My body my choice , abortions , vaccines, end of life?

[InChristAlone]

A person isn't defined by location or how big or small you are. If a 13 week old fetus isn't a person what makes it a person at 16 weeks? Having a bigger brain? It's so ridiculous.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Im not sure there’s even any evidence for there being a soul tbh they’d prolly start there. I myself see a soul as a good word to describe someone’s emotional/mental state.

I feel like most of the controversy surrounding abortion is in definitions of personhood. Pro-lifers believe it’s right at the moment of conception, whereas pro-choicers will have various lines at which point they see the immature life form having personhood. The problem is even if it were codified into law saying that say abortions before 16/24 weeks are ok because the developing life is not a person yet a pro-lifer won’t be happy because of the idea that personhood begins at the moment of conception.

The word personhood is an equivocal term subject to interpretation and manipulation. A more honest term would be human. When does a human begin? For empirical evidence we could look to other life forms. When does a plant begin? When it germinates or when it breaks the soil's surface? I think an honest answer is when it germinates. A bean sprout is just as much a plant as its emerged (from the soil) form is. Nothing was added except growth factors. It's the same with humans.

 

[InChristAlone]

I've heard all the arguments pro-abortionists make. One of the worst ones is saying a fetus isn't a person unless it's a wanted fetus. Suddenly when the baby is wanted it becomes special. When it isn't wanted it has no right to life. Why not just admit you want to murder your unborn?

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

I've heard all the arguments pro-abortionists make. One of the worst ones is saying a fetus isn't a person unless it's a wanted fetus. Suddenly when the baby is wanted it becomes special. When it isn't wanted it has no right to life. Why not just admit you want to murder your unborn?

Well this is the stupidest arguenent I have ever heard. It is like saying a man isn’t a man unless he has a girlfriend.

 

[Perry Staltic]

I've heard all the arguments pro-abortionists make. One of the worst ones is saying a fetus isn't a person unless it's a wanted fetus. Suddenly when the baby is wanted it becomes special. When it isn't wanted it has no right to life. Why not just admit you want to murder your unborn?

I think for some people, like those who view a fetus as a literal parasite, they do want to murder their unborn. But for most, I think, it is a matter of expediency, ie, they don't want a baby to murder their lifestyle.

 

[Runenight201]

If I were a 4 week lil bean sprout and my mother was single living in poverty, I’d rather her abort me so that she could get herself out of that situation so that if she were to have another child my sibling would be raised in a much more stable and supportive environment.

 

[Perry Staltic]

If I were a 4 week lil bean sprout and my mother was single living in poverty, I’d rather her abort me so that she could get herself out of that situation so that if she were to have another child my sibling would be raised in a much more stable and supportive environment.

Stability/supportiveness and poverty are not mutually exclusive. Lots of poor people have had great and meaningful lives, and some have accomplished great things and many have risen out of poverty. So it's clear, abortion to you is a lifestyle choice, ie, life's not worth living if lifestyle is low.

 

[InChristAlone]

If I were a 4 week lil bean sprout and my mother was single living in poverty, I’d rather her abort me so that she could get herself out of that situation so that if she were to have another child my sibling would be raised in a much more stable and supportive environment.

Abortion can cause infertility. I can think one case I know of personally where she had an abortion as a young adult then when they wanted a baby they never could conceive. I hate it that people think it's without risk. That's it's just an easy thing that causes no harm to the Mom. It can cause psychological harm as well.

 

[Runenight201]

Stability/supportiveness and poverty are not mutually exclusive. Lots of poor people have had great and meaningful lives, and some have accomplished great things and many have risen out of poverty. So it's clear, abortion to you is a lifestyle choice, ie, life's not worth living if lifestyle is low.

Statistically speaking you’re more likely to have a life full of suffering and hardship, wanting, gnashing of teeth, disease, addiction, abuse, lower life outcomes, etc if you are poor. Just cuz some poor people have managed to against all odds bring their existence into a good one doesn’t mean that it’s the usual case for the majority of poverty stricken individuals.

Yes I would agree with your last point life is good only when the circumstances are good. We should be striving to make the circumstances good for everyone, which is the aim of a progressing society, but if the existence is full of pain and suffering with no out, then no it is not worth it.

 

[Runenight201]

Abortion can cause infertility. I can think one case I know of personally where she had an abortion as a young adult then when they wanted a baby they never could conceive. I hate it that people think it's without risk. That's it's just an easy thing that causes no harm to the Mom. It can cause psychological harm as well.

And pregnancy can kill the mother. To some yes abortion is a traumatic experience. But I’d rather my mother go through that then raise me in an environment where I’m more likely than not end up in a gang/addicted/violent/poor/etc and also worsen her chance of escaping that situation.

 

[InChristAlone]

And pregnancy can kill the mother. To some yes abortion is a traumatic experience. But I’d rather my mother go through that then raise me in an environment where I’m more likely than not end up in a gang/addicted/violent/poor/etc and also worsen her chance of escaping that situation.

But we don't get to choose our circumstances we are born into so you don't have any say in what your Mom will do. Are you then saying that you would hate your Mom if she didn't abort you? The whole line of thinking is really very dark. And not surprising if you don't believe in an afterlife, then morality is subjective, no one can say you are wrong for having your own truth even if you believe we need to kill off all the down syndrome babies or whatever it is that you believe. Subjective truth and subjective morality and post modernism is a cancer to society. The most arrogant philosophy that ever existed.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Sure, but at a certain point when the probability of there being anything like an Abrahamic god becomes 1/10^whatever, an agnostic becomes much closer to an atheist than a theist.

Norm MacDonald had the perfect insight for this. He always talks about Atheists picking the god they don't want to believe in. Why does the creator have to be "like the Abrahamic god?" Just because there isn't a man up in the clouds doesn't mean there isn't a creator. There are many other religious and spiritual texts out there, and many other religious and spiritual beliefs.

Call it what you want, but based on any objective evidence it’s much more realistic to operate under the framework that there isn’t rather than there is, and calling someone agnostic because, “well maybe there could potentially be a chance” is just being nice to the religious folk, I’d consider them atheist because for all intents and purposes they are operating as if there isn’t.

Welp, you are redefining words. Atheist means you don't believe in ANY gods. They say 0%. Agnostic means you aren't sure. That could be anywhere from 0.0000001% to 99.9999999%. I guess you could take the lowest level agnostics and call them atheists, but there are a lot the probably genuinely don't know.

And what "objective evidence" are you possibly looking at?

 

[tankasnowgod]

If I were a 4 week lil bean sprout and my mother was single living in poverty, I’d rather her abort me so that she could get herself out of that situation so that if she were to have another child my sibling would be raised in a much more stable and supportive environment.

It's amazing that you put such a low value on your own life that you would give it up just so some accounting ledgers would look better. Especially when there are other options out there, like surrendering your baby or adoption.

I recently heard Gary Viekler(sp?) on the Nerdrotic channel talk about how he loves his two mothers on Mothers Day. He loves his adoptive mom for raising him, and he loves his birth mom for, in his words, "having the courage to go through with the pregnancy." She was 16, the father had split, she was apparently afraid, poor, and alone. He was born in a Salvation Army Hospital for unwed mothers. He apparently knows both now, and just that brief explanation makes it easy to see it must have been a tough situation for his birth mom.

 

[Perry Staltic]

Statistically speaking you’re more likely to have a life full of suffering and hardship, wanting, gnashing of teeth, disease, addiction, abuse, lower life outcomes, etc if you are poor. Just cuz some poor people have managed to against all odds bring their existence into a good one doesn’t mean that it’s the usual case for the majority of poverty stricken individuals.

Now do people who aren't poor who lead empty lives full of suffering and the things you mentioned. The west is full of them.

 

[Jonk]

He always talks about Atheists picking the god they don't want to believe in.

I feel this to be accurate. I used to do that too so I'm not judging anyone. But I suspect most atheists underestimates the rationale in believing in the existence of God.

 

[area51puy]

10-year-old girl denied abortion in Ohio

A 10-year-old girl was denied an abortion in Ohio after the Supreme Court ruled last week that it was overturning Roe v. Wade, demonstrating the tangible impacts that the high court’s decision is h…

thehill.com

Should we put a 10 year old rape victim through a pregnancy?
Or save this life?

So should we force this ten year old to have a baby?

 

[area51puy]

That last question was a tough one no one could answer.
What about this question.
you are in a fertility clinic when the fire alarm goes off. Before you escape, you have the option to save either a five-year-old child who is pleading for help, or a container of 1000 viable human embryos.

“Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos?“

 

[aniciete]

That last question was a tough one no one could answer.
What about this question.
you are in a fertility clinic when the fire alarm goes off. Before you escape, you have the option to save either a five-year-old child who is pleading for help, or a container of 1000 viable human embryos.

“Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos?“

What a stupid question. Seek help..

 

[area51puy]

What a stupid question. Seek help..

Why is it a stupid question? Should we force 10 year old rape victims to have a baby and would you save a 1000 viable embryos or a 5 year old child.

 

[Rinse & rePeat]

That last question was a tough one no one could answer.
What about this question.
you are in a fertility clinic when the fire alarm goes off. Before you escape, you have the option to save either a five-year-old child who is pleading for help, or a container of 1000 viable human embryos.

“Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos?“

The child of course!