Low Toxin Diet Grant Genereux's Theory Of Vitamin A Toxicity

[Pet Peeve]

Blueberry Ketchup Recipe

 

[Yi at LDT]

Book review.

Extinguishing the fires of hell: Like Grant admits, this is a disjointed, rambling, frequently redundant and above all sloppily argued mess of a book that is not likely to convince anyone that is not already curious about the theory, mostly useful to track his train of thought and for some great graphs that he must have taken a lot of effort to put together himself. Still better than most health/nutrition books.

Poisoning for Profits: By comparison this is a g**d****** literary masterpiece, it is alternately absolutely hilarious black comedy - like how in the JesusHolyAllMighty could a drug that is known to cause permanent brain damage, psychosis and suicidal tendencies and is also a (very dangerous) chemotherapy drug still to this day be approved as an acne treatment for teenagers? Alternately very lucid science writing, I'm a PhD in biomedicine and still find myself learning new things about basic cell biology reading this stuff. Its a very enjoyable read so far.

You can really tell the massive improvement in his mental capacity in the writing of the first to the second book.

 

[Blossom]

Blueberry Ketchup Recipe

I made mushroom ketchup last winter.

 

[sunraiser]

@sunraiser

One other thing about the daily sun I get. My temps have dropped quite a bit. I have a waking temp of 97.4 and have not been able to budge that for years. Well not without doing crazy metabolic things that give me insomnia.

I tested my temp the other night before bed and it was 97 even. That is super low for night time, which should easily be 98.5 or above.

I don't feel cold, hands and feet are plenty warm and I am quite comfortable. So something about the sun drops temps for me at least. I have actually felt chills after coming out of a sun bathing session.

That's interesting. I have never cared to measure my temps but I always generally have warm hands and feet and feel warm in the way you describe, despite accutane usage.

Have you considered, or had any urges to do any type of cardio or sprinting exercise?

I have various theories but want to understand better why people feel better doing such a diet - in my mind vitamin A is unequivocally not a poison, but a metabolic stimulant.

I think VA asks for something the body can't metabolise (when "sick") when consumed, therefore making people feel worse. If insulin resistance or iron toxicity are at play then it would suggest magnesium is a big factor, but the answer isn't as simple as ingesting more magnesium obviously.

It's funny because the upper respiratory symptoms you describe fron your vitamin D experiment are similar to ones I've experienced after too much retinyl palmitate in the past, but mine solved quickly after taking some vitamin D.

It really feels like there's a missing step in regaining VA tolerance - it's like, step 1 is to regain function and feel better, step 2 (complete recovery) is a big question mark.

I'd love to know if anyone trying the diet is willing to do some decent, sweat inducing cardio or hiking very regularly (just whatever feels good or is tolerable) as this should hit both factors of insulin resistance and iron or other metal toxicity, which could then hopefully further magnesium metabolism (or whatever the
key rate limiting factors are at the root of it).

Sweating has been key to health for me in the past, at least.

 

[Collden]

Any thoughts on how dairy fat impacts this ? Reading Poisoning for Profits it seems Grant is saying butterfat is actually protective against VA toxicity. Is the issue more with VA added to low-fat dairy products? Maybe why whole dairy has been found to have better associations with health than low-fat dairy?

 

[Pet Peeve]

I made mushroom ketchup last winter.

Was it good?

 

[Blossom]

Was it good?

Yes, the blueberry looks better though.

 

[magnesiumania]

Is this thread really 248 pages long? Obviously ive not read it all but judging from the last page you dont seem to have arrived at a conclusion. Personally i dont believe vit A toxicity can occur from eating natural foods. Retinyl Palmitate however can be toxic as it's merely the storage form of vit A. It is NOT retinol!

Retinol is what loads copper onto cerulopasmin so without it our most imortant protein (and most powerful antioxidant) dont function................think about that.

 

[somuch4food]

Is this thread really 248 pages long? Obviously ive not read it all but judging from the last page you dont seem to have arrived at a conclusion. Personally i dont believe vit A toxicity can occur from eating natural foods. Retinyl Palmitate however can be toxic as it's merely the storage form of vit A. It is NOT retinol!

Retinol is what loads copper onto cerulopasmin so without it our most imortant protein (and most powerful antioxidant) dont function................think about that.

Are you kidding? Vitamin A toxicity from foods is a thing. There are many reports of this very thing in studies. Eating liver can easily lead to toxicity. Polar bear liver is so high in vitamin A that it's toxic in itself, some explorers died from eating it!

The debate is whether or not it's a vitamin at all. This thread has already acknowledged that RDA is probably too high for many and that ideal intake is probably something very personal. There's also the whole other beast that carotenoids are. Conversion to vit A seems to vary quite a bit between individuals.

 

[magnesiumania]

Are you kidding? Vitamin A toxicity from foods is a thing. There are many reports of this very thing in studies. Eating liver can easily lead to toxicity. Polar bear liver is so high in vitamin A that it's toxic in itself, some explorers died from eating it!

The debate is whether or not it's a vitamin at all. This thread has already acknowledged that RDA is probably too high for many and that ideal intake is probably something very personal. There's also the whole other beast that carotenoids are. Conversion to vit A seems to vary quite a bit between individuals.

No im not kidding and id very much like to see the specific studies that show toxicity from eating liver....didt our ancestors eat liver all the time?

According to Morley Robbins retinoic acid is not a vitmin but a hormone rather, much like vitamin D/hormone D.

What does carotenoids have to do with it. You get next to no vitamin A from them (primarily because the conversion require copper, which they lack because they dont have retinol to make the copper bio-available)

 

[Collden]

What is your source that our ancestors ate liver all the time? I think that is just nonsense perpetuated by WAPFers.

Review traditional dishes from cultures around the world, and you'll find that liver or green leafy veggies don't feature prominently in any of them.

 

[magnesiumania]

The "?" means im asking. If i had a good source i wouldent ask. What is WAPFers?

 

[magnesiumania]

The main reason i believe retinol is not a toxin is simply all the science that support my experience. When i have a tablespoon of CLO i usually get a serious boost of energy. (yes i know this forum dont like CLO as it has PUFA)

 

[somuch4food]

No im not kidding and id very much like to see the specific studies that show toxicity from eating liver....didt our ancestors eat liver all the time?

According to Morley Robbins retinoic acid is not a vitmin but a hormone rather, much like vitamin D/hormone D.

What does carotenoids have to do with it. You get next to no vitamin A from them (primarily because the conversion require copper, which they lack because they dont have retinol to make the copper bio-available)

Vitamin A toxicity secondary to excessive intake of yellow-green vegetables, liver and laver. - PubMed - NCBI
The perils of eating polar bear
https://www.enviromedica.com/learn/beef-liver-natures-perfect-food/

You would have to read the books to understand the link with carotenoids. They don't need to be converted to enter the body. They are circulating in the blood and seem to have analog reactions to vitamin A in many individuals with inflammatory health issues. I personally think that it's exactly because they are causing so much inflammation that they are dangerous. The body needs some stress to help with tissue renewal and repair, but with our current lifestyles, we might not need as much vit A as they did in the past when life was simpler if you had a good food supply.

What is your source that our ancestors ate liver all the time? I've been reviewing traditional dishes from cultures around the world, and liver or green/colored veggies don't feature prominently in any of them.

Exactly, there's one liver per animal. You won't feed much of the village with it and colorful fruits/veggies are usually used to make a dish more appealing for the eyes and the taste buds.

From an ancestral perspective, you look to nature to guide you as to how much liver to eat. Imagine your tribe of 25-35 people83 hunted a 1200 pound animal (live weight) with ~25 pounds of organs including about ~12 pounds of liver. Surely you will share this animal and the organ meats/liver will go to the people who need those nutrients the most; the hunters, the pregnant/nursing women,84 the immune compromised – whomever needs them the most at the time. You might get a fraction of this 12-lb liver, divided among many. From this perspective, you can reasonably estimate a few ounces of liver.

https://www.enviromedica.com/learn/beef-liver-natures-perfect-food/

The "?" means im asking. If i had a good source i wouldent ask. What is WAPFers?

WAPFers: Weston A Price Foundation followers, this diet is especially high in vitamin A.

 

[Collden]

The "?" means im asking. If i had a good source i wouldent ask. What is WAPFers?

Just wondering where you got this notion from but I guess its from WAPF.

Its funny how a food that is almost universally detested got elevated as the greatest of superfoods. Or maybe this kind if backwards thinking is actually characteristic of most health-faddism.

 

[Atman]

What is your source that our ancestors ate liver all the time?

Some points to consider:
At least for the last 500 years, liver has been a part of the die of Europeans. Just look at some historical cookbooks.
Today almost nobody (apart from some niche internet communities and older people) eats liver anymore.

These don't fit your theory but they are facts.

 

[magnesiumania]

Just wondering where you got this notion from but I guess its from WAPF.

Its funny how a food that is almost universally detested got elevated as the greatest of superfoods. Or maybe this kind if backwards thinking is actually characteristic of most health-faddism.

Im not sure either but its certainly not WAPF as ive never really looked into it. The idea that we need lots of retinol is basically from Morley Robbins research. Its proven that when people increase retinol intake and copper ceruloplasmin levels increase and that the main focus of my entire diet. I dont even care about PUFA's as long as ceruloplasmin increases. It really is the master regulatory enzyme of our bodies and it REQUIRES retinol to function properly. Without retinol iron cant circulate, gets stuck and cause oxidative stress much worse than the harm PUFA does.

 

[Tarmander]

That's interesting. I have never cared to measure my temps but I always generally have warm hands and feet and feel warm in the way you describe, despite accutane usage.

Have you considered, or had any urges to do any type of cardio or sprinting exercise?

I have various theories but want to understand better why people feel better doing such a diet - in my mind vitamin A is unequivocally not a poison, but a metabolic stimulant.

I think VA asks for something the body can't metabolise (when "sick") when consumed, therefore making people feel worse. If insulin resistance or iron toxicity are at play then it would suggest magnesium is a big factor, but the answer isn't as simple as ingesting more magnesium obviously.

It's funny because the upper respiratory symptoms you describe fron your vitamin D experiment are similar to ones I've experienced after too much retinyl palmitate in the past, but mine solved quickly after taking some vitamin D.

It really feels like there's a missing step in regaining VA tolerance - it's like, step 1 is to regain function and feel better, step 2 (complete recovery) is a big question mark.

I'd love to know if anyone trying the diet is willing to do some decent, sweat inducing cardio or hiking very regularly (just whatever feels good or is tolerable) as this should hit both factors of insulin resistance and iron or other metal toxicity, which could then hopefully further magnesium metabolism (or whatever the
key rate limiting factors are at the root of it).

Sweating has been key to health for me in the past, at least.

I have read people who used vitamin D to get over asthma. So it is very odd to me that my high vitamin D and now subsequent low A experiments caused these issues.

I am in no rush to go to a bunch of hiking as it is getting very hot here. I did do saunas for a couple years which seemed to not do much. I am also sweating quite a bit while sunbathing.

Is this thread really 248 pages long? Obviously ive not read it all but judging from the last page you dont seem to have arrived at a conclusion. Personally i dont believe vit A toxicity can occur from eating natural foods. Retinyl Palmitate however can be toxic as it's merely the storage form of vit A. It is NOT retinol!

Retinol is what loads copper onto cerulopasmin so without it our most imortant protein (and most powerful antioxidant) dont function................think about that.

whoooaaa. I guess we should just end the thread

 

[Collden]

Some points to consider:
At least for the last 500 years, liver has been a part of the die of Europeans. Just look at some historical cookbooks.
Today almost nobody (apart from some niche internet communities and older people) eats liver anymore.

These don't fit your theory but they are facts.

Cookbooks are maybe not the ideal place to get an understanding of what people actually habitually ate as they tend to overemphasize obscure dishes and ingredients that were not firmly ingrained in the oral traditions. People turn to cookbooks when they're looking for something they dont ordinarily make.

Of course various liver preparations are featured in many culinary traditions but that simple fact tells us nothing about how frequently it was consumed.

Even if liver was desired and consumed more frequently in the past this may simply reflect that people back then had greater tolerance for VA due to less environmental exposure. The fact that most modern people instinctively shun liver and loathe the taste might suggest that it is in fact not very good for us.

The only people who do consume a lot of liver these days are misguided health nuts and these are usually the very people who end up inadvertently wrecking their health the most.

 

[magnesiumania]

Tarmander: Jupp, conclusion: Get your retinol and you'll be fine =)