Copper in Parmesan and other Cheese

Rock_V

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Feb 8, 2017
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93
I know a lot of Ray Peat followers eat a good bit of Parmigiano Reggiano and other European cheeses so this information may be of use.

culture: the word on cheese (culturecheesemag.com)

"Wheels made in copper vats contained a higher copper content—5.78 milligrams per kilogram (mg/kg)—versus 0.40 mg/kg in the stainless steel–produced wheels. Previous studies of Alpine cheeses reveal a similar pattern: In 1996, scientists found 12.7 mg/kg of the element in Comté when copper vessels were used yet only 3 mg/kg when they were not. Gruyère usually contains anywhere from 7.6 to 11.7 mg/kg of copper. The reason? Soft, supple copper oxidizes easily. During cheesemaking, then, copper ions leach from the vat and bind to milk proteins, which remain in the cheese."

"The additive likely influences a cheese’s microflora. Like iodine and iron, copper is a trace element affecting the health of all living things. Consuming a certain amount is essential for life, but too little or too much can have harmful effects—on humans and microbes alike. The Finnish researchers discovered that copper inhibited the growth of C. tyrobutyricum, bacteria often present in raw milk that generate undesired swelling, gas holes, and off-flavors in hard cheeses. Ernst Jakob, a researcher at Agroscope in Switzerland, has found similar effects on Swiss cheeses made with raw milk. “Copper stops the development of bacteria responsible for rancid taste,” he says."

"Since different microorganisms have different thresholds for tolerating the element, copper levels could discourage the growth of some species while promoting the proliferation of others. But even as scientists are unraveling these complex biochemical reactions, Edelweiss Creamery’s Workman is adamant the vats provide the ideal ecosystem for the microbes he uses. “Because of its natural ability to influence the cultures,” he says, “copper adds the right flavor profile.”"

Do we think cheese could be considered a good absorbable source of copper, or are there potential downsides to this?
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
21,519
I know a lot of Ray Peat followers eat a good bit of Parmigiano Reggiano and other European cheeses so this information may be of use.

culture: the word on cheese (culturecheesemag.com)

"Wheels made in copper vats contained a higher copper content—5.78 milligrams per kilogram (mg/kg)—versus 0.40 mg/kg in the stainless steel–produced wheels. Previous studies of Alpine cheeses reveal a similar pattern: In 1996, scientists found 12.7 mg/kg of the element in Comté when copper vessels were used yet only 3 mg/kg when they were not. Gruyère usually contains anywhere from 7.6 to 11.7 mg/kg of copper. The reason? Soft, supple copper oxidizes easily. During cheesemaking, then, copper ions leach from the vat and bind to milk proteins, which remain in the cheese."

"The additive likely influences a cheese’s microflora. Like iodine and iron, copper is a trace element affecting the health of all living things. Consuming a certain amount is essential for life, but too little or too much can have harmful effects—on humans and microbes alike. The Finnish researchers discovered that copper inhibited the growth of C. tyrobutyricum, bacteria often present in raw milk that generate undesired swelling, gas holes, and off-flavors in hard cheeses. Ernst Jakob, a researcher at Agroscope in Switzerland, has found similar effects on Swiss cheeses made with raw milk. “Copper stops the development of bacteria responsible for rancid taste,” he says."

"Since different microorganisms have different thresholds for tolerating the element, copper levels could discourage the growth of some species while promoting the proliferation of others. But even as scientists are unraveling these complex biochemical reactions, Edelweiss Creamery’s Workman is adamant the vats provide the ideal ecosystem for the microbes he uses. “Because of its natural ability to influence the cultures,” he says, “copper adds the right flavor profile.”"

Do we think cheese could be considered a good absorbable source of copper, or are there potential downsides to this?
Interesting read Rock_V. At it's highest amounts of copper, Parmesan would give you 12 grams per POUND of cheese compared to 4 ounces of liver giving 16 mg. A couple ounces of parmesan a day would inch our way to something, but none of us can eat a pound of cheese.
 

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Joined
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Interesting read Rock_V. At it's highest amounts of copper, Parmesan would give you 12 grams per POUND of cheese compared to 4 ounces of liver giving 16 mg. A couple ounces of parmesan a day would inch our way to something, but none of us can eat a pound of cheese.
Since responding to your post Rock_V, I have dropped almost all the milk and upped my cheese (rennet only) to 6+ ounces a day and it is feeling better and my stomach is flatter than the milk. I am having it with sugared and salted fresh squeezed and strained orange juice as a meal and I don't feel hungry for hours. I am wondering if it is from lack of tryptophan? I can too now see now how if ate this European, culture and bacteria free, cheese everyday the copper would add up!
 

David90

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Dec 12, 2019
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Location
Germany
Since responding to your post Rock_V, I have dropped almost all the milk and upped my cheese (rennet only) to 6+ ounces a day and it is feeling better and my stomach is flatter than the milk. I am having it with sugared and salted fresh squeezed and strained orange juice as a meal and I don't feel hungry for hours. I am wondering if it is from lack of tryptophan? I can too now see now how if ate this European, culture and bacteria free, cheese everyday the copper would add up!
6 Ounces sounds good. Before i was eating around 150g Everyday. Nowadays more like 100g. But yeah, i can also see that the Copper would add up. But nothing like a good old Ounce or Two of Beef Liver for the Copper....:D
 

facesavant

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Joined
Aug 27, 2022
Messages
88
Location
USA
Since responding to your post Rock_V, I have dropped almost all the milk and upped my cheese (rennet only) to 6+ ounces a day and it is feeling better and my stomach is flatter than the milk. I am having it with sugared and salted fresh squeezed and strained orange juice as a meal and I don't feel hungry for hours. I am wondering if it is from lack of tryptophan? I can too now see now how if ate this European, culture and bacteria free, cheese everyday the copper would add up!
I wanted to ask you since you said lack of tryptophan, which cheese are you using? I was thinking parmigiano reggiano, it seems to have a higher calcium content. I'm curious which cheeses have low tryptophan?
 
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I wanted to ask you since you said lack of tryptophan, which cheese are you using? I was thinking parmigiano reggiano, it seems to have a higher calcium content. I'm curious which cheeses have low tryptophan?
Hi Savant! I am back to whole raw milk and now I get more of my calcium from a real clean cottage cheese which I strain for a couple of days in a coffee filter set in sieve, to get the lactic acid out. I do the same with my whole milk Greek yogurt. For cheese I mostly eat brie, Henri is the usual brand. I only use a rennet only Parmesan for cooking. The taste is too strong otherwise. I eat other cheeses like raw cheddar in my cooking too, a grass fed one. It is just too hard to find cheeses in my stores without all the unwanted stuff in them. I was getting some good rennet only ones from an online company, but I don’t like paying the expensive shipping charges. I cut meat and most egg whites out to cut back on tryptophan. Back in 2021 I was eating differently than I am now and my stomach stays flat all of the time now. I use a lot more bone broth to offset the times I do eat meat, and drink some gelatin when I eat egg whites when I think of it. …

“Although I pointed out a long time ago the antithyroid effects of excessive cysteine and tryptophan from eating only the muscle meats, and have been recommending gelatinous broth at bedtime to stop nocturnal stress, it took me many years to begin to experiment with large amounts of gelatin in my diet. Focusing on the various toxic effects of tryptophan and cysteine, I decided that using commercial gelatin, instead of broth, would be helpful for the experiment. For years I hadn't slept through a whole night without waking, and I was in the habit of having some juice or a little thyroid to help me go back to sleep. The first time I had several grams of gelatin just before bedtime, I slept without interruption for about 9 hours. I mentioned this effect to some friends, and later they told me that friends and relatives of theirs had recovered from long-standing pain problems (arthritic and rheumatic and possibly neurological) in just a few days after taking 10 or 15 grams of gelatin each day." -Ray Peat
 
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mosaic01

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Jun 6, 2016
Messages
439
I was also thinking about traditional Italian pasta, which is made with copper. The dough is pressed in old copper molds in the tradition of the southern Italian pasta manufacturing method.

Pretty problematic. 12 mg of copper per kg of cheese is a pretty high amount.

friends and relatives of theirs had recovered from long-standing pain problems (arthritic and rheumatic and possibly neurological) in just a few days after taking 10 or 15 grams of gelatin each day." -Ray Peat

I can confirm that. I recommended collagen powder to someone (20-30g daily), and her arthritis issues and other skin inflammation problems stopped or improved within weeks.
 
Joined
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Messages
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I was also thinking about traditional Italian pasta, which is made with copper. The dough is pressed in old copper molds in the tradition of the southern Italian pasta manufacturing method.

Someone sent me this video below which partially explains why I feel so light eating true Italian pasta and not the cheap American kind. I also stick to only eating boiled pasta instead of baked. The thinner pasta is better too since the thicker stuff is impossible for the water to get to the starch…


View: https://www.instagram.com/reel/C3uDxXruWJO/?igsh=MWQ1ZGUxMzBkMA==
 
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