable state because the energy expenditure is so high. However, I do agree that those should be attributes of overall good health and metabolic function. On MDMA, I can dance for hours on end (6+) and not feel tired, which I think is an unnatural and not really healthy thing anyway. I don't think any amount of good thyroid function is going to get you there, but that's really for the best. Also, I think MDMA makes you even more open than you would be if you were just perfectly healthy, but it's too open. You can't be in a permanent state where you fall in love with everybody, because it's way too vulnerable.

 

[michael94]

Regarding tolerance in the negative sense ( i.e. it makes you feel worse than your baseline if you had never taken it ), I think this it is our bodies response to trying to mask symptoms of a poor metabolism with stress hormones ( more energy ) or by manipulating actions on certain receptors that doesn't support overall health ( i.e. amphetamines ). Makes sense no? Your body is smart and sees that how good you're feeling is not congruent with your actual health. As expected, it tries to adjust.

post 115614

post 115610 That is what having a good metabolism should feel like.

Well yes, and no. I think MDMA would take you beyond what a good metabolism can, but it's a highly unsustainable state because the energy expenditure is so high. However, I do agree that those should be attributes of overall good health and metabolic function. On MDMA, I can dance for hours on end (6+) and not feel tired, which I think is an unnatural and not really healthy thing anyway. I don't think any amount of good thyroid function is going to get you there, but that's really for the best. Also, I think MDMA makes you even more open than you would be if you were just perfectly healthy, but it's too open. You can't be in a permanent state where you fall in love with everybody, because it's way too vulnerable.

I used to think so too, but uncoupling your respiration and operating on an oxidative metabolism (having optimal thyroid levels is only one part of this )will give you: high dopamine, low serotonin, low glutamate. That is productivity, bliss, and heightened feelings of spirituality ( for me at least ). In addition to having a good metabolism, I think personal relationships, proper hierarchy, and environmental aesthetics are crucial to one's health. I could go into this more but I'll just say we are not pure blank slates and have certain emotional needs as human beings that are not very mutable in the same way our response to serotonin is not very mutable.

FWIW, that is basically how LSD works, along with some other receptor actions that cause hallucinations in high doses. If I had never been introduced to LSD I'd probably still be low carbing, doing tons of intense exercise, and being altogether unhealthy. Lucy doesn't just make one feel like they have always wanted to, it has lasting effects that carry over into improving your life. I have abused all sorts of drugs and nothing quite compares to the therapeutic effects of LSD, hydergine and lisuride are also probably good but I've not tried those and doubt they compare just based on anecdotes ( though I do think they may be better for daily use ). Psyclobin mushrooms are also comparable. DMT I'm not experienced enough to make a comment.

Here's an excerpt from a small case study on LSD therapy, I think the effects will be of interest based on how you liked MDMA.

Results: Subjective Reports
The literature on creativity includes analytical descriptions of the components of creative
experience, the personal characteristics of creative individuals, and the distinguishing
features of creative solutions. From the participants' reports, it was possible to extract
eleven types of improved functioning that occurred during the session.5
(Those interested
in the relationship of these aspects to current research and theory on creativity can refer
to the detailed technical discussion in Harman, McKim, et al., 1966).
These ways, along with representative quotations from the subjects' reports, are as
follows:

1. Low inhibition and anxiety
"There was no fear, no worry, no sense of reputation and competition, no envy, none of
these things which in varying degrees have always been present in my work."
"A lowered sense of personal danger; I don't feel threatened anymore, and there is no
feeling of my reputation being at stake."
"Although doing well on these problems would be fine, failure to get ahead on theit?1
would have been threatening. However, as it turned out, on this afternoon the normal
blocks in the way of progress seemed to be absent."

2. Capacity to restructure problem in a larger context
"Looking at the same problem with [psychedelic] materials, I was able to consider it in a
much more basic way, because I could form and keep in mind a much broader picture."
"I could handle two or three different ideas at the same time and keep track of each."
"Normally I would overlook many more trivial points for the sake of expediency, but
under the drug, time seemed unimportant. I faced every possible questionable issue
square in the face."
"Ability to start from the broadest general basis in the beginning."
"I returned to the original problem.... I tried, I think consciously, to think of the
problem in its totality, rather than through the devices I had used before."

3. Enhanced fluency and flexibility of ideation
"I began to work fast, almost feverishly, to keep up with the flow of ideas."
"I began to draw ...my senses could not keep up with my images ...my hand was not
fast enough ...my eyes were not keen enough.... I was impatient to record the picture (it
has not faded one particle). I worked at a pace I would not have thought I was capable
of."
"I was very impressed with the ease with which ideas appeared (it was virtually as if
the world is made of ideas, and so it is only necessary to examine any part of the world to
get an idea). I also got the feeling that creativity is an active process in which you limit
yourself and have an objective, so there is a focus about which ideas can cluster and
relate."
"I dismissed the original idea entirely, and started to approach the graphic problem in a
radically different way. That was when things started to happen. All kinds of different
possibilities came to mind...."
"And the feeling during this period of profuse production was one of joy and
exuberance.... It was the pure fun of doing, inventing, creating, and playing."

4. Heightened capacity for visual imagery and fantasy
"Was able to move imaginary parts in relation to each other." 132
"It was the non-specific fantasy that triggered the idea."
"The next insight came as an image of an oyster shell, with the mother-of-pearl shining
in different colors. I translated that in the idea of an interferometer—two layers separated
by a gap equal to the wavelength it is desired to reflect."
"As soon as I began to visualize the problem, one possibility immediately occurred. A
few problems with that concept occurred, which seemed to solve themselves rather
quickly.... Visualizing the required cross section was instantaneous."
"Somewhere along in here, I began to see an image of the circuit. The gates themselves
were little silver cones linked together by lines. I watched the circuit flipping through its
paces...."
"I began visualizing all the properties known to me that a photon possesses and
attempted to make a model for a photon.... The photon was comprised of an electron and
a positron cloud moving together in an intermeshed synchronized helical orbit.... This
model was reduced for visualizing purposes to a black-and-white ball propagating in a
screwlike fashion through space. I kept putting the model through all sorts of known
tests."

5. Increased ability to concentrate
"Was able to shut out virtually all distracting influences."
"I was easily able to follow a train of thought to a conclusion where normally I would
have been distracted many times."
"I was impressed with the intensity of concentration, the forcefulness and exuberance
with which I could proceed toward the solution."
"I considered the process of photoconductivity.... I kept asking myself, 'What is light?
and subsequently, 'What is a photon?' The latter question I repeated to myself several
hundred times till it was being said automatically in synchronism with each breath. I
probably never in my life pressured myself as intently with a question as I did this one."
"It is hard to estimate how long this problem might have taken without the psychedelic
agent, but it was the type of problem that might never have been solved. It would have
taken a great deal of effort and racking of the brains to arrive at what seemed to com*?3
more easily during the session."

6. Heightened empathy with external processes and objects
"...the sense of the problem as a living thing that is growing toward its inherent
solution."
"First I somehow considered being the needle and being bounced around in the
groove."
"I spent a productive period ...climbing down on my retina, walking around and
thinking about certain problems relating to the mechanism of vision."
"Ability to grasp the problem in its entirety, to 'dive' into it without reservations,
almost like becoming the problem."
"Awareness of the problem itself rather than the T that is trying to solve it."

7. Heightened empathy with people
"It was also felt that group performance was affected in ...subtle ways. This may be
evidence that some sort of group action was going on all the time."
"Only at intervals did I become aware of the music. Sometimes, when I felt the other
guys listening to it, it was a physical feeling of them listening to it."
"Sometimes we even had the feeling of having the same thoughts or ideas."

8. Subconscious data more accessible
"...brought about almost total recall of a course that I had had in thermodynamics;
something that I had never given any thought about in years."
"I was in my early teens and wandering through the gardens where I actually grew up. I
felt all my prior emotions in relation to my surroundings."

9. Association of dissimilar ideas
"I had earlier devised an arrangement for beam steering on the two-mile accelerator
which reduced the amount of hardware necessary by a factor of two.... Two weeks ago it
was pointed out to me that this scheme would steer the beam into the wall and therefore
was unacceptable. During the session, I looked at the schematic and asked myself how
could we retain the factor of two but avoid steering into the wall. Again a flash of
inspiration, in which I thought of the word "alternate.' I followed this to its logical
conclusion, which was to alternate polarities sector by sector so the steering bias would
not add but cancel. I was extremely impressed with this solution and the way it came t$4
me."
"Most of the insights come by association."
"It was the last idea that I thought was remarkable because of the way in which it
developed. This idea was the result of a fantasy that occurred during Wagner.... [The
participant had earlier listened to Wagner's 'Ride of the Valkyries.'] I put down a line
which seemed to embody this.... I later made the handle which my sketches suggested
and it had exactly the quality I was looking for.... I was very amused at the ease with
which all of this was done."

10. Heightened motivation to obtain closure
"Had tremendous desire to obtain an elegant solution (the most for the least)."
"All known constraints about the problem were simultaneously imposed as I hunted for
possible solutions. It was like an analog computer whose output could not deviate from
what was desired and whose input was continually perturbed with the inclination toward
achieving the output."
"It was almost an awareness of the 'degree of perfection' of whatever I was doing."
"In what seemed like ten minutes, I had completed the problem, having what I
considered (and still consider) a classic solution."
11. Visualizing the completed solution
"I looked at the paper I was to draw on. I was completely blank. I knew that I would
work with a property three hundred feet square. I drew the property lines (at a scale of
one inch to forty feet), and I looked at the outlines. I was blank.... Suddenly I saw the
finished project. [The project was a shopping center specializing in arts and crafts.] I did
some quick calculations ...it would fit on the property and not only that ...it would meet
the cost and income requirements ...it would park enough cars ...it met all the
requirements. It was contemporary architecture with the richness of a cultural heritage ...
it used history and experience but did not copy it."
"I visualized the result I wanted and subsequently brought the variables into play which
could bring that result about. I had great visual (mental) perceptibility; I could imagine
what was wanted, needed, or not possible with almost no effort. I was amazed at m}35
idealism, my visual perception, and the rapidity with which I could operate."

Psychedelics have developed an unfair notoriety due to mass propaganda, improper dosage, and abuse alongside other things ( like alcohol/weed ). Imagine if one's ONLY experience with caffeine was at 2+ grams in a single day? That's what people taking 120mcg + trip doses of LSD are doing. The reason it's this way is because people think it's cool to trip balls and LSD is incredibly non-toxic so there's basically no risk of overdosing no matter how high you dose. The ideal dose for most people is 10-50mcg. Trip doses DO have their uses and shouldn't be avoided per se but I think they apply to the outstanding minority of cases.

Our goal here is restoring optimal health to our bodies, right? Most drugs mask the effects of a stressed, aging organism, but no more. Others provide a look at what optimal health is really like AND pave the way towards achieving it. This is all without serious adverse side effects which is the amazing bit.

 

[Such_Saturation]

μg?

 

[michael94]

post 115641 μg?

Yea I meant mcg

 

[DaveFoster]

It would be more the biological state of the person, and not necessarily the environment.

The environment influences biology, but different people exhibit different sensitivities to stimuli.

LSD is great for addiction, as is cypro. I wonder if there's anything even more effective.