My body my choice , abortions , vaccines, end of life?

[Perry Staltic]

For what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Looks like nobody's mind is going to be changing on this thread anytime soon!

That's because the body of a human being growing inside of a woman's body is not her body. A woman has the right to make unilateral decisions regarding her own body, but not anyone else's in regards to life. So she has the right to take her own life, but not the life of anyone else.

 

[Dave Clark]

Interesting that in all but about maybe ten states, euthanasia is illegal, so no my-body-my-choice in most of the country regarding your own body.

 

[Dean]

You make no sense, the republicans have been taking billions of dollars from the elites for 50 years. You can’t be this dumb. When are people going to wake a realize the same people from Wall Street , big pharma, military industrial complex , and big tech are donating to both democratic and republicans candidates. This ***t we see between democratic politicians and republicans politicians is for show. I bet you think WWE is real. Lol

This is why America is turning into a crap country because republicans think republicans politicians are on their side and democrats are evil. And democrats think democratic politicians are on their side and republicans are evil.

It’s pretty sad to see people on this forum not be able to see through it. They are on the same team. Like George Carlin said it’s a big club and you ain’t in it.

You're right, of course, about both parties being captive to the same ultimate interest(s).

The distinction worth pointing out is though that the majority base of the Democrat party, comprised of the (white) professional/management/administrative/bureaucratic class, are the ones that more directly enable the elite agenda because they (have) gained so much (in material and status) from promoting and protecting it. The same characteristics that have enabled them to climb the corporate ladder, rise to the top of their profession, be promoted up the ranks of the bureaucracy are the ones that attract them to the prospect of being a privileged prole in a centralized technocratic authoritarianism.

As long as they can continue to believe their privilege will continue to be granted (to them), they will continue to do the bidding. It's hard to imagine an en masse change of mind and heart by people who have been so richly rewarded for being incurious, displaying a maniacal capacity for obtuseness, a gift for the shallowest and basest form of aggrandizement (networking) ever known to man, and an allegiance to the most meaningless religious beliefs (materialism, scientism, "progressism"-change simply for the sake of change) imaginable.

You see a few coming to their senses(if you read the comments after Matt Taibbi articles, for instance). But, it will be far too few, far too late.

There's plenty to criticize the Republican base, including the MAGA Trumpists, for as well but that's low hanging fruit, not going to be received well here and, as I've stated, they aren't at the fulcrum of where it's all being made to happen anyway

 

[tankasnowgod]

That is propaganda. No 10 year old or anyone was denied an abortion because of the Scotus ruling. All that ruling did was leave the issue up to the states. The State of Ohio did that based on whatever laws they had in place before.. because I don't think anyone has had time to change any. Maybe the article tells the whole story. Most people only read headlines, which is what the media counts on.

Well, it looks like some states did call special sessions and pass various laws on abortion in the past week or so.

Still, I do tend to agree it's propaganda, and I have questions. Like, how did The Hill and other media outlets get so many details about this 10 year old girl in such a sensitive case? From Law Enforcement Officers? Or a spokesman for the family?

It would seem it would be either the "child abuse doctor" in Ohio, or Dr. Caitlyn Bernard (mentioned by name) in Indiana. Why would they be leaking details of a case like this (if true) to the media? It certainly reeks of an agenda.

Plus, the articles written about this make it seem like 10 year olds are getting abortions every day, and it's a completely routine. The reality is that it would be very rare, and I could see only a handful of doctors specializing in this in the entire country. There is always going to be a risk with this procedure of permanent damage to the woman's reproductive system, and there I would think there would be other concerns operating on a girl this young.

 

[area51puy]

You're right, of course, about both parties being captive to the same ultimate interest(s).

The distinction worth pointing out is though that the majority base of the Democrat party, comprised of the (white) professional/management/administrative/bureaucratic class, are the ones that more directly enable the elite agenda because they (have) gained so much (in material and status) from promoting and protecting it. The same characteristics that have enabled them to climb the corporate ladder, rise to the top of their profession, be promoted up the ranks of the bureaucracy are the ones that attract them to the prospect of being a privileged prole in a centralized technocratic authoritarianism.

As long as they can continue to believe their privilege will continue to be granted (to them), they will continue to do the bidding. It's hard to imagine an en masse change of mind and heart by people who have been so richly rewarded for being incurious, displaying a maniacal capacity for obtuseness, a gift for the shallowest and basest form of aggrandizement (networking) ever known to man, and an allegiance to the most meaningless religious beliefs (materialism, scientism, "progressism"-change simply for the sake of change) imaginable.

You see a few coming to their senses(if you read the comments after Matt Taibbi articles, for instance). But, it will be far too few, far too late.

There's plenty to criticize the Republican base, including the MAGA Trumpists, for as well but that's low hanging fruit, not going to be received well here and, as I've stated, they aren't at the fulcrum of where it's all being made to happen anyway

What we are seeing now is the result of the success of Bernie sanders and Donald Trump and the elites scrambling with social issues to distract the public.

The Republican Party hated Donald trump. The Republican Party and Nixon used the southern strategy after LBJ sign the civil rights act along with god guns abortion to get southern democrats to vote for Republican candidate that did nothing but give money and power to the elites. The used right wing radio and Fox News to brain wash people on social issues so that they would give more power to the elites.

Then the conman Trump who was pro abortion and registered democratic in the 90’s used the rightwing playbook and excited the base and Trump essentially took over the Republican Party base and every step of the way during the Republican primary the Republican Party tried to take him down.

The bush Cheney faction and big money of the Republican Party saw their party taken over by trump. They want their party back but they also want to keep the new blood that trump has brought in to the gop. So they teamed up with corporate democrats to try to take trump down.
So behind the scenes their money and tactics were used on trump , but publicly they acted as if they were on his side.

The corporate democrats saw the success Bernie had and who almost took down Hillary with his economic messages about the middle class and not taking money from the elites and corporations and wanting a return to the new deal economic FDR put in after the Great Depression which gave power to the workers and created the largest middle class in the history of the world and then Regan , Bush, Clinton slowly dismantled it. So to get these new progressive democrats who were pushing for economic change , taking money out of politics, they used social media platforms like the gop used Fox News and rightwing radio to get democrats to focus exclusively on social issues.

This is a class war. WWE is not real!!! The democrats and republicans have the same donors. Like George Carlin said they only give you the elusion of choice. How did Americans become this stupid.

Follow the money!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are payed by the same people!!!!!!!

Honestly I thought people on this forum would be able see through this system and realize they are actors playing politicians on both side and even though a politicians gives lip service to your social issue you back , they are ultimately scamming you and only servicing the elites of the world. It’s a big club and you ain’t in it. But they are good at lip service so you think one side is.

 

[Dean]

What we are seeing now is the result of the success of Bernie sanders and Donald Trump and the elites scrambling with social issues to distract the public.

The Republican Party hated Donald trump. The Republican Party and Nixon used the southern strategy after LBJ sign the civil rights act along with god guns abortion to get southern democrats to vote for Republican candidate that did nothing but give money and power to the elites. The used right wing radio and Fox News to brain wash people on social issues so that they would give more power to the elites.

Then the conman Trump who was pro abortion and registered democratic in the 90’s used the rightwing playbook and excited the base and Trump essentially took over the Republican Party base and every step of the way during the Republican primary the Republican Party tried to take him down.

The bush Cheney faction and big money of the Republican Party saw their party taken over by trump. They want their party back but they also want to keep the new blood that trump has brought in to the gop. So they teamed up with corporate democrats to try to take trump down.
So behind the scenes their money and tactics were used on trump , but publicly they acted as if they were on his side.

The corporate democrats saw the success Bernie had and who almost took down Hillary with his economic messages about the middle class and not taking money from the elites and corporations and wanting a return to the new deal economic FDR put in after the Great Depression which gave power to the workers and created the largest middle class in the history of the world and then Regan , Bush, Clinton slowly dismantled it. So to get these new progressive democrats who were pushing for economic change , taking money out of politics, they used social media platforms like the gop used Fox News and rightwing radio to get democrats to focus exclusively on social issues.

This is a class war. WWE is not real!!! The democrats and republicans have the same donors. Like George Carlin said they only give you the elusion of choice. How did Americans become this stupid.

Follow the money!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are payed by the same people!!!!!!!

Honestly I thought people on this forum would be able see through this system and realize they are actors playing politicians on both side and even though a politicians gives lip service to your social issue you back , they are ultimately scamming you and only servicing the elites of the world. It’s a big club and you ain’t in it. But they are good at lip service so you think one side is.

The class- based disaffection you speak of within both parties is real. And the racial/social/cultural wedge between the two disaffected groups is the real roadblock to any transcending, "out of the box" challenge to the elite establishment. The corruption of the two party duopoly and the lock-step duplicity of the professional/managerial/administrative/bureaucratic class codifies it.

The financial class and what used to be called the "country club Republicans" may have and may still support Trump now but when push comes to shove they will be with the establishment in order (to try) and protect what's there's. They have as much contempt for the working class as the aforementioned "water-carrier" class.

As for Trump, it is bewildering here to see everyone and their mother described as controlled opposition, but him. He who is the most obvious candidate. He has coaxed the white working class out onto the plank to serve as the fall guys for why the democracy experiment has to end. It's hard to imagine anyone accomplishing more in that regard in such a short period of time. Jeff Zucker too has earned his retirement well.

 

[bk_]

Examine the spirit behind the issues:

Abortion rights:
1. Heavily pushed by eugenics (e.g. Margaret Sanger) for population control
2. Profits for private clinics, selling parts to pharmaceuticals
3. Racism, particularly reduction of black American (see writings and speeches of the eugenics society of the early 20th century)

Forced vaccination:
1. Massive profits
2. Eugenics 2.0
3. Control

Now you have the masses divided based on talking points, rather than pulling away the curtain to see the who and the why.

 

[InChristAlone]

Examine the spirit behind the issues:

Abortion rights:
1. Heavily pushed by eugenics (e.g. Margaret Sanger) for population control
2. Profits for private clinics, selling parts to pharmaceuticals
3. Racism, particularly reduction of black American (see writings and speeches of the eugenics society of the early 20th century)

Forced vaccination:
1. Massive profits
2. Eugenics 2.0
3. Control

Now you have the masses divided based on talking points, rather than pulling away the curtain to see the who and the why.

 

[Sitaruîm]

People are idiots, the left says my body my choice and you say what about vaccines and their mind starts spinning.

A person in the right say the government can’t tell what to do with my body about vaccines, and then you bring up abortions and their minds start spinning.

Ultimately this is just a wedge issue to gain power by the elites. But vaccines and access to abortions have profound effects on peoples lives.

Discounting cases of rape, proven danger to the mother, or disability of the baby, where I do support abortion; becoming pregnant is ultimately a conscious decision, even if unintended. Because women know that their behavior might lead to pregnancy unless they act responsibly and respect how their body functions.

In the vast majority of pregnancies, it was the woman's choice to do as she pleased with her body, and the result was pregnancy. No one ever coerced her to have intercourse with anybody, so depriving them of an "abortion as contraceptive" doesn't violate the "my body, my choice" slogan.

However, the government bullying the populace to get the jab, getting people fired, etc is more akin to the government raping women and then forcing them to raise the child.

 

[InChristAlone]

Discounting cases of rape, proven danger to the mother, or disability of the baby, where I do support abortion; becoming pregnant is ultimately a conscious decision, even if unintended. Because women know that their behavior might lead to pregnancy unless they act responsibly and respect how their body functions.

In the vast majority of pregnancies, it was the woman's choice to do as she pleased with her body, and the result was pregnancy. No one ever coerced her to have intercourse with anybody, so depriving them of an "abortion as contraceptive" doesn't violate the "my body, my choice" slogan.

However, the government bullying the populace to get the jab, getting people fired, etc is more akin to the government raping women and then forcing them to raise the child.

So you agree with abortion for down syndrome and things like that? That's eugenics.

 

[Sitaruîm]

So you agree with abortion for down syndrome and things like that? That's eugenics.

Do you know what it's like to raise a child with a serious disability? A child like that will require the constant attention of the parents, just to support an existence that is predominantly one of suffering; a human that won't be able to relate to those around them in a way that matters. Using a binary to discuss such a nuanced issue is reductionist and lazy. We're not talking about sterilizing people due to the supposed inferiority of their genes here; putting my stance in the same box as those of early 20th century eugenicists is ridiculous.

 

[Perry Staltic]

an existence that is predominantly one of suffering; a human that won't be able to relate to those around them in a way that matters.

Extraordinarily presumptuous. I'm sure a lot of people with Down's Syndrome would disagree with you. What's next on your list, autism?

 

[Sitaruîm]

Extraordinarily presumptuous. I'm sure a lot of people with Down's Syndrome would disagree with you. What's next on your list, autism?

Autism is not congenital, so it's not next on the list.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

Do you know what it's like to raise a child with a serious disability? A child like that will require the constant attention of the parents, just to support an existence that is predominantly one of suffering; a human that won't be able to relate to those around them in a way that matters. Using a binary to discuss such a nuanced issue is reductionist and lazy. We're not talking about sterilizing people due to the supposed inferiority of their genes here; putting my stance in the same box as those of early 20th century eugenicists is ridiculous.

I can shoot a retarded calf in the head. I cannot shoot a retarded preborn in the head (or 30 year old). If I see one, I am mortally obliged to care for it... because I'm a healthy human with life in my bones.

My cousin has a seriously retarded kid that can't develop normally. She's alive today, and the mutual love for all parties involved far surpasses any inconvenience - the paths of our lives are worth the modest modification, for her. A human who can surpass that love, for brutal convenience, is not healthy or well-adjusted, and another unfortunate example of the isolationist/independent modern world spiraling down genocide by vice.

this world would do well to meditate on what Nietzsche meant by: "god is dead... and we have killed him."
(For the record, God's not dead) :)

 

[Whichway?]

Do you know what it's like to raise a child with a serious disability? A child like that will require the constant attention of the parents, just to support an existence that is predominantly one of suffering; a human that won't be able to relate to those around them in a way that matters. Using a binary to discuss such a nuanced issue is reductionist and lazy. We're not talking about sterilizing people due to the supposed inferiority of their genes here; putting my stance in the same box as those of early 20th century eugenicists is ridiculous.

Totally agree. Those on this forum that preach that no pregnancy should be terminated have never had to raise a child with a disability plus they often assume you have the resources (physical, emotional and financial) to do a good job of it, which is often not the case. It’s such a Pollyanna view.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

When will *some* acknowledge that the prolife stance is not one of personal/subjective morality, but a fundamentally different (and reasonably speaking, advanced) philosophy, that states that human life begins at conception or before birth. If fetuses are truly human, it would be as wrong to kill them for convenience, as it is to kill a 5 year old...

This is fundamentally different than some personal morality; if this philosophy is true, then protecting the life of that human was never on par with controlling the parent's body.

This philosophy has never been fleshed out in the public discourse, because it quickly became a political platform in the race to win the culture war (it was never even questioned 200 years ago). None of these ideas have been seriously considered in academia or the courts... abortion was just made the new zeitgeist morality mandate.

Yeah, of course the powerbrokers make this a manipulatable political game... who cares... the second it enters mainstream philosophical thought, of killing/discharging elderly on medicare over a certain age, that'll be a manipulatable political game, too, but that doesn't diminish the importance of adamantly arguing against it...

 

[Whichway?]

I can shoot a retarded calf in the head. I cannot shoot a retarded preborn in the head (or 30 year old). If I see one, I am mortally obliged to care for it... because I'm a healthy human with life in my bones.

My cousin has a seriously retarded kid that can't develop normally. She's alive today, and the mutual love for all parties involved far surpasses any inconvenience - the paths of our lives are worth the modest modification, for her. A human who can surpass that love, for brutal convenience, is not healthy or well-adjusted, and another unfortunate example of the isolationist/independent modern world spiraling down genocide by vice.

Again you are just cherry picking cases where the kids are looked after by responsible parents. It would be great if kids were born to and raised by responsible parents in caring communities, but often they are not.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

Again you are just cherry picking cases where the kids are looked after by responsible parents. It would be great if kids were born to and raised by responsible parents in caring communities, but often they are not.

where there's a will there's a way.

If you disagree with the above quote, you suffer learned helplessness, which means estrogen dominance; I'd suggest going to raypeat.com, where you can learn more about fixing things like hormonal imbalance and restoring things called youth hormones, so you can have an inkling of hope and creativity to work thru a hard situation...

Or, I guess you could just die. Of course, I'm morally apposed to letting someone die because the situation is hard, so I believe in getting you all the help you need.

 

[Sitaruîm]

I can shoot a retarded calf in the head. I cannot shoot a retarded preborn in the head (or 30 year old). If I see one, I am mortally obliged to care for it... because I'm a healthy human with life in my bones.

My cousin has a seriously retarded kid that can't develop normally. She's alive today, and the mutual love for all parties involved far surpasses any inconvenience - the paths of our lives are worth the modest modification, for her. A human who can surpass that love, for brutal convenience, is not healthy or well-adjusted, and another unfortunate example of the isolationist/independent modern world spiraling down genocide by vice.

this world would do well to meditate on what Nietzsche meant by: "god is dead... and we have killed him."
(For the record, God's not dead) :)

I understand that that these struggles can be overcome, but not without a lot of sacrifice. And never did I advocate the someone MUST do X if they find out that there is something wrong with their unborn child. My posture is not that a child must be aborted if it is found out that it's seriously disabled, but that the choice to abort should be there. I think it is hard for people to detach their emotions from the issue, because many of us know disabled people that, for some reason, seem to have an easier time being joyful and all around good human beings.. I too have a family member who is mentally retarded. She is a very happy person and I'm glad that she's around, but the toll it took on my uncle and aunt to raise her cannot be understated. You say: "the mutual love for all parties far surpasses any inconvenience." That's the ideal situation, and I believe it's the same in my relative's case, but I still maintain my position.

 

[BRBsavinWorld]

I understand that that these struggles can be overcome, but not without a lot of sacrifice. And never did I advocate the someone MUST do X if they find out that there is something wrong with their unborn child. My posture is not that a child must be aborted if it is found out that it's seriously disabled, but that the choice to abort should be there. I think it is hard for people to detach their emotions from the issue, because many of us know disabled people that, for some reason, seem to have an easier time being joyful and all around good human beings.. I too have a family member who is mentally retarded. She is a very happy person and I'm glad that she's around, but the toll it took on my uncle and aunt to raise her cannot be understated. You say: "the mutual love for all parties far surpasses any inconvenience." That's the ideal situation, and I believe it's the same in my relative's case, but I still maintain my position.

I guess this is 2 different value systems. Love IS a value system, that changes the way we do things.

dropping the the baby off at a fire department is even an option before kill.