The Political Subforum Is Unproductive

[Tarmander]

I have been participating in the political sub-forum for awhile now, and the more I read through the threads in there, the more I come to the conclusion that very little good happens in those threads.

Politics in today's world are dominated by appeasement. Whoever cries the loudest, and is willing to go to the farthest extreme gains political power. I speak mostly about the American system. This is probably because of the decline in objective values...but the point is, there is very little learning and true discussion in the political sub-forum. It has taken the form of appeasement politics with people vying to dominate instead of illuminate.

There are statements made, often unverifiable to anyone's satisfaction or life experience, followed by fighting with very little exploration. Eventually someone (cough cough two particular users) brings up Jews or Jesuits and the conspiracy theories start. The only way to understand these conspiracies is to go down the rabbit hole with that particular user, and even then, nothing gets done, no minds are changed, no new frontiers are covered. I think the energy of this forum should be put more towards Peat, and less towards these subjects. I am very tired of jews and jesuits getting into every GD thread, and I think others may be too.

I have started a poll with some options, if you have another I would be happy to add it. I think at the moment, either getting rid of it, or subdividing it so that the jews and jesuits can have their own area of discussion, along with feminism, trump, etc. would be best. No limit on any other ideas.

 

[cyclops]

I agree.

 

[goodandevil]

I do think there's a lot of evidence for jesuits, or at least the vatican. U.s. tax code and the treaty of paris, 1783, are two examples. Nonetheless, i agree the political forum should be closed. The ultimate solution is physiological anyway. Politics should be supressed, not ignored.

 

[CarbAppreciator]

I vote for splitting it into a (politics/election news forum), and an (alternate world view forum)

 

[x-ray peat]

I wonder why is it you just don’t avoid the political forums altogether if you are so bothered by it. These subjects do not come up in any of the health related threads so it would be very easy for you to not to have to deal with it.

But as one of your called out “cough cough particular users,” I would like to say that I try to make it a point to only bring up the Jesuits in response to something posted that is blatantly incorrect about the Jews or even anti-Semitic. There are a lot of people in the forum who have anti-Jewish beliefs and continually post them, so in the interest of truth I try to post the alternative view not usually seen.

With that said I would be just as happy to not have to deal with any of it, so if Charlie wants to ban all political discussion that is fine by me. It would also be fine by me to just ban discussion of the Jews and the Jesuits and allow other debates to go on.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

What do you mean today's politics are based on appeasement?

You saying that current day politics is bad and unobjective is the exact same thing people have been saying for what... Thousands of years? Just think of the Bush era of the United States, untruths and fervent sheepism was much more widespread then... In fact right now what we're seeing is the MOST objective time in politics, EVER. The masses behave the same as always, but the difference now then say, ancient Rome or the early 2000s, is that the intelligent ones have access to the internet.

Really, the truth is coming out, and there's genuine discussion. The old media establishments are crumbling, and simple people are commanding the time of millions with their videos., the world is literally being shaped by simple people on the internet. Not just alt-media, but meme magic, macro images, things of that nature.

It seems the only problem you have with the political subforum is that it's not going in the direction you want or like, not that it's bad. This is a pretty anti-mainstream forum, so expecting the politics section to stay within the box the media is trying to create seems a bit ridiculous. Do you understand what I'm saying? The politics section isn't the same as a school teacher talking with his students about politics (ie the only information received is from the media, thus the entire framework and perspective is ultimately fixed, the only difference in opinions comes down to emotion). No, this is about questioning everything.

About Jews, answer this: do you think White men control the world? Do you think that White privilege is a thing, that there's a vast conspiracy of White men oppressing every other class of humans? Because if you believe that, but find the idea of Jews owning a large part of the worlds wealth or power to been ridiculous, then you are in fact the ridiculous one. This is the viewpoint millions of people have and it's a joke. For instance that viewpoint is similar to the Left's position, they see Whites as owning the world in the same way many on this forum see Jews owning the world.

What you must understand is that when people say "Jews own the world", they don't mean all the Jews in the world are in some grand conspiracy with each other, that it's a million person conspiracy, no, what they mean is that many of those in power are Jewish.

And it's a veritable fact. I mean, there's no argument, there's nothing one can argue against with, it's like trying to argue that Trump isn't actually president. It's a fact that the largest financial institutions are owned by Jews, that Jews are extremely over-represented in politics, that all mainstream forms of media are owned by Jews (Hollywood, News, TV, music, etc), that the largest and most powerful organizations in the world are owned by Jews.

I would post some sources but there really is so much. Just google "Jews own everything world" and go to images.

I admit this and keep it in mind, but I don't care. It's just something interesting.

 

[michael94]

I vote that we close it all together. There are more Pros than Cons.

 

[burtlancast]

Nothing like politics to divide people up.

 

[Ideonaut]

I have been participating in the political sub-forum for awhile now, and the more I read through the threads in there, the more I come to the conclusion that very little good happens in those threads.

Politics in today's world are dominated by appeasement. Whoever cries the loudest, and is willing to go to the farthest extreme gains political power. I speak mostly about the American system. This is probably because of the decline in objective values...but the point is, there is very little learning and true discussion in the political sub-forum. It has taken the form of appeasement politics with people vying to dominate instead of illuminate.

There are statements made, often unverifiable to anyone's satisfaction or life experience, followed by fighting with very little exploration. Eventually someone (cough cough two particular users) brings up Jews or Jesuits and the conspiracy theories start. The only way to understand these conspiracies is to go down the rabbit hole with that particular user, and even then, nothing gets done, no minds are changed, no new frontiers are covered. I think the energy of this forum should be put more towards Peat, and less towards these subjects. I am very tired of jews and jesuits getting into every GD thread, and I think others may be too.



I have started a poll with some options, if you have another I would be happy to add it. I think at the moment, either getting rid of it, or subdividing it so that the jews and jesuits can have their own area of discussion, along with feminism, trump, etc. would be best. No limit on any other ideas.

Oh, so you're with the CIA, wanting to shut down "comspiracy theories"--"don't look there!" If you don't like a thread just don't go there. That would be the free speech attitude. It is NOT TRUE that "jews and jesuits get into every GD thread". You've lost contact with reality, Tarmander.

 

[Tarmander]

What do you mean today's politics are based on appeasement?

You saying that current day politics is bad and unobjective is the exact same thing people have been saying for what... Thousands of years? Just think of the Bush era of the United States, untruths and fervent sheepism was much more widespread then... In fact right now what we're seeing is the MOST objective time in politics, EVER. The masses behave the same as always, but the difference now then say, ancient Rome or the early 2000s, is that the intelligent ones have access to the internet.

Really, the truth is coming out, and there's genuine discussion. The old media establishments are crumbling, and simple people are commanding the time of millions with their videos., the world is literally being shaped by simple people on the internet. Not just alt-media, but meme magic, macro images, things of that nature.

It seems the only problem you have with the political subforum is that it's not going in the direction you want or like, not that it's bad. This is a pretty anti-mainstream forum, so expecting the politics section to stay within the box the media is trying to create seems a bit ridiculous. Do you understand what I'm saying? The politics section isn't the same as a school teacher talking with his students about politics (ie the only information received is from the media, thus the entire framework and perspective is ultimately fixed, the only difference in opinions comes down to emotion). No, this is about questioning everything.

About Jews, answer this: do you think White men control the world? Do you think that White privilege is a thing, that there's a vast conspiracy of White men oppressing every other class of humans? Because if you believe that, but find the idea of Jews owning a large part of the worlds wealth or power to been ridiculous, then you are in fact the ridiculous one. This is the viewpoint millions of people have and it's a joke. For instance that viewpoint is similar to the Left's position, they see Whites as owning the world in the same way many on this forum see Jews owning the world.

What you must understand is that when people say "Jews own the world", they don't mean all the Jews in the world are in some grand conspiracy with each other, that it's a million person conspiracy, no, what they mean is that many of those in power are Jewish.

And it's a veritable fact. I mean, there's no argument, there's nothing one can argue against with, it's like trying to argue that Trump isn't actually president. It's a fact that the largest financial institutions are owned by Jews, that Jews are extremely over-represented in politics, that all mainstream forms of media are owned by Jews (Hollywood, News, TV, music, etc), that the largest and most powerful organizations in the world are owned by Jews.

I would post some sources but there really is so much. Just google "Jews own everything world" and go to images.

I admit this and keep it in mind, but I don't care. It's just something interesting.

I agree with you in some ways. I keep up with politics in my life and see some of the things you are talking about. However you did not address the unproductive aspect. I do not think everything on the political forum is untrue, but unproductive. This is why I added changing the forum structure to the poll. Politics can be a productive discussion point, but at the moment it is squabbling and almost entirely negative. It can be structured to be positive. I think at the moment, the political subforum was added as an afterthought, perhaps to throw topics that touched it, somewhere they would not disturb the rest of the forum. After Trump was elected, the political subsection on this forum really started to get attention and energy directed towards it. That has not stopped. So the political subsection should either be organized in a way that at least a chance of a productive discussion can emerge, or dissolved.

I wonder why is it you just don’t avoid the political forums altogether if you are so bothered by it. These subjects do not come up in any of the health related threads so it would be very easy for you to not to have to deal with it.

But as one of your called out “cough cough particular users,” I would like to say that I try to make it a point to only bring up the Jesuits in response to something posted that is blatantly incorrect about the Jews or even anti-Semitic. There are a lot of people in the forum who have anti-Jewish beliefs and continually post them, so in the interest of truth I try to post the alternative view not usually seen.

With that said I would be just as happy to not have to deal with any of it, so if Charlie wants to ban all political discussion that is fine by me. It would also be fine by me to just ban discussion of the Jews and the Jesuits and allow other debates to go on.

Thank you! I enjoy reading your posts when they do not become repetitive. Perhaps if the anti jewish/antijesuit beliefs stop, you may feel no need to start on it either. I really worry that when people come to the forum and see in the "most recent posts" four subjects on politics and jews, they may run. I believe I would have run if that had been the case when I first came here....kind of like...why on earth is RPF obsessed with jesuits and politics?

Oh, so you're with the CIA, wanting to shut down "comspiracy theories"--"don't look there!" If you don't like a thread just don't go there. That would be the free speech attitude. It is NOT TRUE that "jews and jesuits get into every GD thread". You've lost contact with reality, Tarmander.

This is not my attempt to shut down free speech. If we all got in an unstructured group, and the loudest among us were the only ones heard...then the strongest...it would not be a good public forum for debate, even if free speech was acknowledged. The political subforum is a mob of subjects with little rhyme or reason other then the post topic. Every Jordan Peterson topic has devolved into name calling and conspiracy theories. Topics on feminism devolve into the same. I could go on. I argue for either organization or dissolution. Perhaps it could be tied into aspects of politics that Peat describes ONLY. Or have multiple sub-forums like we do in other parts of the forum.

 

[dfspcc20]

If only there was an option to hide certain subforums and threads...

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

I second everything you said tarmander. I watch the news so I can have an informed and up to date opinion on politics and current events. So when people start going off the rails and talking about jew this and jesuit that, I have no idea what to make of it.
Why can't people just discuss what's on TV? It's so annoying...

 

[BigYellowLemon]

@Tarmander

How would you define productive?

This forum is full of people who will constaby disagree. That's not necessarily a bad thing. And I wouldn't define productive as meaning everybody getting along, relations has nothing to do with it.

To me, productive means novel and logical ideas are being born from debate. Like for instance people talking back and forth about their opinions on something politicial in nature, and having their ideas synthesize. Or alternatively, someone crushing an opponent in debate and proving a wrong idea wrong (which is a great thing, we need the wrong ideas destroyed or challenged at least).

The only thing I can see being unproductive is when people aren't arguing with facts but feelings. Or will just repeatedly throw logical fallacy after fallacy and think they're the ones in the right. That happens a lot but not just in the political forum but all foruns. For instance people will invoke Peats name instead of just debating with logic.

That's the obly thing that annoys me, when someone just won't even engage in the debate, won't engage with logic, but will just ad hominem and misdirect. Hopefully it's as clear to everyone viewing the arguments as it is clear to me how wrong those people are.

@pimpnamedraypeat hahahah I hope you're being sarcastic

 

[kyle]

Just moderate the threads and ban whoever doesn't share your personal views.

 

[Tarmander]

@Tarmander

How would you define productive?

This forum is full of people who will constaby disagree. That's not necessarily a bad thing. And I wouldn't define productive as meaning everybody getting along, relations has nothing to do with it.

To me, productive means novel and logical ideas are being born from debate. Like for instance people talking back and forth about their opinions on something politicial in nature, and having their ideas synthesize. Or alternatively, someone crushing an opponent in debate and proving a wrong idea wrong (which is a great thing, we need the wrong ideas destroyed or challenged at least).

The only thing I can see being unproductive is when people aren't arguing with facts but feelings. Or will just repeatedly throw logical fallacy after fallacy and think they're the ones in the right. That happens a lot but not just in the political forum but all foruns. For instance people will invoke Peats name instead of just debating with logic.

That's the obly thing that annoys me, when someone just won't even engage in the debate, won't engage with logic, but will just ad hominem and misdirect. Hopefully it's as clear to everyone viewing the arguments as it is clear to me how wrong those people are.

@pimpnamedraypeat hahahah I hope you're being sarcastic

That is a good question, and something we should discuss. I was hoping that this thread would not also devolve, but might have an active discussion.

I think you have defined unproductive well. Most of the things you call unproductive are on frank display here in Politics. There is quite a bit of not debating with logic, using ad hominems, and misdirection.

Productivity is defined in my mind by a search for truth. I will clarify that. Disagreements, shutting down bad arguments, all of what you said is correct in regards to "productive." Look for example at a log thread, or a thread where someone is asking for help with blood work, or something like that. These threads are for the most part productive. They produce questions and answers that lead to an objective truth that this person asking did not have before. You can tell they are productive because they lack sarcasm, they are serious and searching, they are honest and digging, they are uncomfortable and require change, and people ask questions and formulate unique answers. Not that there is anything wrong with sarcasm, or being non-serious...but them being absent is a sign of health, truth, and productivity.

Now look at the political subforum, in fact, just look at this thread. Look at the amount of sarcastic remarks already present, look at the nihilism and fatalism. This thread is already setting up its dive into name calling and ridiculousness. Other then you, no one has brought up a question about productivity, and then contributed a decent amount of time in outlining what you see as productive. No one is seeking.

People come in, they drop some sarcastic bomb designed to make me, or the ideas here, look frivolous, and not worth discussing. I have already been called a tyrant looking to suppress free speech and govern by my views alone, a CIA agent lost from reality, and trust me, it will get worse as the jackals come out. There is a schoolyard, soy boy, teenage angsty "none of it matters and neither do you," attitude that pervades this subforum, and it can be, and should be, changed for the better.

I bring this up because I happen to care about RPF. I like it here. I want the discussion to stay high quality. For it to be productive and high quality, the participants must treat their words and topics of conversations seriously, as if they can change lives and improve things. The political subforum gets bogged down in abstractions, conspiracy theories, and arguments that go round and round. Perhaps dividing up the forum into parts would bring about a refocusing that could be truth seeking. Or just close it as the poll suggests.

The poll above has more votes to close then anything else. I had a hunch that there were people who would like to discuss some of these subjects, but stay away because of how toxic it can get. The fact that there are all these votes for closing or changing the subforum I take as proof of concept that the unproductive nihilism/conspiracy BS is driving people away. We can do better.

 

[x-ray peat]

In fact right now what we're seeing is the MOST objective time in politics, EVER. The masses behave the same as always, but the difference now then say, ancient Rome or the early 2000s, is that the intelligent ones have access to the internet..

I would post some sources but there really is so much. Just google "Jews own everything world" and go to images.

Sorry to inform you but the Internet was built by the Government and has never left their ultimate control. The Internet is called a "net" or a "web" for a reason; every search, post, and message is recorded and analyzed. It is a very clever form of mass surveillance made possible with the willing help of those being surveilled. Google as well as many of the other major Internet companies were funded with CIA seed money for a reason and that reason was not to let you discover who runs the world in one Google search.

The reason you think the Jews run the world is because it is exactly what the real rulers want you to think. The Internet has only made the job of scapegoating them all that much easier. No need to print out pamphlets or hang up posters for the peasants to see. If the Jews really controlled the world then just about every video or website about conspiracies would not be about Jews but about some other minority to scapegoat.

And by the way everyone of your supposed veritable facts is completely untrue. These are just Big Lies repeated over and over until the unthinking believe it.

 

[goodandevil]

I second everything you said tarmander. I watch the news so I can have an informed and up to date opinion on politics and current events. So when people start going off the rails and talking about jew this and jesuit that, I have no idea what to make of it.
Why can't people just discuss what's on TV? It's so annoying...

Yes, let's let t.v. dictate the discussion. Great idea.

 

[goodandevil]

We're ****88 either way.

 

[lvysaur]

I wonder why is it you just don’t avoid the political forums altogether if you are so bothered by it. These subjects do not come up in any of the health related threads so it would be very easy for you to not to have to deal with it.

lmfao

 

[cats]

I think the most important point to consider is this: Newcomers to the forum who don't know much or anything about Peat are very likely to see some of the threads in the political subforum while exploring the site. If they disagree with the things that are being discussed there (and they probably will) then they may conclude that the entire forum is populated by kooks* and is not worth their time. They'll never bother with the forum again, never taking those necessary first steps to understand the value of the Peaty discussions that take place on this site. For the sake of the health of the people who have not yet discovered this forum and Peat's work, the political discussions should be stopped or moved to a different website.

*I'm not accusing anyone of being a kook. I'm saying that this is the impression some people will get.